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I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed

I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?

bigbubba 6y ago
Particularly American social media companies. Until the EU bans these, I don't think there is much hope for European social media companies which actually respect EU laws and regulations (American social media companies obviously have nothing but contempt for these regulations and will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged.) Just ban them already. Hobbling these corporations would help Americans too, for whom legislative reform seems like a pipe dream. Anything that harms these corporations abroad will negatively impact their ability to lobby American politicians. That might not be much, but it'll be better than the status quo.
- aerosmile 6y ago
  "will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged" - if you owned your own business, would you be welcoming regulation that reduced your chances of survival? So this is clearly written by someone who doesn't run their own business. Fair enough - there are always going to be many more people who receive salaries than those who pay them. "Hobbling these corporations would help" - same as above, zero empathy for people who are trying to pay your salary. Fair enough - it sucks to work hard and watch your employer get rich off of your work.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    The filthy rich often don't care about the social externalities of their corrosive businesses because their wealth insulates them from the harm they cause. Don't waste your empathy on Facebook executives.
    - aerosmile 6y ago
      Sure, there is a certain number of people out there with more money than is perhaps justifiable. So go ahead and address that. That has nothing to do with imposing regulation on everyone. What does being filthy rich have to do with running a small business, working really hard to make ends meet, and then having to pay $10k to comply with GDPR? What a wonderful idea - let's stick it to Facebook by requiring millions of small businesses around the world to comply with something that most small businesses cannot accomplish on their own. And no, 99.99999% of those businesses are not selling anyone's data, but instead they are simply selling and shipping physical goods using... you guessed it - their customers' personally identifiable information [0], which is so horrible and should be strictly regulated so we can sue those businesses and force them into bankruptcy lest they spend time and money working on this "filthy rich people" trap. [0] https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-studies/mailers-gdpr-compliance.html https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-stu... "You may collect much of that data digitally, but the minute you print it on a piece of paper and mail it to a customer, you have to make sure you have the customer’s permission to communicate about that information with them, and that you’re adequately protecting their data in the process."
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        Can you provide evidence for your claimed $10k to comply with GDPR? Every time I see details of the survellience industry in the US, I get more and more greatful for GDPR.
        aerosmile 6y ago
        That was the exact quote we received (and paid) from redcloveradvisors.com. We had one other quote that was in the same range.
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        OK, that makes more sense (I thought that was the technical cost, rather than consulting cost).
Aachen 6y ago
> Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies? One reason could be because that better fits our ethics. We might not have to lower ourselves to their level to have a competitive economy. I'm not saying we have to be passive but "playing hardball" is usually a way to suggest the most extreme measure possible and I'm not sure this inequality is that bad. I'm much more worried about things like child labor and other issues China still has.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >One reason could be because that better fits our ethics What "ethics"? This is Europe, of the conquest of the Americas, the colonization of the world, WWI and WWII, and so on up to 2020, we're talking about, not Mother Teresa. The same countries who still keep colonies, run things in post-colonial neo-colonies, and fought wars until the 1960s to keep their grabs...
  - guitarbill 6y ago
    This doesn't automatically invalidate things like healthcare, consumer rights and protections, environmental protections, free/affordable education, etc that are strong in Europe and people generally care about (to varying degrees though). There are no perfect countries, and you could argue e.g. New Zealand is setting the standard pretty high nowadays. But it isn't like those ideas aren't in some way useful - not just to Europeans, but also for other countries to cherry-pick or iterate on. Anyway, pretty off topic, but the argument bad things = everything is tainted doesn't hold for me, especially since people born after the 1960s now includes 50 year-olds and below
    - tuatoru 6y ago
      > you could argue e.g. New Zealand is setting the standard pretty high nowadays. Only until you look closely. NZ has very high levels of inequality (children living below the poverty line, and Maori and Polynesian people are incarcerated more, receive less medical care, and have poorer health and shorter lives than the colonisers and recent immigrants. More qualitatively they are also systematically discriminated against both by government institutions and by employers. Me, I'm a child of Dutch immigrants in the 1950s, so I just see this among friends, it doesn't affect me personally. It's sad if NZ is the gold standard.
kanox 6y ago
Does the EU even have the legal tools to ban TikTok? It's a media company that largely complies with applicable laws, banning it because "it's from China" would be a major abuse. People have raised the same issue regarding Trump banning TikTok and the legal basis seems to some national security law from the 80s? I believe governments should not be able to ban TikTok.
- rat9988 6y ago
  There are abusable security laws in every country, no worries here.
- esolyt 6y ago
  Well, unfortunately everything is so political these days. Principles or potential legal precedents are barely being discussed at all.
- kyriakos 6y ago
  What exactly is tiktok doing that's illegal and is different from what Facebook does? Specifically if you are not American isn't it all the same?
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  The EU does have trade barriers to protect its own industries, there is no reason they couldn't be extended to social media.
coldtea 6y ago
Well, the Chinese have some historical reasons to be cautious as they had been invaded a few times by the Europeans, whereas they hadn't done the revervse themselves... Plus the whole "colonization" thing, which included Europeans invading and running 2/3rds of the world (including putting the pressure on Japan and China).
cblconfederate 6y ago
The chinese internet is closed, not their entire market. Even if the internet was open, imho it would be a hard market to dominate as there is a cultural gap that is not easy to fill Meanwhile, europe and china have great trade relationships in just about everything, china invests in europe (especially in european countries that cant find investment elsewhere) and europeans invest in china. I have increasingly the impression that China is a security threat to the US, but its not seen as such in europe.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  > The chinese internet is closed, not their entire market. Even if the internet was open, imho it would be a hard market to dominate as there is a cultural gap that is not easy to fill For some things, maybe. But I had the good fortune of experiencing Chinese Google before it was banned, which was orders of magnitude better than its Chinese competitor (Baidu).
3np 6y ago
We don't censor for political or economic reasons. I hope it stays that way.

