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Google (like Apple) is trying to claim that the only harm Epic has suffered is fortnite being kicked off the play store. That's not how Epic see it. Epic think

by phire 6y ago

Google (like Apple) is trying to claim that the only harm Epic has suffered is fortnite being kicked off the play store. That's not how Epic see it. Epic think the harm is that they are unable to do payments the way they want and smoothly run their own games store on phones. They even claim that Google is blocking them from making deals with phone manufactures about bundling their games store on certain phones out of the box.

wccrawford 6y ago
Yeah, apparently "paying too much for services they don't fully use" isn't "harm" to Google. I doubt they'd see it that way if they were on the other end.
- mehrdada 6y ago
  Key word is “irreparable” not “harm”. If you pay too much you can capture that if you get a final judgement later. It’s not “irreparable” unless you go out of business, for example, in the meanwhile due that harm, so there’s no emergency requirement to compel the other party to do something right away.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  When Epic tried to make the "30% is too much" argument in court last Monday before Judge Gonzalez Rogers, it didn't go well for them, according to an FT reporter who live tweeted at the hearing. >“The 30% of what you complain seems to be the industry rate, right? Steam charges 30%. Microsoft: 30% ... If you go to consoles: PlayStation, Xbox Nintendo all charged 30%. Physical stores: game shop, Amazon, Best Buy, Walmart all charge 30%. Apple and Google charged 30%.” “it's all 30%, and you just want to gloss over it. You don’t want to address it,” judge YGR says. Oof, Epic doing poorly on Apple’s 30% fee being excessive. “There doesn't seem to be evidence to support what you're saying,” Judge YGR says. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310618271675105282.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310618271675105282.html
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    > Steam charges 30%. Microsoft: 30% ... If you go to consoles: PlayStation, Xbox Nintendo all charged 30%. > Physical stores: game shop, Amazon, Best Buy, Walmart all charge 30%. Apple and Google charged 30%. How on earth is this not price fixing and/or oligopoly behaviour?
    - vikramkr 6y ago
      because its an industry standard. Its not illegal to go "looks like everyone else is charging 30%, let's charge the same). And in general, you don't have an incentive to undercut on price in a situation like this since nobody wins a price war - you try to bring some other value to justify listing on your platform (like a captive audience). Its easiest to just go with whatever ends up being the industry standard- and these prices are all public, no secret information has to be shared to see what everyone else is doing.
    - jkachmar 6y ago
      Because that might actually represent the fair market value that these sorts of storefronts represent?
      - rbg246 6y ago
        30% in physical shops is entirely different to 30% on digital shop fronts. In physical shops you have a lot more capital invested, because that 30% feeds the retailer, the landlord, the construction company whereas the mobile marketplace has gobbled up two layers of the economy and charges the same rate with pretty insanely significant barriers of entry to compete. It comes down to a question of monopoly and how much is too far which maybe everyone here has differing opinions on when that limit is reached.
        rtx 6y ago
        Google has invested 100s of billions in Android.
brian_cloutier 6y ago
This is not entirely fair. Here is Epic's claim of harm: > In retaliation against Epic for introducing competition to Google Play Billing, and in furtherance of Google’s anti-competitive scheme, Google removed Fortnite from the GooglePlay Store. As a result, Epic suffered—and continues to suffer—irreparable harm to its reputation, goodwill, and competitive standing. Each day that Epic remains off the Google Play Store causes Epic unquantifiable harm because Google’s other restraints ensure that downloading apps outside an app store is threatening and technically challenging to most users,which prevents Epic from effectively distributing Fortnite to many Android users. Epic only calls out their absence from the play store. They don't articulate any other harms. So, it's natural that Google would only react to this one harm, Epic didn't claim any others!
- nitrogen 6y ago
  > In retaliation against Epic for introducing competition to Google Play Billing I think this supports the OP's phrasing.
viktorcode 6y ago
As a preemptive strike Google changes third party stores rules on Android 12 towards easier operations.

by phire 6y ago

wccrawford 6y ago

Yeah, apparently "paying too much for services they don't fully use" isn't "harm" to Google. I doubt they'd see it that way if they were on the other end.

mehrdada 6y ago
Key word is “irreparable” not “harm”. If you pay too much you can capture that if you get a final judgement later. It’s not “irreparable” unless you go out of business, for example, in the meanwhile due that harm, so there’s no emergency requirement to compel the other party to do something right away.
GeekyBear 6y ago
When Epic tried to make the "30% is too much" argument in court last Monday before Judge Gonzalez Rogers, it didn't go well for them, according to an FT reporter who live tweeted at the hearing. >“The 30% of what you complain seems to be the industry rate, right? Steam charges 30%. Microsoft: 30% ... If you go to consoles: PlayStation, Xbox Nintendo all charged 30%. Physical stores: game shop, Amazon, Best Buy, Walmart all charge 30%. Apple and Google charged 30%.” “it's all 30%, and you just want to gloss over it. You don’t want to address it,” judge YGR says. Oof, Epic doing poorly on Apple’s 30% fee being excessive. “There doesn't seem to be evidence to support what you're saying,” Judge YGR says. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310618271675105282.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1310618271675105282.html
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  > Steam charges 30%. Microsoft: 30% ... If you go to consoles: PlayStation, Xbox Nintendo all charged 30%. > Physical stores: game shop, Amazon, Best Buy, Walmart all charge 30%. Apple and Google charged 30%. How on earth is this not price fixing and/or oligopoly behaviour?
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    because its an industry standard. Its not illegal to go "looks like everyone else is charging 30%, let's charge the same). And in general, you don't have an incentive to undercut on price in a situation like this since nobody wins a price war - you try to bring some other value to justify listing on your platform (like a captive audience). Its easiest to just go with whatever ends up being the industry standard- and these prices are all public, no secret information has to be shared to see what everyone else is doing.
  - jkachmar 6y ago
    Because that might actually represent the fair market value that these sorts of storefronts represent?
    - rbg246 6y ago
      30% in physical shops is entirely different to 30% on digital shop fronts. In physical shops you have a lot more capital invested, because that 30% feeds the retailer, the landlord, the construction company whereas the mobile marketplace has gobbled up two layers of the economy and charges the same rate with pretty insanely significant barriers of entry to compete. It comes down to a question of monopoly and how much is too far which maybe everyone here has differing opinions on when that limit is reached.
      - rtx 6y ago
        Google has invested 100s of billions in Android.

brian_cloutier 6y ago

This is not entirely fair. Here is Epic's claim of harm: > In retaliation against Epic for introducing competition to Google Play Billing, and in furtherance of Google’s anti-competitive scheme, Google removed Fortnite from the GooglePlay Store. As a result, Epic suffered—and continues to suffer—irreparable harm to its reputation, goodwill, and competitive standing. Each day that Epic remains off the Google Play Store causes Epic unquantifiable harm because Google’s other restraints ensure that downloading apps outside an app store is threatening and technically challenging to most users,which prevents Epic from effectively distributing Fortnite to many Android users. Epic only calls out their absence from the play store. They don't articulate any other harms. So, it's natural that Google would only react to this one harm, Epic didn't claim any others!

nitrogen 6y ago
> In retaliation against Epic for introducing competition to Google Play Billing I think this supports the OP's phrasing.

viktorcode 6y ago

As a preemptive strike Google changes third party stores rules on Android 12 towards easier operations.