7 ms·

This sums up how I feel about the whole tiktok/huawei thing as a European. An interesting part of it not mentioned in the article is how the USA also pressures

by Aachen 6y ago

This sums up how I feel about the whole tiktok/huawei thing as a European. An interesting part of it not mentioned in the article is how the USA also pressures European countries into applying the same rules. And never for the reason "China has some horrible concentration camp problems that we, as a western country upholding ideals of freedom, want them to change and we need more pressure" but just for their own vague "national security" which to my eyes means economic reasons.

UweSchmidt 6y ago
The national security concerns are of course real and massive; imagine what you can do if you can reach every single individual of another country with personalized content, and collect the most insanely detailed information on each of these individuals. This is the next level, superseding many/most other means of power.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  What "insanely detailed" information are you concerned about? Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed" information being collected by US companies? If not, what differentiates your concern when the information goes to foreign companies?
  - HenryKissinger 6y ago
    > Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed" information being collected by US companies? No. > If not, what differentiates your concern when the information goes to foreign companies? Because the US govt can be trusted but the Chinese govt can't. America is a liberal democracy seeking world peace. China is an Orwellian nightmare of a single-party authoritarian dictatorship. A world under US dominion (e.g the 1990s) would be a paradise. A world under Chinese dominion would be a living hell. I would rather my data be in the hands of the National Security Agency than the People's Liberation Army. I realize that pro-US views aren't popular on HN, but I couldn't care less. For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      How might this work? Could you detail what information the People's Liberation Army might collect, and how they might use it to enact your fears? Please be as specific as you can.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      A comment from a dude named "HenryKissinger" talking about how the US can be trusted on human rights. Golden.
    - 9dev 6y ago
      Has it ever occurred to you that your picture of the world is absolutely black and white, yet there’s no such thing as absolutes in nature? This isn’t snark by the way, I’d just like to encourage you to take off your star-spangled glasses sometimes...
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Because the US govt can be trusted but the Chinese govt can't. America is a liberal democracy seeking world peace. A democracy still has the full capacity to do the worst damage to foreign countries for their national interests. We know that all the way back to the Athenian Democracy. It's "democracy at home, fuck the others to advance our well-being abroad". The US had bombed, invaded, toppled governments, supported dictatorships, etc. countries all over the world, not sure where it got the moral upper hand. Heck, using the name "HenryKissinger" as if it's a good thing, says it all. If it's irony, then, well, you already know my point. >For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden. Which means squat. Democrats have been as bad, if not worse, offenders as Republicans when it comes to foreign wars and furthering US interests.
    - approxim8ion 6y ago
      > For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden. I'm curious to know what you think that clarification achieves for you.
  - UweSchmidt 6y ago
    I am equally concerned about data collection by any and all companies and governments - these are being discussed regularly. The potential international/cyber warfare aspect seems to have been ignored so far. "Using our arsenal of forward deployed apps, how would population of country X feel if we took back that piece of land that is ours, and how could we make them see things our way?"
- CapitalistCartr 6y ago
  No need to imagine, US companies and the NSA have been doing this for years. You've pretty much described the business model of major "Social Media" companies.
- Aachen 6y ago
  > imagine what you can do if you can reach every single individual of another country with personalized content Are you sure you're not talking about google.com here? Way more people across way more ages use that than tiktok and it also does tracking for the purpose of personalization. Your reasoning would result in banning Google products (from the Play Store controlling most mobile computers across the planet to Gmail and YouTube) from all countries except the USA, and to a lesser extent banning Facebook products, Apple products, etc. Tiktok barely makes it onto the radar compared to those.
  - creato 6y ago
    The main country that feels threatened by google and the play store does in fact ban them.
kryptiskt 6y ago
I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Particularly American social media companies. Until the EU bans these, I don't think there is much hope for European social media companies which actually respect EU laws and regulations (American social media companies obviously have nothing but contempt for these regulations and will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged.) Just ban them already. Hobbling these corporations would help Americans too, for whom legislative reform seems like a pipe dream. Anything that harms these corporations abroad will negatively impact their ability to lobby American politicians. That might not be much, but it'll be better than the status quo.
  - aerosmile 6y ago
    "will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged" - if you owned your own business, would you be welcoming regulation that reduced your chances of survival? So this is clearly written by someone who doesn't run their own business. Fair enough - there are always going to be many more people who receive salaries than those who pay them. "Hobbling these corporations would help" - same as above, zero empathy for people who are trying to pay your salary. Fair enough - it sucks to work hard and watch your employer get rich off of your work.
    - bigbubba 6y ago
      The filthy rich often don't care about the social externalities of their corrosive businesses because their wealth insulates them from the harm they cause. Don't waste your empathy on Facebook executives.
      - aerosmile 6y ago
        Sure, there is a certain number of people out there with more money than is perhaps justifiable. So go ahead and address that. That has nothing to do with imposing regulation on everyone. What does being filthy rich have to do with running a small business, working really hard to make ends meet, and then having to pay $10k to comply with GDPR? What a wonderful idea - let's stick it to Facebook by requiring millions of small businesses around the world to comply with something that most small businesses cannot accomplish on their own. And no, 99.99999% of those businesses are not selling anyone's data, but instead they are simply selling and shipping physical goods using... you guessed it - their customers' personally identifiable information [0], which is so horrible and should be strictly regulated so we can sue those businesses and force them into bankruptcy lest they spend time and money working on this "filthy rich people" trap. [0] https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-studies/mailers-gdpr-compliance.html https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-stu... "You may collect much of that data digitally, but the minute you print it on a piece of paper and mail it to a customer, you have to make sure you have the customer’s permission to communicate about that information with them, and that you’re adequately protecting their data in the process."
PestoDiRucola 6y ago
> China has some horrible concentration camp problems that we, as a western country upholding ideals of freedom, want them to change and we need more pressure I mean, it would be ironic if they would give this reasoning, considering the fact that the US currently has its own version of concentration camps which we, as western countries upholding ideals of freedom, should want to change.
- Aachen 6y ago
  I'm not actually aware of the USA having concentration camps specifically. I know of some human rights issues, though, so for the sake of argument I'll assume this is a thing. Nevertheless, hypocritical or not, it would be better (from a worldsuck perspective) to decrease these issues in China than to not do that. And isn't the issue much more widespread in China than in the USA? Looking for "concentration camp USA" on DDG, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, it comes up with some site about customs and border patrol stations where refugees are imprisoned in for-profit facilities. Is that what you are referring to?
  - lixtra 6y ago
    I guess GP is talking about Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib like prisons. While you can argue if you call that a concentration camp, it’s strange how fast people forget.
    - Aachen 6y ago
      I know of Guantanamo but did people have to work there? From my impression it was a prison, not a labor camp, but it has been a few years so I might be fuzzy on the details.
      - fvdessen 6y ago
        Guantanamo is a torture camp. For the forced labor, look at the private prison industry.
  - 6y ago
baryphonic 6y ago
> This sums up how I feel about the whole tiktok/huawei thing as a European. An interesting part of it not mentioned in the article is how the USA also pressures European countries into applying the same rules. The US has a treaty obligation to protect (most) European countries militarily, particularly from Russia but to a lesser extent from China and other countries in Asia. This is a partnership of course, and America's European friends contribute, but the bulk is still borne by the US for obvious reasons (gigantic military budget, global deployment, desire to preserve peace between France, Germany and the rest of the continent). All of that is to say, for better or worse, the US feels that it can apply pressure. Brussels may not like it, but Washington knows Europe will choose America to Putin's Russia or Communist China most of the time.

