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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

• thewarrior 6y ago
  There has been a lot of outrage over the past week in India over the rape of a lower caste woman by upper castes. The police sided with the culprits and forced the family to cremate the victim to destroy evidence. This is a common tactic by upper castes to spread terror and keep the lower castes in line. Goes to show how entrenched the system is especially outside the big cities.
  • justicezyx 6y ago
    Do you have an English source on this reported incident? It sounds beyond modern day concept of cruelty.
    • satya71 6y ago
      https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2020/oct/02/hathras-gang-rape-police-peddle-no-rape-theory-cite-lab-report-on-samples-lifted-over-a-week-after-assault-2204640.html https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2020/oct/02/hathras-...
    • baali 6y ago
      https://indianexpress.com/article/india/hathras-rape-victim-cremation-up-police-6638470/ https://indianexpress.com/article/india/hathras-rape-victim-...
  • john_max_1 6y ago
    FWIW, There were thee more incidents and in all the cases lower caste girl was raped by Muslim guys. So, much for unnecessary giving caste/communal angle to a case of corruption and power.
    • thewarrior 6y ago
      Caste exists among some Muslims too. Lower caste women bear the brunt of it because of their low social status. So no its not irrelevant. They suffer so much precisely because they are lower caste even in your examples.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • mav3rick 6y ago
      Why can't you condemn all such cases. Why do you try to bring down one by citing the other.
  • renewiltord 6y ago
    This could be any week in the last ten years at least. There's always outrage, there's always protests, and nothing changes.
    • puranjay 6y ago
      I've lived long enough in North India to know that outside a couple of cities, being out after dark is a big no-no if you're a single woman.
• clumsysmurf 6y ago
  After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If you ever overhear something like this, what would you do?
  • erklik 6y ago
    In an interview, it seems to me as highly unethical and likely discrimination. Although, not sure if there are legal ramifications to this sort of thing though.
    • gruez 6y ago
      caste isn't a protected class so they might be fine legally.
      • erklik 6y ago
        Yeah. I wasn't sure there was any legal recourse. Nonetheless, it does seem highly unethical to make a decision in an interview based on caste. Although, the OP's case, the person did quickly realize her mistake, but bias might still be present.
        • andi999 6y ago
          In then OP's case most likely the person realized that she shouldnt have said it directly/to him as her mistake and needs to hide her discrimination better.
      • CydeWeys 6y ago
        If you listen to the linked podcast you'll learn that it in fact may qualify as a protected class, and that there is currently a pending lawsuit that may rule on this.
      • 6y ago
• mynameishere 6y ago
  Guess which "caste" is on the bottom. You've all seen it.
• paloaltokid 6y ago
  There were a lot of insightful comments when the lawsuit mentioned in the article was first announced. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697827
• Spooky23 6y ago
  People are people and always have ways to flag people outside the tribe.
  • kingkawn 6y ago
    So we should accept this because of a blanket truism?
    • edoceo 6y ago
      Never! Be the change!
    • AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      That seems to be an uncharitable interpretation of Spooky23's comment.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• throwawayuuid 6y ago
  I am just a regular unhyphenated American at a FANG, and I've never gotten a job offer when any of my interviewers were Hindustani. Coincidence, maybe? I think this particular nepotism is not exclusively internecine.
  • astrea 6y ago
    Based on the language in this comment, I can't help but imagine you somehow let your internal biases affect your behavior and language during these interviews.
    • throwawayuuid 6y ago
      You'd be surprised I guess.
    • kyuudou 6y ago
      No, I've had similar experiences. I check the "two or more races" category where applicable.
    • core-questions 6y ago
      Based on the language in this comment, I can't help but imagine you judge everyone using similarly low amounts of information about their conduct and actions.
    • baggy_trough 6y ago
      What would be a property of the language in the comment that would lead you to this conclusion?
      • tt433 6y ago
        Guessing the phrase "regular... American" implying that other not hyphenated Americans are not "regular"
      • klmadfejno 6y ago
        If someone told me they failed 10 interviews, and suspected that the race of the interviewers was a driver of that, and then extrapolated that to others of that race, I would guess that correlates to a number of other beliefs that I would care to avoid hiring for.
