7 ms·

"Gaming the system" is also a cultural thing in Greece. In fact, it's so expected that you are perceived to be either out of the loop or a fool for not going th

by _dbdw 6y ago

"Gaming the system" is also a cultural thing in Greece. In fact, it's so expected that you are perceived to be either out of the loop or a fool for not going the extra mile. I broke friendships with people who claimed that "it's all subjective at the end of the day" whenever I was raising ethical/moral concerns. Imagine not being able to provide a reasonable argument to justify your actions, beyond of "because I'm allowed to do it".

farias0 6y ago
The exactly same goes for Brazil. Am I seeing a pattern here, i.e. countries that are supposed to be great but really aren't?
- fetbaffe 6y ago
  Pattern is high trust societies vs low trust societies.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Yeah, personally I think this has a lot to do with post-colonialism. I'm Irish, and there's a lot of this in our society. It was much more accepted in my parents generation, and appears to be reducing a little bit as we become a richer society.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      I heard from an Irish colleague (I'm a Brazilian expat in Dublin) that this attitude, in particular towards taxes, changed after the independence from the UK.
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        So yes and no. My parents are pretty old (they had kids late) and they really don't like telling revenue (the taxman) anything, and would be inclined to overlook tax avoidance and whatnot. My wife's parents are of a similar age, and also similar on this. Now, all of them were born a generation after independence, so it's definitely not just that. However, when the government has historically not given a crap about you (as the British government did not), it leads to a disconnect from the society and institutions that increases the probability that you'll be OK with tax dodging and not have as much trust in the overall society (because historically, it didn't care about you). So, I'd say that it's slowly changing because we're not a colony anymore, but it definitely didn't just disappear in a puff of smoke in 1921.
    - handelaar 6y ago
      It has rather less to do with post-colonialism than it does with having a very unethical dominant church for hundreds of years, honestly. We're the only horrifically-bent country in northern Europe
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        I'm sorry, what? Like I enjoy a bit of Irish-Catholic bashing as much as the next Irish person (probably more than most, given that I enjoy complaining about the Council of Nicea) but I don't really see how the pre-independence Catholic Church was unethical. To be fair, though I'm not a fan of the authoritarianism, without the Catholic Church neither of my grand-parents or their parents would have had an education, and indeed the church was the centre of irish social life and community for a very long time. Like, post-independence, the Church did a lot of dodgy things, but I really don't think you can blame the one organisation which actually provided some services for Irish catholics for our issues with authority. And it's worth pointing out that much of the remaining corruption in Irish life is at the political level, rather than the bureaucratic level. As an example, you might bribe politicians to get planning permission for a large shopping centre, but you don't have to bribe the passport office for a renewal. Can you give me some examples of Ireland being horrifically bent? Edit: incidentally, thank you for Kildare Street!
  - cpursley 6y ago
    Yep, Why Nations Fails talks about this a lot.
- Thorentis 6y ago
  Which countries mentioned so far are popularly regarded as "great"?
  - meshaneian 6y ago
    According to a reliable source - hat logos - there is a country that might someday rejoin that elite group. ("MAGA" political hats: "Make America Great Again". There is so much to read into that in the political climate.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dmurray 6y ago
  That could describe any country. Certainly Greece, India and Brazil wouldn't make it to the top of my list of countries I'd expect to see described that way.
  - mmmuhd 6y ago
    Yes i think Nigeria should come first in terms of those behaviors
- cainxinth 6y ago
  I was backpacking Europe years ago and I met this Brazilian girl. We were discussing places that required a visa and she said she never bothered with them. I asked how that was possible. She said that if anyone ever questioned her she just acted confused and found a way to sneak off. I was flabbergasted. She simply (and proudly) explained: "It's the Brazilian way of life!"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - whatever_dude 6y ago
    She's right. It even has a name, "jeitinho": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Post modernism embraces this though, and it is rampant in the West post Kant/Nietzsche. When you create your own truth and morals, you are going to disagree with people about stuff like this :)
- fireflash38 6y ago
  Does it really embrace it, or does it explain why it's a thing?
- logicOnly 6y ago
  I'd hardly call this embracing this thought. The hundred dollars you get is nothing when you destroy the environment.
  - tremon 6y ago
    I'll see your destruction and I'll raise you externalization. Yes, this behaviour is rampant throughout Western society, it's pretty much embraced by capitalism. It's still "who cares about $x, as long as I can get my $y". It doesn't really change the argument much if $x is open source and $y is a free t-shirt, or $x is the habitat of these creatures and $y is gallons of oil. Don't really see how postmodernism fits in with this though.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      Maybe this will be interesting: https://youtu.be/8KQcm0Mi5To https://youtu.be/8KQcm0Mi5To I found it interesting at least :)
      - keeganpoppen 6y ago
        huh well i came into that very dubious, but that was actually quite interesting and i listened to every word. i will hand it to religion that they have had a fairly consistent answer to the post-modernism / relativism / post-truth-iness and its attendant ugliness in present times-- the same answer as before any of those things even existed, in fact. xD
zorbash 6y ago
I think you are conflating systemic corruption with culture. It's unfair to blame culture as the sole instigator of said corruption. You can tell it's not cultural by the way Greeks abroad are not known for "gaming the system".
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  You mean people like Aristotelis Onassis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_Onassis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_Onassis Aye, it's common knowledge in Greece that he came across his huge fortune by being a nice guy and never stepping over any lines, of law or ethics. True fact. /s
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    The dude was a legendary briber. Generally he was thought to be trustworthy if you cut a deal -- no matter how corrupt and shady the deal was -- but absolutely willing to bribe, coerce, threaten, and completely willing ignore regulations and rules.
twox2 6y ago
It's that argument of you let yourself get conned so it's your fault. Therefore it's ok to con people. Nigerian scammers also are in this camp.
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
I'm Greek too (γειάα) but live in the UK. It's a cultural thing here, too. Just imagine everyone around you constantly trying to pinch every last penny off your purse, in any way they can think of. Or, look at the way the Brexit campaign convinced half of the UK citizens to vote for Brexit with unsubstantiated claims like "350 million to the NHS" or "Millions of migrants from Turkey coming over" etc. In general, I think both OP and you are making the same mistake: assuming that because we're citizens of once or currently very poor countries, we're doing something different than the more affluent countries, or are somehow backwards, more corrupt, etc. Far as I can tell, rich countries are rich because they're better at this game of taking as much as they can from everyone they can anyway they can, than we are. Just think of who is associated with "move fast and break stuff". Is it an Indian startup? A Greek startup?
- jpxw 6y ago
  Which part of the UK do you live in, I wonder. It it’s London (as I’d be willing to bet it is), I’m not sure you can generalise to the whole of the UK from that.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
    How much are you willing to bet? :|
- Uhhrrr 6y ago
  Facebook is actually a good example of the opposite tactic. They leave a lot of money on the table because they don't need it and it could hurt their platform dominance.
- lozenge 6y ago
  I don't see it in the UK actually, and those are not good examples at all. When I go to visit the US, I get nickel-and-dimed a lot more. Compared to the US, there isn't much MLM or get-rich-quick here for example.
  - fsckboy 6y ago

