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How long will it be until we realize cryptocurrencies are causing problems?

arcticbull 6y ago
But how will we pay ransomware authors (while expending 620kWh and creating 107g of electronics waste per transaction [1]) if we don't have cryptocurrencies?! Oh no wait I see the problems. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
- deburo 6y ago
  Do the major crypto runners work towards being more energy efficient, or do they not care at all? Maybe they already sponsor the development of new nuclear power plants.
  - gruez 6y ago
    They work toward making it more energy efficient (by using more optimized miners), but it only results in faster miners, not less electricity consumption. Kind of like how processors of today are several times more efficient than processors a few years ago, but they still have the same TDP.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      They cannot make it more efficient because the algorithm adapts to become less efficient. Miners design new hardware and throw out their old hardware as quickly as they can to try and stay one step ahead of their peers, but their peers catch up, the algorithm de-optimizes and the game begins again. CPUs are able to do more with the same TDP each revision, Bitcoin can only perform the exact same 7 transactions per second no matter how much faster the underlying hardware gets.
- vmception 6y ago
  That site makes only a back of the hand assumption about how much energy use is a renewable or clean source. My work with large miners - who all rely on clean or reducing pollution by using unused energy - and the economics of all miners would say that 75% of all mining is renewable energy. You would therefore have to divide all their problem metrics by 50-60%. Regarding "e-waste as much as Luxembough", is that really a lot? I don't actually know what to compare that to, all I see is "gasp a country!" and no quantitive metric compared to say any other industry or even other jurisdiction's use. With that in mind, I also am not sure it is accurate. Bitcoin e-waste doesn't really result in more machines, it results in the same amount of machines being replaced and doing more. This is because the economics has already pushed people to renewable energy sources, and the people that can already have. People that are just catching on are using people's "wasted" machines and mining with those. Ah the source you ask? All the private details about my clients. Hm, yeah not going to happen, there might be a few press releases, and there might be a few court documents that have nothing to do with mining but normal business disagreements in companies that do mine. The balanced answer is that this is something to remain vigilant about. Nations mining at a loss and printing currency to do so will absolutely not care about the power cost or source, and this is where we are headed. The private sector is not capable of doing this as uneconomically as that site suggests, pay attention as that site's assumptions are intertwined with facts. Just notice where they don't have any facts and be willing to balance that with other accounts like mine.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    What is "unused" energy and why is crypto a better use for it than charging a battery or pumping some water up a hill? > You would therefore have to divide all their problem metrics by 50-60%. Do you mean the metrics would be doubled or halved? > Bitcoin e-waste doesn't really result in more machines, it results in the same amount of machines being replaced and doing more. I don't follow. If hardware is being used for crypto it isn't being used for something else. This must either push up the cost of hardware or simply add more to the total amount in the world. Hardware has a limited life so crypto must contribute to e-waste. Why is it appropriate to attribute the hardware usage to non-crypto workloads but not crypto? What's the difference?
betaby 6y ago
Not sure if sarcasm or genuine opinion.
phailhaus 6y ago
There's no way to "shut down" Bitcoin. Cryptocurrencies are a new technology that we have to learn to deal with.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  There's no way to "shut down" Bitcoin Sure there is. Just make it not possible to convert Bitcoin into real things. If it can't be turned into money or candy or online gaming tokens or electric eels and remains virtual, then what's the point?
  - ben509 6y ago
    You wind up driving it underground, but it will still have value because you'll still be able to buy things with it on the black market. Given our past experience with the war on drugs, I'd expect this to make the situation even worse, e.g. by creating a whole new class of criminals.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Hm. Isn’t a sufficiently underground crypto currency vulnerable to interference?
      - ben509 6y ago
        Yup, a black market swaps government for organized crime. Cartels would be incentivized to dominate the network.
  - 34sdfasasd 6y ago
    "Just make water not wet." Bitcoin is money, and there will always be people willing to trade it for something else, like candy, other money, gaming tokens or even non-virtual things. Several of these things are enabled by technologies like DEX's and Cross Chain Swaps. OTC trade desks are not going away either. The problem is equivalent to shutting down any and all trade/commerce between anyone at any time. Good Luck with that!
the8472 6y ago
The invisible hand perspective is that cryptocurrencies help putting a price tag on insecure systems.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Before cryptocurrencies were widespread ransomware used vouchers such as PaySafeCard to get paid. Tech support scams use gift cards to get paid. I'm not convinced that banning cryptocurrencies will 1) significantly curb ransomware activity nor 2) that it's worth banning a tool with legitimate use that's valuable in certain countries with unstable economic situations (there are valid, non-nefarious reasons for why you'd need to move money without your government's approval).
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > Before cryptocurrencies were widespread ransomware used vouchers such as PaySafeCard to get paid. Really? You're suggesting this happened on the same scale? So how many hospitals got hacked like this with PaySafeCard? How frequently did these occur? Nothing's changed since cryptocurrencies came along? > Tech support scams use gift cards to get paid. That's why nobody even mentioned tech support scams.
tromp 6y ago
Not all all of them support non-interactive transactions. Mimblewimble based coins require an interaction between payment sending wallet and payment receiving wallet, making them unsuitable for ransom payments.
Aerroon 6y ago
Here's a different suggestion: how about schools get enough civet security that her don't leak their students' information? Whether hackers can demand a ransom in crypto currency or not doesn't change that the school district made their students' personal information vulnerable. If the school feels that they cannot handle cyber security at such a level then use a typewriter for students' personal information. Once this information gets out there it can't be unreleased. Edit: I do concede that crypto currencies probably increased the amount of ransom attacks on systems. I also think that security in systems that don't contain any PII probably isn't as important and these attacks do affect them too.