• nosefrog 6y ago
  What does "(ph)" mean in this context? > When Sam Cornelius (ph) first arrived...
  • talmr 6y ago
    I was also curious. Found it on wiki: (ph), a notation used in transcripts to indicate that the transcriber does not know the spelling, usually of a name, and has spelled it as it was pronounced (phonetically)
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• kwistzhaderach 6y ago
  It so interesting, as a 3rd gen Singaporean Indian, no one mentions caste here. In fact most of my Indian friends and I don't even know our caste at all (Even those who are religious enough not to eat beef)
• tharne 6y ago
  I have to admit it's somewhat amusing to see how surprised some people are to realize that people who aren't white can be racist too. Humans don't change much culture to culture once you get past a lot of the more superficial stuff.
  • tclancy 6y ago
    Amusing how?
    • rv-de 6y ago
      B/c it is being ignored while in plain sight.
      • henru 6y ago
        Discrimination based on caste is different than discrimination based on race, though. There is probably race based discrimination in India too, and it might intersect with caste, but conflating both probably doesnt really make sense. Also, I dont think people really ignore people of color being racist within their countries. Most of the time when people bring up arguments stating that the people being racist are white people, its in the context of western countries with a colonial/slave trade past where systematic racism doesnt target white people.
        • rv-de 6y ago
          race based and caste based discrimination are both technically the same and fall into the "racism" category.
          • henru 6y ago
            Im curious about it, how is it the same? Is there a racial basis to caste? My (superficial) undrerstandimg of it is that it's more of a discrimination based on social class (classism) rather than a discrimination based on race (racism). Were dalits, for example, part of a racial minority when this all started?
• carabiner 6y ago
  I love the dalits.
• la6471 6y ago
  This interview seems one sided though. I know that for last two decades Brahmins and other so called upper caste Indians have been protesting India’s quota system which is basically affirmative action whereby certain percentages of college seats and job vacancies are reserved only for people who do not belong to the upper castes. So there have been numerous occasions where meritorious but poor upper caste youths did not get seats in colleges or were not selected in government or non government jobs and they went to the people from non Brahmin castes who were financially better off. Not trying to make a judgement here but just want to expose both sides of the argument. And even in California we are planning to do the same where a certain percentage of college seats will be reserved for people from only certain ethnicity or background.
  • blinkingled 6y ago
    Yeah. I can't say that I have experienced caste in same light as the article - in many jobs and across many hiring decisions it was never about caste but rather sometimes about language, geography and compatibility. It's also a matter of preferences as far as marriage goes - Brahmins for e.g. marrying within is not so much of a given today and whatever percentage of it is still happening is more about familiarity and preferences for culture and language than it is because of the belief that Brahmins are superior caste. They no longer are advantaged either. Brahmins really are the new Dalits in India - nowhere to be seen in any power positions, have no affirmative action/reservations for college education or jobs, hold no lucrative jobs and thus if not already disadvantaged then certainly on the way to be so. I say that as someone who grew up in a Brahmin family - my dad was discriminated against in his business ample times to cause him to give up early. Both me and my brother had to be academically score perfect grades without fail in order to get into an Engineering college when most disadvantaged cast folks got in for a lot less. The rob Peter to pay Paul thing hasn't quite done any net good for society except maybe in times of explosive growth/expansion which is to say not too often.
    • mavelikara 6y ago
      > Brahmins really are the new Dalits in India The fraction of wealth and power Brahmins hold is still disproportionately high when compared to population.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• canistel 6y ago
  See, you can have discourses on caste, you can deliberate as you will, but endogamy - marrying within your caste - is still the norm across India, even in the states where people are not that finicky about caste. Until this chain is broken, the shadow boxing on the sidelines will continue. Interestingly the Caribbean communities have somehow managed to shed caste, while retaining the Hindu identity.