I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?

bigbubba 6y ago

Particularly American social media companies. Until the EU bans these, I don't think there is much hope for European social media companies which actually respect EU laws and regulations (American social media companies obviously have nothing but contempt for these regulations and will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged.) Just ban them already. Hobbling these corporations would help Americans too, for whom legislative reform seems like a pipe dream. Anything that harms these corporations abroad will negatively impact their ability to lobby American politicians. That might not be much, but it'll be better than the status quo.

aerosmile 6y ago
"will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged" - if you owned your own business, would you be welcoming regulation that reduced your chances of survival? So this is clearly written by someone who doesn't run their own business. Fair enough - there are always going to be many more people who receive salaries than those who pay them. "Hobbling these corporations would help" - same as above, zero empathy for people who are trying to pay your salary. Fair enough - it sucks to work hard and watch your employer get rich off of your work.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  The filthy rich often don't care about the social externalities of their corrosive businesses because their wealth insulates them from the harm they cause. Don't waste your empathy on Facebook executives.
  - aerosmile 6y ago
    Sure, there is a certain number of people out there with more money than is perhaps justifiable. So go ahead and address that. That has nothing to do with imposing regulation on everyone. What does being filthy rich have to do with running a small business, working really hard to make ends meet, and then having to pay $10k to comply with GDPR? What a wonderful idea - let's stick it to Facebook by requiring millions of small businesses around the world to comply with something that most small businesses cannot accomplish on their own. And no, 99.99999% of those businesses are not selling anyone's data, but instead they are simply selling and shipping physical goods using... you guessed it - their customers' personally identifiable information [0], which is so horrible and should be strictly regulated so we can sue those businesses and force them into bankruptcy lest they spend time and money working on this "filthy rich people" trap. [0] https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-studies/mailers-gdpr-compliance.html https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-stu... "You may collect much of that data digitally, but the minute you print it on a piece of paper and mail it to a customer, you have to make sure you have the customer’s permission to communicate about that information with them, and that you’re adequately protecting their data in the process."
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      Can you provide evidence for your claimed $10k to comply with GDPR? Every time I see details of the survellience industry in the US, I get more and more greatful for GDPR.
      - aerosmile 6y ago
        That was the exact quote we received (and paid) from redcloveradvisors.com. We had one other quote that was in the same range.
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        OK, that makes more sense (I thought that was the technical cost, rather than consulting cost).