by _dbdw 6y ago

farias0 6y ago

The exactly same goes for Brazil. Am I seeing a pattern here, i.e. countries that are supposed to be great but really aren't?

fetbaffe 6y ago
Pattern is high trust societies vs low trust societies.
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  Yeah, personally I think this has a lot to do with post-colonialism. I'm Irish, and there's a lot of this in our society. It was much more accepted in my parents generation, and appears to be reducing a little bit as we become a richer society.
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I heard from an Irish colleague (I'm a Brazilian expat in Dublin) that this attitude, in particular towards taxes, changed after the independence from the UK.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      So yes and no. My parents are pretty old (they had kids late) and they really don't like telling revenue (the taxman) anything, and would be inclined to overlook tax avoidance and whatnot. My wife's parents are of a similar age, and also similar on this. Now, all of them were born a generation after independence, so it's definitely not just that. However, when the government has historically not given a crap about you (as the British government did not), it leads to a disconnect from the society and institutions that increases the probability that you'll be OK with tax dodging and not have as much trust in the overall society (because historically, it didn't care about you). So, I'd say that it's slowly changing because we're not a colony anymore, but it definitely didn't just disappear in a puff of smoke in 1921.
  - handelaar 6y ago
    It has rather less to do with post-colonialism than it does with having a very unethical dominant church for hundreds of years, honestly. We're the only horrifically-bent country in northern Europe
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      I'm sorry, what? Like I enjoy a bit of Irish-Catholic bashing as much as the next Irish person (probably more than most, given that I enjoy complaining about the Council of Nicea) but I don't really see how the pre-independence Catholic Church was unethical. To be fair, though I'm not a fan of the authoritarianism, without the Catholic Church neither of my grand-parents or their parents would have had an education, and indeed the church was the centre of irish social life and community for a very long time. Like, post-independence, the Church did a lot of dodgy things, but I really don't think you can blame the one organisation which actually provided some services for Irish catholics for our issues with authority. And it's worth pointing out that much of the remaining corruption in Irish life is at the political level, rather than the bureaucratic level. As an example, you might bribe politicians to get planning permission for a large shopping centre, but you don't have to bribe the passport office for a renewal. Can you give me some examples of Ireland being horrifically bent? Edit: incidentally, thank you for Kildare Street!
- cpursley 6y ago
  Yep, Why Nations Fails talks about this a lot.
Thorentis 6y ago
Which countries mentioned so far are popularly regarded as "great"?
- meshaneian 6y ago
  According to a reliable source - hat logos - there is a country that might someday rejoin that elite group. ("MAGA" political hats: "Make America Great Again". There is so much to read into that in the political climate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dmurray 6y ago
That could describe any country. Certainly Greece, India and Brazil wouldn't make it to the top of my list of countries I'd expect to see described that way.
- mmmuhd 6y ago
  Yes i think Nigeria should come first in terms of those behaviors
cainxinth 6y ago
I was backpacking Europe years ago and I met this Brazilian girl. We were discussing places that required a visa and she said she never bothered with them. I asked how that was possible. She said that if anyone ever questioned her she just acted confused and found a way to sneak off. I was flabbergasted. She simply (and proudly) explained: "It's the Brazilian way of life!"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- whatever_dude 6y ago
  She's right. It even has a name, "jeitinho": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Post modernism embraces this though, and it is rampant in the West post Kant/Nietzsche. When you create your own truth and morals, you are going to disagree with people about stuff like this :)