  • tt433 6y ago
    And the stateside anglo version of this: how many white college grads marry other white college grads? Worth reflection
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • 082349872349872 6y ago
      After one of my school friends remarked that his mother only watched movies with two people who love each other but can't marry because they have the wrong colour dots, I began to notice all the Hollywood wrong-colour-dot storylines. Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF6W1XD25Dc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF6W1XD25Dc
  • kingkawn 6y ago
    The Caribbean communities have done this because most of the Indian-descended people there come from lower caste historical backgrounds.
  • blinkingled 6y ago
    I fail to understand how marriage is anything but a justifiably personal preference. Jobs are a different story - you can't prefer one race/ethnicity/caste over the other for obvious reasons. Marriage on the other hand is very personal - it would be ridiculous to expect people to marry into other races/castes/ethnicities as the norm - it never happens that way in any part of the world no matter how advanced - people generally prefer the partnership of people that they share most in common with.
• pavanky 6y ago
  One anecdote that struck me was that a cousin, someone a couple of decades older than I am and spent time in US since 1990s, openly admit to me that he was more open minded in India and became more caste conscious once he moved to the US. I am not sure if he sounded regretful or just was sharing a fact of his life, but that really was weird.
  • newacct583 6y ago
    What caste is your cousin? One possibility is that in India his status was more secure, while in the US as an immigrant it was not and he found he needed to exploit leverage like this over other people that was implicit back home.
    • pavanky 6y ago
      He is not from a disadvantaged caste.
• astan 6y ago
  Why is this on HN? This is clearly political.
  • Uhhrrr 6y ago
    It is an illuminating view of a system which is present in many tech workforces but rarely spoken of.
  • joe33433 6y ago
    Since most of us here are developers working across international teams, this provides helpful information to the non Indian managers to notice and stop discrimination of Brahaminical Patriarchy.
• dilippkumar 6y ago
  From Cynthia Tablot’s Precolonial India in Practice[0] > One peculiarity of Andhra society is that many of the leading warrior families made no pretensions to ksatriya status but instead proudly proclaimed their descent from the creator Bramha’s feet. This is an allusion to the famous origin myth first found in the Rig Veda wherein the four varnas are said to have originated from different portions of the body of Purusha, the primordial man. It was from the creator’s feet that the fourth, or sudra, class sprang, and another way of expressing sudra status was to say that one belonged to the fourth order of society. The pride in sudra origin is especially prominent in two records from the fourteenth century, in which sudras are said to be the best of the four varnas because they are the bravest or the purest. Families in what was theoretically the lowest social category, and not the ksatriya lineages of the costal subregion, possessed the greatest degree of actual political power in medieval Andhra, despite their relatively humble ancestry. India’s history of caste in society is far more complicated than what’s portrayed in popular depictions of India. Add to this, India’s insane cultural diversity. When Ibn Batuta was traveling through (presumably north) India recording how women were uneducated, forced into marriage and how Brahmins held the highest social status, the Bhakti movement (sort of similar to Europe’s protestant movement) was brewing in the south[1], the Virasaivas were trying to form a caste free society in what is now Karnataka[2] and you have sudra rulers over modern day Andhra Pradesh. This complicated history has largely been forgotten, Indian textbooks do not come anywhere close to exploring the complexity of the origins of Caste. I appreciate NPR taking an interest in talking about Caste in India, but this treatment is extremely disappointing. Indian society can not discuss caste freely - there is too much political baggage that gets in the way (notice how all the references below aren’t from Indian scholars). NPR has an incredible opportunity to be the swiss neutral ground when talking about caste and how it impacts every day life in India. I really hope they don’t bring that baggage over to America and end all possibility for level headed discourse. [0] Cynthia Talbot, “Precolonial India in Practice - Society, Region and Identity in Medieval Andhra”. Chapter 2, page 51. [1] John Stratton Hawley, “A storm of songs” [2] Gil Ben-Herut, “Silva’s saints - the origins of devotion in Kannada according to Harihara’s Ragalegalu”
  • drieddust 6y ago
    Edit: I would truly appreciate a discourse. Simple downvoting provides no feedback. India suffers from this colonial system and unfortunately media takes every single opportunity. Like recent rape cases. Only case with victim from lower class and culprits from higher class is getting all the media attention. I am not saying it's unnecessary but having a dialog requires honest intentions. Just like BLM these media hype cases don't help. In my 20 years of experience I have seen caste discrimination in villages but not in modern offices. People from all creed and caste work together and progress together. As far as marriages are concerned , how many Europeans marry outside their social class? I would guess not many.