But how will we pay ransomware authors (while expending 620kWh and creating 107g of electronics waste per transaction [1]) if we don't have cryptocurrencies?! Oh no wait I see the problems. [1] https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

deburo 6y ago
Do the major crypto runners work towards being more energy efficient, or do they not care at all? Maybe they already sponsor the development of new nuclear power plants.
- gruez 6y ago
  They work toward making it more energy efficient (by using more optimized miners), but it only results in faster miners, not less electricity consumption. Kind of like how processors of today are several times more efficient than processors a few years ago, but they still have the same TDP.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    They cannot make it more efficient because the algorithm adapts to become less efficient. Miners design new hardware and throw out their old hardware as quickly as they can to try and stay one step ahead of their peers, but their peers catch up, the algorithm de-optimizes and the game begins again. CPUs are able to do more with the same TDP each revision, Bitcoin can only perform the exact same 7 transactions per second no matter how much faster the underlying hardware gets.
vmception 6y ago
That site makes only a back of the hand assumption about how much energy use is a renewable or clean source. My work with large miners - who all rely on clean or reducing pollution by using unused energy - and the economics of all miners would say that 75% of all mining is renewable energy. You would therefore have to divide all their problem metrics by 50-60%. Regarding "e-waste as much as Luxembough", is that really a lot? I don't actually know what to compare that to, all I see is "gasp a country!" and no quantitive metric compared to say any other industry or even other jurisdiction's use. With that in mind, I also am not sure it is accurate. Bitcoin e-waste doesn't really result in more machines, it results in the same amount of machines being replaced and doing more. This is because the economics has already pushed people to renewable energy sources, and the people that can already have. People that are just catching on are using people's "wasted" machines and mining with those. Ah the source you ask? All the private details about my clients. Hm, yeah not going to happen, there might be a few press releases, and there might be a few court documents that have nothing to do with mining but normal business disagreements in companies that do mine. The balanced answer is that this is something to remain vigilant about. Nations mining at a loss and printing currency to do so will absolutely not care about the power cost or source, and this is where we are headed. The private sector is not capable of doing this as uneconomically as that site suggests, pay attention as that site's assumptions are intertwined with facts. Just notice where they don't have any facts and be willing to balance that with other accounts like mine.
- mulmen 6y ago
  What is "unused" energy and why is crypto a better use for it than charging a battery or pumping some water up a hill? > You would therefore have to divide all their problem metrics by 50-60%. Do you mean the metrics would be doubled or halved? > Bitcoin e-waste doesn't really result in more machines, it results in the same amount of machines being replaced and doing more. I don't follow. If hardware is being used for crypto it isn't being used for something else. This must either push up the cost of hardware or simply add more to the total amount in the world. Hardware has a limited life so crypto must contribute to e-waste. Why is it appropriate to attribute the hardware usage to non-crypto workloads but not crypto? What's the difference?

betaby 6y ago

Not sure if sarcasm or genuine opinion.

phailhaus 6y ago

There's no way to "shut down" Bitcoin. Cryptocurrencies are a new technology that we have to learn to deal with.

reaperducer 6y ago
There's no way to "shut down" Bitcoin Sure there is. Just make it not possible to convert Bitcoin into real things. If it can't be turned into money or candy or online gaming tokens or electric eels and remains virtual, then what's the point?
- ben509 6y ago
  You wind up driving it underground, but it will still have value because you'll still be able to buy things with it on the black market. Given our past experience with the war on drugs, I'd expect this to make the situation even worse, e.g. by creating a whole new class of criminals.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Hm. Isn’t a sufficiently underground crypto currency vulnerable to interference?
    - ben509 6y ago
      Yup, a black market swaps government for organized crime. Cartels would be incentivized to dominate the network.
- 34sdfasasd 6y ago
  "Just make water not wet." Bitcoin is money, and there will always be people willing to trade it for something else, like candy, other money, gaming tokens or even non-virtual things. Several of these things are enabled by technologies like DEX's and Cross Chain Swaps. OTC trade desks are not going away either. The problem is equivalent to shutting down any and all trade/commerce between anyone at any time. Good Luck with that!

the8472 6y ago

The invisible hand perspective is that cryptocurrencies help putting a price tag on insecure systems.

Nextgrid 6y ago

Before cryptocurrencies were widespread ransomware used vouchers such as PaySafeCard to get paid. Tech support scams use gift cards to get paid. I'm not convinced that banning cryptocurrencies will 1) significantly curb ransomware activity nor 2) that it's worth banning a tool with legitimate use that's valuable in certain countries with unstable economic situations (there are valid, non-nefarious reasons for why you'd need to move money without your government's approval).

mehrdadn 6y ago
> Before cryptocurrencies were widespread ransomware used vouchers such as PaySafeCard to get paid. Really? You're suggesting this happened on the same scale? So how many hospitals got hacked like this with PaySafeCard? How frequently did these occur? Nothing's changed since cryptocurrencies came along? > Tech support scams use gift cards to get paid. That's why nobody even mentioned tech support scams.

tromp 6y ago

Not all all of them support non-interactive transactions. Mimblewimble based coins require an interaction between payment sending wallet and payment receiving wallet, making them unsuitable for ransom payments.

Aerroon 6y ago

Here's a different suggestion: how about schools get enough civet security that her don't leak their students' information? Whether hackers can demand a ransom in crypto currency or not doesn't change that the school district made their students' personal information vulnerable. If the school feels that they cannot handle cyber security at such a level then use a typewriter for students' personal information. Once this information gets out there it can't be unreleased. Edit: I do concede that crypto currencies probably increased the amount of ransom attacks on systems. I also think that security in systems that don't contain any PII probably isn't as important and these attacks do affect them too.