Aachen 6y ago

> Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies? One reason could be because that better fits our ethics. We might not have to lower ourselves to their level to have a competitive economy. I'm not saying we have to be passive but "playing hardball" is usually a way to suggest the most extreme measure possible and I'm not sure this inequality is that bad. I'm much more worried about things like child labor and other issues China still has.

coldtea 6y ago
>One reason could be because that better fits our ethics What "ethics"? This is Europe, of the conquest of the Americas, the colonization of the world, WWI and WWII, and so on up to 2020, we're talking about, not Mother Teresa. The same countries who still keep colonies, run things in post-colonial neo-colonies, and fought wars until the 1960s to keep their grabs...
- guitarbill 6y ago
  This doesn't automatically invalidate things like healthcare, consumer rights and protections, environmental protections, free/affordable education, etc that are strong in Europe and people generally care about (to varying degrees though). There are no perfect countries, and you could argue e.g. New Zealand is setting the standard pretty high nowadays. But it isn't like those ideas aren't in some way useful - not just to Europeans, but also for other countries to cherry-pick or iterate on. Anyway, pretty off topic, but the argument bad things = everything is tainted doesn't hold for me, especially since people born after the 1960s now includes 50 year-olds and below
  - tuatoru 6y ago
    > you could argue e.g. New Zealand is setting the standard pretty high nowadays. Only until you look closely. NZ has very high levels of inequality (children living below the poverty line, and Maori and Polynesian people are incarcerated more, receive less medical care, and have poorer health and shorter lives than the colonisers and recent immigrants. More qualitatively they are also systematically discriminated against both by government institutions and by employers. Me, I'm a child of Dutch immigrants in the 1950s, so I just see this among friends, it doesn't affect me personally. It's sad if NZ is the gold standard.

kanox 6y ago

Does the EU even have the legal tools to ban TikTok? It's a media company that largely complies with applicable laws, banning it because "it's from China" would be a major abuse. People have raised the same issue regarding Trump banning TikTok and the legal basis seems to some national security law from the 80s? I believe governments should not be able to ban TikTok.

rat9988 6y ago
There are abusable security laws in every country, no worries here.
esolyt 6y ago
Well, unfortunately everything is so political these days. Principles or potential legal precedents are barely being discussed at all.
kyriakos 6y ago
What exactly is tiktok doing that's illegal and is different from what Facebook does? Specifically if you are not American isn't it all the same?
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
The EU does have trade barriers to protect its own industries, there is no reason they couldn't be extended to social media.

coldtea 6y ago

Well, the Chinese have some historical reasons to be cautious as they had been invaded a few times by the Europeans, whereas they hadn't done the revervse themselves... Plus the whole "colonization" thing, which included Europeans invading and running 2/3rds of the world (including putting the pressure on Japan and China).

cblconfederate 6y ago

The chinese internet is closed, not their entire market. Even if the internet was open, imho it would be a hard market to dominate as there is a cultural gap that is not easy to fill Meanwhile, europe and china have great trade relationships in just about everything, china invests in europe (especially in european countries that cant find investment elsewhere) and europeans invest in china. I have increasingly the impression that China is a security threat to the US, but its not seen as such in europe.

nmfisher 6y ago
> The chinese internet is closed, not their entire market. Even if the internet was open, imho it would be a hard market to dominate as there is a cultural gap that is not easy to fill For some things, maybe. But I had the good fortune of experiencing Chinese Google before it was banned, which was orders of magnitude better than its Chinese competitor (Baidu).

3np 6y ago

We don't censor for political or economic reasons. I hope it stays that way.