• klmadfejno 6y ago
  The dialogue here seems foreign to me. Playing a coy game where you realize someone is trying to infer something about you so you dodge the question. It's weird to imagine that people engage in a cultural dance where you need certainty of arbitrary facts before you decide to act like a dick (oversimplified). But it's really weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff. Trying to hide the fact that you're a lower caste, in a way, seems to embody the fact that you're a lower caste, shifting it from an outward identity to a hidden identity. Seems like the obvious thing to do is to get ahead of the issue and state that you don't have a caste. Or make up a post modern American one. I get this is hard to do when you're in a position of weakness relative to the other party (like manager's as described). But like, this is clearly a social movement waiting to happen. If someone of equal social standing starts probing you for your caste, you should confront them on it and say you don't subscribe to it, because otherwise you do, on some level, subscribe to it. I won't pretend it's not much, much easier said than done, but geez. Is there really such a collective power by upper indian castes that you can't bring the issue to the table if you're reasonably well established? Say, a second generation citizen, with a multi racial network? Racial discrimination between people of color and whites is a frustratingly stupid problem to deal with. Caste discrimination seems, somehow, even dumber, because based on non-obvious, made up facts. What am I missing?
  • viraptor 6y ago
    > weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff It takes energy. It brings out aggressive opposition. It may impact people's lives. There needs to be a bigger shift and it can get messy. You can declare yourself free of the stupid discrimination, but then you have to be prepared to be even more publicly discussed and face backlash in private. Most people want to live their lives, not become martyrs. Also if you say "system X is bad" it's close to certain you're not the person who is at the top of system X. By not identifying yourself, you identify yourself as close to the bottom.
    • klmadfejno 6y ago
      > Also if you say "system X is bad" it's close to certain you're not the person who is at the top of system X. By not identifying yourself, you identify yourself as close to the bottom. I don't disagree, but it seems like that would happen if you just dodged the questions like the interviewee too. I guess it just sounds to me like getting in the front of the issue would be an effective strategy because a lot of the social stigma around it means the discrimination is supposed to be subtle and unacknowledged.
• throwawaywg 6y ago
  The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting chain, I run. If you have an Indian above and below, you will be bypassed on work, undermined, and given absurd directions, almost designed to drive you out. Then there is the case where if an Indian gets into management, they will start filling everything with their friends. Other management positions, they will start fighting to bring in some contractors from some place like Infosys. Its the death knell of the IT division at the company. Being on a team where you are the only non-Indian means you will be an outcast. You'll not be invited to meetings, they'll talk in their native tongue to exclude you. I've been the only white guy working with Chinese, and they don't do that. I've been in similar situations with Africans / and African Americans and they will welcome you right along. This is the truth, no matter how politically incorrect it is, and every time you walk into an IT office and there are 80% Indians, that's the reason.
  • flattone 6y ago
    I ‘worked’ through the worst job of my life at msft exactly what you described. Literal hell. Ptsd
    • bosswipe 6y ago
      Same, I just quit a job because of it.
  • logicslave12 6y ago
    Yup basically, I’ll never work for an Indian boss. Chinese, Hispanic, white, etc all fine for me.
    • Guereric 6y ago
      Uh, this belief sounds extremely prejudiced.
• john_max_1 6y ago
  I saw this on quite a few anti-India pro-pakistani sub-reddits where they are brigading this to top of hacker news.
  • throwawaysea 6y ago
    I’m not surprised. There’s been an unusual spike in very similar stories being pumped to the front page of HN by low karma accounts.
