5 ms·

The exactly same goes for Brazil. Am I seeing a pattern here, i.e. countries that are supposed to be great but really aren't?

fetbaffe 6y ago
Pattern is high trust societies vs low trust societies.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, personally I think this has a lot to do with post-colonialism. I'm Irish, and there's a lot of this in our society. It was much more accepted in my parents generation, and appears to be reducing a little bit as we become a richer society.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I heard from an Irish colleague (I'm a Brazilian expat in Dublin) that this attitude, in particular towards taxes, changed after the independence from the UK.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      So yes and no. My parents are pretty old (they had kids late) and they really don't like telling revenue (the taxman) anything, and would be inclined to overlook tax avoidance and whatnot. My wife's parents are of a similar age, and also similar on this. Now, all of them were born a generation after independence, so it's definitely not just that. However, when the government has historically not given a crap about you (as the British government did not), it leads to a disconnect from the society and institutions that increases the probability that you'll be OK with tax dodging and not have as much trust in the overall society (because historically, it didn't care about you). So, I'd say that it's slowly changing because we're not a colony anymore, but it definitely didn't just disappear in a puff of smoke in 1921.
  - handelaar 6y ago
    It has rather less to do with post-colonialism than it does with having a very unethical dominant church for hundreds of years, honestly. We're the only horrifically-bent country in northern Europe
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I'm sorry, what? Like I enjoy a bit of Irish-Catholic bashing as much as the next Irish person (probably more than most, given that I enjoy complaining about the Council of Nicea) but I don't really see how the pre-independence Catholic Church was unethical. To be fair, though I'm not a fan of the authoritarianism, without the Catholic Church neither of my grand-parents or their parents would have had an education, and indeed the church was the centre of irish social life and community for a very long time. Like, post-independence, the Church did a lot of dodgy things, but I really don't think you can blame the one organisation which actually provided some services for Irish catholics for our issues with authority. And it's worth pointing out that much of the remaining corruption in Irish life is at the political level, rather than the bureaucratic level. As an example, you might bribe politicians to get planning permission for a large shopping centre, but you don't have to bribe the passport office for a renewal. Can you give me some examples of Ireland being horrifically bent? Edit: incidentally, thank you for Kildare Street!
- cpursley 6y ago
  Yep, Why Nations Fails talks about this a lot.
Thorentis 6y ago
Which countries mentioned so far are popularly regarded as "great"?
- meshaneian 6y ago
  According to a reliable source - hat logos - there is a country that might someday rejoin that elite group. ("MAGA" political hats: "Make America Great Again". There is so much to read into that in the political climate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dmurray 6y ago
That could describe any country. Certainly Greece, India and Brazil wouldn't make it to the top of my list of countries I'd expect to see described that way.
- mmmuhd 6y ago
  Yes i think Nigeria should come first in terms of those behaviors
cainxinth 6y ago
I was backpacking Europe years ago and I met this Brazilian girl. We were discussing places that required a visa and she said she never bothered with them. I asked how that was possible. She said that if anyone ever questioned her she just acted confused and found a way to sneak off. I was flabbergasted. She simply (and proudly) explained: "It's the Brazilian way of life!"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- whatever_dude 6y ago
  She's right. It even has a name, "jeitinho": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho

fetbaffe 6y ago

Pattern is high trust societies vs low trust societies.

disgruntledphd2 6y ago
Yeah, personally I think this has a lot to do with post-colonialism. I'm Irish, and there's a lot of this in our society. It was much more accepted in my parents generation, and appears to be reducing a little bit as we become a richer society.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  I heard from an Irish colleague (I'm a Brazilian expat in Dublin) that this attitude, in particular towards taxes, changed after the independence from the UK.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    So yes and no. My parents are pretty old (they had kids late) and they really don't like telling revenue (the taxman) anything, and would be inclined to overlook tax avoidance and whatnot. My wife's parents are of a similar age, and also similar on this. Now, all of them were born a generation after independence, so it's definitely not just that. However, when the government has historically not given a crap about you (as the British government did not), it leads to a disconnect from the society and institutions that increases the probability that you'll be OK with tax dodging and not have as much trust in the overall society (because historically, it didn't care about you). So, I'd say that it's slowly changing because we're not a colony anymore, but it definitely didn't just disappear in a puff of smoke in 1921.
- handelaar 6y ago
  It has rather less to do with post-colonialism than it does with having a very unethical dominant church for hundreds of years, honestly. We're the only horrifically-bent country in northern Europe
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    I'm sorry, what? Like I enjoy a bit of Irish-Catholic bashing as much as the next Irish person (probably more than most, given that I enjoy complaining about the Council of Nicea) but I don't really see how the pre-independence Catholic Church was unethical. To be fair, though I'm not a fan of the authoritarianism, without the Catholic Church neither of my grand-parents or their parents would have had an education, and indeed the church was the centre of irish social life and community for a very long time. Like, post-independence, the Church did a lot of dodgy things, but I really don't think you can blame the one organisation which actually provided some services for Irish catholics for our issues with authority. And it's worth pointing out that much of the remaining corruption in Irish life is at the political level, rather than the bureaucratic level. As an example, you might bribe politicians to get planning permission for a large shopping centre, but you don't have to bribe the passport office for a renewal. Can you give me some examples of Ireland being horrifically bent? Edit: incidentally, thank you for Kildare Street!
cpursley 6y ago
Yep, Why Nations Fails talks about this a lot.

Thorentis 6y ago

Which countries mentioned so far are popularly regarded as "great"?

meshaneian 6y ago
According to a reliable source - hat logos - there is a country that might someday rejoin that elite group. ("MAGA" political hats: "Make America Great Again". There is so much to read into that in the political climate.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

dmurray 6y ago

That could describe any country. Certainly Greece, India and Brazil wouldn't make it to the top of my list of countries I'd expect to see described that way.

mmmuhd 6y ago
Yes i think Nigeria should come first in terms of those behaviors

cainxinth 6y ago

I was backpacking Europe years ago and I met this Brazilian girl. We were discussing places that required a visa and she said she never bothered with them. I asked how that was possible. She said that if anyone ever questioned her she just acted confused and found a way to sneak off. I was flabbergasted. She simply (and proudly) explained: "It's the Brazilian way of life!"

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
whatever_dude 6y ago
She's right. It even has a name, "jeitinho": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho