4 ms·

My work-mandated MacBooks have been the worst machines I've ever used. Hardware aside, I honestly don't understand why anyone who writes software would write s

by papaf 6y ago

My work-mandated MacBooks have been the worst machines I've ever used. Hardware aside, I honestly don't understand why anyone who writes software would write software on a closed source OS. The excuse I most often hear is that "they have better things to do than mess with Linux configuration". That's a healthy viewpoint, for say, a scientist or an artist. But if a software developer does not like hacking around with software they are probably in the wrong career. In my opinion, giving up control over your most important tools for a bit of short term convenience is bad economics.

partyboat1586 6y ago
When I was 14yo hacking around in Linux was fun because I had a lot of free time, now I'm an adult and have other obligations I need my work computer to just work. Apple has been getting worse at the 'it just works' stuff but it's still lower maintenance than a customised Linux distro. Its not that I don't enjoy fiddling and tinkering, I still might play with Linux on the weekend, I just can't have it as my daily driver.
- marvinblum 6y ago
  Then don't maintain a customized distro? I use Manjaro at home and Mac at work, and the user experience is far better on Manjaro without any tweaking. Also it's easier to install the developer tools I need, but that depends on your use-case of course.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    Just need to find the right distro. I can't stand Ubuntu because it has too many commercial interests attached and its bloated but it's the safest choice because its the most battle tested. The first thing I notice about Manjaro is that their website layout doesn't work on mobile, call me superficial but it makes me question their attention to detail.
    - tpush 6y ago
      > I can't stand Ubuntu because it has too many commercial interests attached and its bloated [...] But instead you use macOS?
      - partyboat1586 6y ago
        Yeah, it's got less cruft than Ubuntu. Apple doesn't need to put adware into their OS because they make enough money from selling hardware and appstore commissions.
        joshspankit 6y ago
        But what they do do are things like restrict audio and video APIs so that users can’t record the iTunes movies that they purchased.
    - marvinblum 6y ago
      Try Manjaro. I've switched from Ubuntu to Manjaro a few months ago and I don't think I'll ever look back. Latest kernel and Gnome version make a huge difference in performance and stability (that was the main reason I switched, Ubuntu desktop kept breaking for some reason) and Pacman is a dream. I used to just apt update everything, which was nice, but now with snaps you don't know what you get and you sometimes need to download some deb or add a repo. Pacman has everything (when enabling AUT) and I haven't even touched the terminal for it, because the UI is so good. You should give it a shot :)
- tasssko 6y ago
  As a mac user i shifted all my development to use containers for deps management and runtime efficiency. My thought process was this would also translate well to a productive move to Linux (i have similar concerns to you) and it just so happens to also work with my cicd platform. The biggest pain on linux is dependency management across a variety of languages and software stacks. I believe you can be productive on Linux today with a similar approach.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    I have tried using Docker but I find it's just a little too resource intensive. I prefer to have a local Postgres instance for development and then deploy to a test environment to check it will work on the real infrastructure.
- diffeomorphism 6y ago
  So buy a dell xps/precision or a thinkpad or any other laptop where you can have linux installed out of the box? Otherwise the fair comparison would be to a hackintosh, which would probably much more work.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    I have a hackintosh for iOS development (faster build times than a MacBook without paying for a MacPro). It's a lot of work to get it up and running, maybe 8 - 12 hours if you've never done it before plus an additional 12 hours getting Bluetooth, WiFi, USB mapping and iMessage working but it's worth it. Once it is up and running it does 'just work' plus it's a hell of a lot cheaper. The only thing you have to worry about is doing it all again in 6-12 months if you want to stay on the latest OSX.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  I think the fiddling and tinkering thing is usually massively overstated. Linux can be a perfectly reliable daily driver with no regular tinkering. Windows is the high-maintenance daily driver IME.
  - partyboat1586 6y ago
    I guess it's been a while. Last time I played around with Linux properly was around 2009. Having worked with Ubuntu servers as recently as 2018 though I did find getting python 3.7 up and running a bit of a pain, with differences in the process for minor versions of Ubuntu.
    - btschaegg 6y ago
      Not to diminish any of your problems; and I'm aware that this is not (yet) reality in most places, but: 1.) I absolutely agree on the Ubuntu front (though I don't believe for a second that things are better elsewhere. E.g.: Python on Windows is way worse in my experience). But I dislike Ubuntu (and Debian, for that matter) for many related experiences I had in the past. 2.) I'd say, though, that you're missing out on good containerization solutions if you're wrestling with Python installations on a server distribution. 3.) Most importantly: Where things like Docker or LXC don't apply (or don't apply as much; like development/desktop usage), the single best concept I've encountered so far would be the way NixOS and Guix handle installations. I sincerely hope that model will take off in the next couple of years. And I'm pretty sure that if it takes off, it will be on either Linux (most likely) or BSD.
      - partyboat1586 6y ago
        I've worked with Docker before but I found it too resource intensive on my local machine. I now use docker to get consistent deployments but for local dev I find it too heavy. I'll have to look into NixOS and Guix
wasyl 6y ago
> if a software developer does not like hacking around with software they are probably in the wrong career This is some gatekeeping right here. There's a lot more to developing software than hacking and dealing with low level linux configuration just to get my graphics and sound working at the same time after a system update
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > ...just to get my graphics and sound working at the same time after a system update Sounds like you’ve never used a modern Arch based distro. In 2 years of using Manjaro as my daily driver that’s never happened to me.
hyko 6y ago
Writing software for a closed source OS.
throwaway936482 6y ago
Because my customers are 90% on Windows and most of the rest are on Mac and it's them I need to worry about. Hence I develop in Windows and test on Mac.
danielscrubs 6y ago
Have you actually contributed to os software you still use daily? Would be interesting to hear which one you choose and how you started.