    • dang 6y ago
      Please don't break the site guidelines like this. If you think you're seeing evidence of abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com so we can investigate. Posting evidenceless insinuations of astroturfing, shilling, etc., is not allowed. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • dang 6y ago
    This submission was upvoted by long-established users. I see no evidence of brigading. Please review the site guidelines, because you broke them with your comment. "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
• mandliya 6y ago
  I am quite surprised! I am not saying it doesn’t happen, but I am plain surprised. I have been in US for 8 years and reported to Indians most of the time (I am Indian too), and thought of happening something like this here never occurred to me. I believed like minded, educated Indians who mostly comes from Middle class would never do this.
  • peanutz454 6y ago
    You cannot cure sick people. Caste is just an excuse they would use, if it were not caste they would use some other means to be an ass. In 10 years of office environment, I never faced any caste based issues in India. Outside of office is a slightly different story, but even then as a north Indian I only faced issues from north Indians and mostly ignorable.
  • john4532452 6y ago
    Because this is done very subtly, you would not even realize. It took me a very long time to find about this. Once my manager asked me if i was a vegetarian. My brahmin friend educated on this. The test is to ask if a person is a vegetarian. If no then ask if their family were a vegetarian. If no then don't proceed further. You now know he is a non-brahmin, else you now know he is a brahmin and you freely discuss about caste. Whenever you are very surprised during promotions the reason is always the manager is a brahmin. No matter how friendly, i never want my manager to be brahmin, but it not possible always.
• drieddust 6y ago
  <Edit> I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment. </Edit> India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics. But the the irony of India is that caste as a system was introduced by European. Word caste itself is of Portuguese origin. Here is a quick read.[1] All mature societies need skill based division of labour. India had Varna based system which meant society needs four classes of people to run smoothly. These weren't hard classes you were enforced in. People changes their classes as they changes profession. For example Rishi Vishmamitra was a born warrior but later on he turned into a academic. Here is a famous shloka from [2] <quote> जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्कारात् द्विज उच्यते | वेद–पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाती ब्राह्मणः | Janmana jayate sudrah, samskarat dwij uchchte, Veda pathnat bhavet viprah, brahma janati brahmanah Meaning: In Vedic culture by birth everyone is Sudra(lower caste), by accepting Samskara (Purificatory process) one becomes a Dvija(Twice Born), By study of Veda one becomes Vipra, Knower of Brahman is Brahmana. It means a true brahmin has the divine vision, knowledge and powers. Sloka means everybody is born a Sudrah. One who follows the right samskaras has a second birth, one who reads the vedas and understands them becomes a wise man and one who realises the brahma or the source of creation becomes a Brahman. Those seven mind born Rishis of Brahma are real Brahmins ancestors- parents of humen. </quote> In brief, all knowledge work was supposed to be handled by academic class Brahmins. Being born in a Brahmins family wasn't enough to get you into academics though. If you became a warrior you will be called kshatriya. Similary business class vaishya, and Shudras class existed to take care of rest of the social functions and creative endeavours. Profession like engineering, arts, temple building, city planning were all done by the 4th class. I would argue this isn't any different from today. In order to become professor or researcher(Brahmin) you need a qualification. In order to become a soldier you need to join army. Entrepreneurs and business people drive the world of commerce. Similarly rest of the professions exist too. Colonial Europeans turned this system into rigid caste based system. which slowly changed over to rigid system as society went into preservation mode as noted by dilippkumar in a comment. India was the only society without slavery as noted by various travellers. Until English colonial forces destroyed it systematically, India had an education system in which major beneficiary were the so called lower caste of today. Here is another short summary with further references.[3] [1] https://scroll.in/article/882736/caste-system-in-india-has-its-roots-in-europe-and-the-link-goes-beyond-than-just-the-word https://scroll.in/article/882736/caste-system-in-india-has-i... [2] https://qr.ae/pN4tBC https://qr.ae/pN4tBC (Skanda Purana Vol.18 Book VI , Nagar Kanda , Chapter 239 , Verse 31-34) [3] http://www.indianscience.org/essays/DHARAMPALINTRODUCTION(Pankaj).shtml http://www.indianscience.org/essays/DHARAMPALINTRODUCTION(Pa...