fireflash38 6y ago
Does it really embrace it, or does it explain why it's a thing?
logicOnly 6y ago
I'd hardly call this embracing this thought. The hundred dollars you get is nothing when you destroy the environment.
- tremon 6y ago
  I'll see your destruction and I'll raise you externalization. Yes, this behaviour is rampant throughout Western society, it's pretty much embraced by capitalism. It's still "who cares about $x, as long as I can get my $y". It doesn't really change the argument much if $x is open source and $y is a free t-shirt, or $x is the habitat of these creatures and $y is gallons of oil. Don't really see how postmodernism fits in with this though.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Maybe this will be interesting: https://youtu.be/8KQcm0Mi5To https://youtu.be/8KQcm0Mi5To I found it interesting at least :)
    - keeganpoppen 6y ago
      huh well i came into that very dubious, but that was actually quite interesting and i listened to every word. i will hand it to religion that they have had a fairly consistent answer to the post-modernism / relativism / post-truth-iness and its attendant ugliness in present times-- the same answer as before any of those things even existed, in fact. xD

zorbash 6y ago

I think you are conflating systemic corruption with culture. It's unfair to blame culture as the sole instigator of said corruption. You can tell it's not cultural by the way Greeks abroad are not known for "gaming the system".

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
You mean people like Aristotelis Onassis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_Onassis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle_Onassis Aye, it's common knowledge in Greece that he came across his huge fortune by being a nice guy and never stepping over any lines, of law or ethics. True fact. /s
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  The dude was a legendary briber. Generally he was thought to be trustworthy if you cut a deal -- no matter how corrupt and shady the deal was -- but absolutely willing to bribe, coerce, threaten, and completely willing ignore regulations and rules.

twox2 6y ago

It's that argument of you let yourself get conned so it's your fault. Therefore it's ok to con people. Nigerian scammers also are in this camp.

YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago

I'm Greek too (γειάα) but live in the UK. It's a cultural thing here, too. Just imagine everyone around you constantly trying to pinch every last penny off your purse, in any way they can think of. Or, look at the way the Brexit campaign convinced half of the UK citizens to vote for Brexit with unsubstantiated claims like "350 million to the NHS" or "Millions of migrants from Turkey coming over" etc. In general, I think both OP and you are making the same mistake: assuming that because we're citizens of once or currently very poor countries, we're doing something different than the more affluent countries, or are somehow backwards, more corrupt, etc. Far as I can tell, rich countries are rich because they're better at this game of taking as much as they can from everyone they can anyway they can, than we are. Just think of who is associated with "move fast and break stuff". Is it an Indian startup? A Greek startup?

jpxw 6y ago
Which part of the UK do you live in, I wonder. It it’s London (as I’d be willing to bet it is), I’m not sure you can generalise to the whole of the UK from that.
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  How much are you willing to bet? :|
Uhhrrr 6y ago
Facebook is actually a good example of the opposite tactic. They leave a lot of money on the table because they don't need it and it could hurt their platform dominance.
lozenge 6y ago
I don't see it in the UK actually, and those are not good examples at all. When I go to visit the US, I get nickel-and-dimed a lot more. Compared to the US, there isn't much MLM or get-rich-quick here for example.
- fsckboy 6y ago