by Aachen 6y ago

UweSchmidt 6y ago

The national security concerns are of course real and massive; imagine what you can do if you can reach every single individual of another country with personalized content, and collect the most insanely detailed information on each of these individuals. This is the next level, superseding many/most other means of power.

wombatmobile 6y ago
What "insanely detailed" information are you concerned about? Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed" information being collected by US companies? If not, what differentiates your concern when the information goes to foreign companies?
- HenryKissinger 6y ago
  > Are you as concerned about this "insanely detailed" information being collected by US companies? No. > If not, what differentiates your concern when the information goes to foreign companies? Because the US govt can be trusted but the Chinese govt can't. America is a liberal democracy seeking world peace. China is an Orwellian nightmare of a single-party authoritarian dictatorship. A world under US dominion (e.g the 1990s) would be a paradise. A world under Chinese dominion would be a living hell. I would rather my data be in the hands of the National Security Agency than the People's Liberation Army. I realize that pro-US views aren't popular on HN, but I couldn't care less. For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    How might this work? Could you detail what information the People's Liberation Army might collect, and how they might use it to enact your fears? Please be as specific as you can.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    A comment from a dude named "HenryKissinger" talking about how the US can be trusted on human rights. Golden.
  - 9dev 6y ago
    Has it ever occurred to you that your picture of the world is absolutely black and white, yet there’s no such thing as absolutes in nature? This isn’t snark by the way, I’d just like to encourage you to take off your star-spangled glasses sometimes...
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Because the US govt can be trusted but the Chinese govt can't. America is a liberal democracy seeking world peace. A democracy still has the full capacity to do the worst damage to foreign countries for their national interests. We know that all the way back to the Athenian Democracy. It's "democracy at home, fuck the others to advance our well-being abroad". The US had bombed, invaded, toppled governments, supported dictatorships, etc. countries all over the world, not sure where it got the moral upper hand. Heck, using the name "HenryKissinger" as if it's a good thing, says it all. If it's irony, then, well, you already know my point. >For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden. Which means squat. Democrats have been as bad, if not worse, offenders as Republicans when it comes to foreign wars and furthering US interests.
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    > For the record, I have a college degree, I'm in my late twenties, I was raised in a liberal household, I'm a liberal, I have no religious beliefs, and I'm voting for Joe Biden. I'm curious to know what you think that clarification achieves for you.
- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  I am equally concerned about data collection by any and all companies and governments - these are being discussed regularly. The potential international/cyber warfare aspect seems to have been ignored so far. "Using our arsenal of forward deployed apps, how would population of country X feel if we took back that piece of land that is ours, and how could we make them see things our way?"
CapitalistCartr 6y ago
No need to imagine, US companies and the NSA have been doing this for years. You've pretty much described the business model of major "Social Media" companies.
Aachen 6y ago
> imagine what you can do if you can reach every single individual of another country with personalized content Are you sure you're not talking about google.com here? Way more people across way more ages use that than tiktok and it also does tracking for the purpose of personalization. Your reasoning would result in banning Google products (from the Play Store controlling most mobile computers across the planet to Gmail and YouTube) from all countries except the USA, and to a lesser extent banning Facebook products, Apple products, etc. Tiktok barely makes it onto the radar compared to those.
- creato 6y ago
  The main country that feels threatened by google and the play store does in fact ban them.

kryptiskt 6y ago

I wish Europe would have the guts to play hardball with China as well as the US. Why should we allow a Chinese social network when the Chinese market is closed for foreign companies?

bigbubba 6y ago
Particularly American social media companies. Until the EU bans these, I don't think there is much hope for European social media companies which actually respect EU laws and regulations (American social media companies obviously have nothing but contempt for these regulations and will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged.) Just ban them already. Hobbling these corporations would help Americans too, for whom legislative reform seems like a pipe dream. Anything that harms these corporations abroad will negatively impact their ability to lobby American politicians. That might not be much, but it'll be better than the status quo.
- aerosmile 6y ago
  "will dig in their heels for every inch they're dragged" - if you owned your own business, would you be welcoming regulation that reduced your chances of survival? So this is clearly written by someone who doesn't run their own business. Fair enough - there are always going to be many more people who receive salaries than those who pay them. "Hobbling these corporations would help" - same as above, zero empathy for people who are trying to pay your salary. Fair enough - it sucks to work hard and watch your employer get rich off of your work.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    The filthy rich often don't care about the social externalities of their corrosive businesses because their wealth insulates them from the harm they cause. Don't waste your empathy on Facebook executives.
    - aerosmile 6y ago
      Sure, there is a certain number of people out there with more money than is perhaps justifiable. So go ahead and address that. That has nothing to do with imposing regulation on everyone. What does being filthy rich have to do with running a small business, working really hard to make ends meet, and then having to pay $10k to comply with GDPR? What a wonderful idea - let's stick it to Facebook by requiring millions of small businesses around the world to comply with something that most small businesses cannot accomplish on their own. And no, 99.99999% of those businesses are not selling anyone's data, but instead they are simply selling and shipping physical goods using... you guessed it - their customers' personally identifiable information [0], which is so horrible and should be strictly regulated so we can sue those businesses and force them into bankruptcy lest they spend time and money working on this "filthy rich people" trap. [0] https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-studies/mailers-gdpr-compliance.html https://www.pitneybowes.com/us/shipping-and-mailing/case-stu... "You may collect much of that data digitally, but the minute you print it on a piece of paper and mail it to a customer, you have to make sure you have the customer’s permission to communicate about that information with them, and that you’re adequately protecting their data in the process."

PestoDiRucola 6y ago

> China has some horrible concentration camp problems that we, as a western country upholding ideals of freedom, want them to change and we need more pressure I mean, it would be ironic if they would give this reasoning, considering the fact that the US currently has its own version of concentration camps which we, as western countries upholding ideals of freedom, should want to change.

Aachen 6y ago
I'm not actually aware of the USA having concentration camps specifically. I know of some human rights issues, though, so for the sake of argument I'll assume this is a thing. Nevertheless, hypocritical or not, it would be better (from a worldsuck perspective) to decrease these issues in China than to not do that. And isn't the issue much more widespread in China than in the USA? Looking for "concentration camp USA" on DDG, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, it comes up with some site about customs and border patrol stations where refugees are imprisoned in for-profit facilities. Is that what you are referring to?
- lixtra 6y ago
  I guess GP is talking about Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib like prisons. While you can argue if you call that a concentration camp, it’s strange how fast people forget.
  - Aachen 6y ago
    I know of Guantanamo but did people have to work there? From my impression it was a prison, not a labor camp, but it has been a few years so I might be fuzzy on the details.
    - fvdessen 6y ago
      Guantanamo is a torture camp. For the forced labor, look at the private prison industry.
- 6y ago

baryphonic 6y ago

> This sums up how I feel about the whole tiktok/huawei thing as a European. An interesting part of it not mentioned in the article is how the USA also pressures European countries into applying the same rules. The US has a treaty obligation to protect (most) European countries militarily, particularly from Russia but to a lesser extent from China and other countries in Asia. This is a partnership of course, and America's European friends contribute, but the bulk is still borne by the US for obvious reasons (gigantic military budget, global deployment, desire to preserve peace between France, Germany and the rest of the continent). All of that is to say, for better or worse, the US feels that it can apply pressure. Brussels may not like it, but Washington knows Europe will choose America to Putin's Russia or Communist China most of the time.