• dang 6y ago
  The recent major threads on this topic appear to be: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 Also these, which have dozens of comments but not hundreds: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132
• skissane 6y ago
  > They patted his shoulders to see if he was wearing a white thread that only Brahmins wear. If Brahmins can be identified by wearing a white-thread – do any non-Brahmins ever try to pass as Brahmin by donning a white thread for themselves?
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Note: not all Brahmins choose to wear the thread.
    • Bang2Bay 6y ago
      and others wear thread as well.
• lowercasteguy 6y ago
  The solution to the caste system in India is actually very simple. Religious conversion. Ambedkar was a visionary who himself converted out of Hindu religion and gave up his 'caste'. Caste is essentially the same as feudalism, but unlike other regions of the world where feudalism was a societal concept, it became a religious one in India. Buddhism for example is an Indian religion but Buddha was explicitly against the concept of caste-by-birth. Abrahamic religions are also devoid of the concept of caste. So whenever there are any caste issues, it's always two Hindus involved. Upper caste hindus don't probe the caste of a person if they hear a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist name because they know that it won't exist. Because of how easy it is to give up caste, lower castes have been doing religious conversions in India in large numbers. The so called upper caste , only make up 30% of Hindu population and if all lower castes were to convert then Hinduism would become a minority in India. To prevent this mass exodus, various states of India have been coming up with anti-conversion laws which make it really hard for people to convert. Though I really don't understand why lower caste dalits in the US continue to stay Hindu, when they could just change their religion and avoid the whole caste discussion altogether.
  • canistel 6y ago
    I beg to differ on one point. I am a Christian from Kerala ( a Southern state). On most North Indian encounters, after a while, I start getting quizzed on what my ancestor's caste was. I eventually have to reveal that I have no clue, but we are General Category (not eligible for affirmative action - or reservation) and that sort of ends it usually. If they do not probe, may be they have already made up their mind, and have imagined the worst. (I am not calling out North Indians. Keralites can make out my caste/denomination from my name)
    • lowercasteguy 6y ago
      Or you could just say that you have no caste and don't believe in it. Upper caste Hindus would like you to believe that you HAVE to disclose caste. I am also a convert and straight up tell them that my religion doesn't have the concept of a caste and end the matter there. It also helps that I changed my last name.
• ScottBurson 6y ago
  Here's a great piece on caste in America: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/magazine/isabel-wilkerson-caste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/magazine/isabel-wilkerson...
• haltingproblem 6y ago
  The most bizarre aspect is that the word caste is of Portugese origin (casta - lineage, race, ethnicity) and there is no comparable word in Hinduism. Caste is a conflation of Jati (Birth) and Varna (qualities and karma) which are two very disparate concept. The former, Jati, is a living breathing practiced thing and the latter a conceptual framework that exists in texts which most Hindus never read or even hear of. See [1]. In India, Christians, Muslims and others like Jains practice Jati but it is often mistakenly conflated to them practicing Caste. This quote from the 1921 census of India by the British well summarizes it [2][3]: "Middleton, one of the two Superintendents of Census operations of 1921, made eloquent remarks about the effect of the British Administration on caste in the Punjab. He observed, I had intended pointing out that there is a very wide revolt against the classification of occupational castes, that these castes have been largely manufactured and almost entirely preserved as separate castes by the British Government, our land records and official documents have added iron bonds to the old rigidity of caste. Caste in itself was rigid among the higher castes, but malleable amongst the lower. We pigeon-holed every one by caste, and if could not find a true caste for them, labelled them with the name of an hereditary occupation. We deplore the caste system and its effect on social and economic problems, but we are largely responsible for the system we deplore. Left to themselves such castes as Sonar (goldsmith) and Lohar (blacksmith) would rapidly disappear and no one would suffer . .. Government's passion for castes