by papaf 6y ago

partyboat1586 6y ago

When I was 14yo hacking around in Linux was fun because I had a lot of free time, now I'm an adult and have other obligations I need my work computer to just work. Apple has been getting worse at the 'it just works' stuff but it's still lower maintenance than a customised Linux distro. Its not that I don't enjoy fiddling and tinkering, I still might play with Linux on the weekend, I just can't have it as my daily driver.

marvinblum 6y ago
Then don't maintain a customized distro? I use Manjaro at home and Mac at work, and the user experience is far better on Manjaro without any tweaking. Also it's easier to install the developer tools I need, but that depends on your use-case of course.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  Just need to find the right distro. I can't stand Ubuntu because it has too many commercial interests attached and its bloated but it's the safest choice because its the most battle tested. The first thing I notice about Manjaro is that their website layout doesn't work on mobile, call me superficial but it makes me question their attention to detail.
  - tpush 6y ago
    > I can't stand Ubuntu because it has too many commercial interests attached and its bloated [...] But instead you use macOS?
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      Yeah, it's got less cruft than Ubuntu. Apple doesn't need to put adware into their OS because they make enough money from selling hardware and appstore commissions.
      - joshspankit 6y ago
        But what they do do are things like restrict audio and video APIs so that users can’t record the iTunes movies that they purchased.
  - marvinblum 6y ago
    Try Manjaro. I've switched from Ubuntu to Manjaro a few months ago and I don't think I'll ever look back. Latest kernel and Gnome version make a huge difference in performance and stability (that was the main reason I switched, Ubuntu desktop kept breaking for some reason) and Pacman is a dream. I used to just apt update everything, which was nice, but now with snaps you don't know what you get and you sometimes need to download some deb or add a repo. Pacman has everything (when enabling AUT) and I haven't even touched the terminal for it, because the UI is so good. You should give it a shot :)
tasssko 6y ago
As a mac user i shifted all my development to use containers for deps management and runtime efficiency. My thought process was this would also translate well to a productive move to Linux (i have similar concerns to you) and it just so happens to also work with my cicd platform. The biggest pain on linux is dependency management across a variety of languages and software stacks. I believe you can be productive on Linux today with a similar approach.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  I have tried using Docker but I find it's just a little too resource intensive. I prefer to have a local Postgres instance for development and then deploy to a test environment to check it will work on the real infrastructure.
diffeomorphism 6y ago
So buy a dell xps/precision or a thinkpad or any other laptop where you can have linux installed out of the box? Otherwise the fair comparison would be to a hackintosh, which would probably much more work.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  I have a hackintosh for iOS development (faster build times than a MacBook without paying for a MacPro). It's a lot of work to get it up and running, maybe 8 - 12 hours if you've never done it before plus an additional 12 hours getting Bluetooth, WiFi, USB mapping and iMessage working but it's worth it. Once it is up and running it does 'just work' plus it's a hell of a lot cheaper. The only thing you have to worry about is doing it all again in 6-12 months if you want to stay on the latest OSX.
ubercow13 6y ago
I think the fiddling and tinkering thing is usually massively overstated. Linux can be a perfectly reliable daily driver with no regular tinkering. Windows is the high-maintenance daily driver IME.
- partyboat1586 6y ago
  I guess it's been a while. Last time I played around with Linux properly was around 2009. Having worked with Ubuntu servers as recently as 2018 though I did find getting python 3.7 up and running a bit of a pain, with differences in the process for minor versions of Ubuntu.
  - btschaegg 6y ago
    Not to diminish any of your problems; and I'm aware that this is not (yet) reality in most places, but: 1.) I absolutely agree on the Ubuntu front (though I don't believe for a second that things are better elsewhere. E.g.: Python on Windows is way worse in my experience). But I dislike Ubuntu (and Debian, for that matter) for many related experiences I had in the past. 2.) I'd say, though, that you're missing out on good containerization solutions if you're wrestling with Python installations on a server distribution. 3.) Most importantly: Where things like Docker or LXC don't apply (or don't apply as much; like development/desktop usage), the single best concept I've encountered so far would be the way NixOS and Guix handle installations. I sincerely hope that model will take off in the next couple of years. And I'm pretty sure that if it takes off, it will be on either Linux (most likely) or BSD.
    - partyboat1586 6y ago
      I've worked with Docker before but I found it too resource intensive on my local machine. I now use docker to get consistent deployments but for local dev I find it too heavy. I'll have to look into NixOS and Guix

wasyl 6y ago

> if a software developer does not like hacking around with software they are probably in the wrong career This is some gatekeeping right here. There's a lot more to developing software than hacking and dealing with low level linux configuration just to get my graphics and sound working at the same time after a system update

wayneftw 6y ago
> ...just to get my graphics and sound working at the same time after a system update Sounds like you’ve never used a modern Arch based distro. In 2 years of using Manjaro as my daily driver that’s never happened to me.

hyko 6y ago

Writing software for a closed source OS.

throwaway936482 6y ago

Because my customers are 90% on Windows and most of the rest are on Mac and it's them I need to worry about. Hence I develop in Windows and test on Mac.

danielscrubs 6y ago

Have you actually contributed to os software you still use daily? Would be interesting to hear which one you choose and how you started.