and pigeon-holes has led to crystallization of the caste system, which except amongst the aristocratic castes, was really very fluid under indigenous rule ... If the government would ignore caste it would gradually be replaced by something very different amongst the lower castes." The key point to take away is "caste" was mobile at the lower strata but locked in at the top. I remember reading the Census of India in the 1990s and it had the same conclusion - as one ascended the economic ladder, the caste evolved too, which makes sense. The British were the first one to categorize everyone into 4 castes which is map every Jati (Birth) into the 4 castes in some Hindu texts. The hierarchical & rigid classification of the 4 castes in India is a figment of the Western Mind. The 4 varnas exist in some Hindu texts as a conceptual formulation but Hinduism has hundreds of texts none of which is central unlike Judaism/Christianity or Islam who each have one central book. A practicing Hindu can choose to believe in any, some or no text sometimes within the same family. There are Hindus who eat meat and ones who foreswear it, Hindus who worship murtis (idols) and ones who are against it, Hindus who believe in a creator god (astika) and Hindus who don't (Nasktika) and so on and so forth. I know practicing Brahmins who will eat meat (and beef!) and non-practicing Hindus who are vegetarian. The variety is bewildering until you realize Hinduism is about seeking your own path. Most Hindu texts are ignored by the vast majority of Hindus and they are unaware of their existence let alone their contents. There are temples today where priests are only drawn from Dalit "castes", which are the lowest castes. Even a few decades ago there were villages, especially in South India, where Brahmins could not go to Dalit neighborhood on fear of death and vice-versa. Jati is a complex practice that defies simplistic categorization and understanding. You can infer the Jati of some one from their last name, the closest translation of Jati is Clan. Discrimination based on that is similar to discrimination based on Nationality, Ethnicity, Religion, Alma Mater or Fraternity. Idiotic and parochial. Should be condemned unequivocally. South Indian Reddy(s) who are often found in IT professions will as much discriminate against a Dalit "caste"" from Western India as they will against a farmer caste from Bihar in favor of their kind of castes. Again, stupid and parochial but similar to Japanese discriminating against Korean-Japanese or Han Chinese discriminating against Mongolians and Tibetans or Ivy Leaguers preferring other ivy leaguers, etc. Conflating all the problems of discrimination in India to a 4-level hierarchy is just a imaginary and lurid construct of the Western mind. [1] https://www.hinduamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Caste-3.0-Caste-Conflating-Varna-and-Jati.pdf https://www.hinduamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Cas... [2] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Welfare_of_Scheduled_Castes_in_India/ https://www.google.com/books/edition/Welfare_of_Scheduled_Ca... [3] https://twitter.com/BharatDharma/status/1162977793224802304/photo/1 https://twitter.com/BharatDharma/status/1162977793224802304/...
• hairband 6y ago
  Quoting from the article: > Years ago, these invitations to go swimming with American friends and neighbors were a sign of acceptance. But now the same invitations for his fellow Indians felt like a trap to out him as a Dalit. Not trying to defend casteism or anything, and Maybe I understood it wrong, but this makes it seem like if Indian guys are inviting him for swim then it must be ascertain his caste, but if Americans do it then its a sign of friendship. This makes it seem like its more in his head.
  • paloaltokid 6y ago
    I think you misunderstood. The point is that it's not in his head - he knows his Indian colleagues are trying to figure out his caste. Non-Indians don't have a caste so he knows it's safe in that situation.
    • hairband 6y ago
      Thats what I am having trouble understanding. how does he know? Unless you take into account the context of them being Indian and his experience in India, they won't be able to tell whether its to figure out his caste, or just to have fun.
      • paloaltokid 6y ago
        Have you ever been discriminated against? And on a consistent and ongoing basis? When people are after you all the time, you start to learn the warning signals.
        • hairband 6y ago
          I understand the mental stress of having people after you all the time, but that doesn't mean that all the people are after you all the time. In this case they may have extended a genuine invitation. And given the historic context, it may have led to him feel like it was a casteist action, that doesn't make his colleagues casteist.
• imheretolearn 6y ago
  I am an Indian and I genuinely don't know exactly where I stand in the cast hierarchy. In India it was pretty common for people to ask me my caste. However, what struck me the most was, that during my Master's in the US, other Indians who I was attending university with, would ask me the same question. When I would tell them that I genuinely don't know the answer, they would mock and imperceptibly laugh at me. I felt like an outcast because this seemed to be a common question shared by all the regional Indian groups(yes, mostly people from the same region will hang out with each other and refrain from hanging out with people from other regions). I was raised in a metropolitan Indian city where this isn't an issue and I had not met many Indians from other parts of India. So this was a shocker to me. Having not faced discrimination in India, I faced discrimination in an entirely different country, just because I was unaware of my "social status". Wow!
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Perhaps you should mock them for asking about such a thing.
    • 082349872349872 6y ago
      When filling out forms in the US that asked for race, I entered "mutt" but admittedly I could afford to mock.
      • Gibbon1 6y ago
        My dad always jokes about being... Irish and possibly Catholic.
        • 082349872349872 6y ago
          An advantage of being catholic is that one is able to give up religion for Lent. Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTx-sdR6Yzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTx-sdR6Yzk (unfortunately not Kneecap, because if they have anything to say about religion, I wouldn't have noticed, having no gaelic myself.)
• bobokanta 6y ago
  When we hear the word caste, we think of India, of poverty, inequality, and discrimination. But caste is a European non translatable, from Spanish-Portuguese "Casta". Racial purity or limpieza de sangre was at the root of this system. When Europeans colonised the Americas 500 years ago, they established a casta system in Mexico. France had three castes - nobility, clergy, and peasants. This unjust system came to and end with the French revolution. The Dutch established a caste system in Sri Lanka. After colonising Philipines, Spain started a caste system there. The unehrliche Leute were the outcastes of Germany, the latrine cleaners, skinners and grave diggers. England had four castes - king, nobles, knights and peasants. Gongfermours, the toilet cleaners were outcastes in London. The Romanis were outcastes for thousand years. Caste is quintessentially European. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734
  • bmn__ 6y ago
    The caste system in what is now India is entirely of their own making.
  • eyko 6y ago
    Rest assured, nobody is thinking of the Spanish-Portuguese casta system when they talk about Indian caste. We might use the same word but I don't think anyone is familiar enough with the Spanish usage in the Americas for it to bring about a misunderstanding. But you make a very good point. For non Spanish speakers or people not familiar with the Spanish casta system, it's synonymous with breed and lineage. Before the "Conquista", the lineage was focused on nobility Vs peasants. During the conquista, it shifted to a racial pecking order. The idea that the Spanish casta (castizo) was at the top of the pyramid, and any mixtures with other races put you at different levels in that pyramid. For instance a white castizo mixed with a black person would be mulato, but a white non-castizo like a Dutch or English white mixed with a black would give you a lower but similar caste. Your caste had implications in social and political life -- access to property, being able to hold certain jobs, etc. It quickly became unworkable because of the ever growing degrees of "mestizaje". I don't know if India has a similar idea (what caste are you when a dalit mixes with a Brahmin?), but as you've mentioned, it's worth noting that the word we use for the Indian Varna does come a Spanish word (which in turn probably has Nordic roots) for a very different race/lineage based caste system.
• FlyingSnake 6y ago
  My 2 cents about my experience in growing up in rural central India, which hosts several major Scheduled Tribes (Adivasis) and Neo-Buddhists (erstwhile dalits). * Modern caste system isn't the same as the one in 19th, 18th and 17th Century. Different groups climbed up and down the ladder, aided by the socio-political movements. * The modern version of caste is more about social prestige, and status. In my experience whenever people were curious about my caste it was to know what tribe you belong. Just like people asked me regularly where I was "actually" from in EU and US. * A lot of rural Indians aren't well versed with the metropolitan western concept of egalité, because the Dharmic system functions differently. This means the closest frame of reference is the caste system to know one's place in the pecking order. Same structures can be found in Japan and Korea. * The Dalits are a formidable political force now and a lot of caste based discrimination is done by non-Brahmins who fear the reduction of their share of the pie. I've seen brahmins being on receiving end of the caste based discrimination, countless no. of times. * Caste system in corporate world is cloak-and-daggers game and goes hand in hand with using language, region, culture etc to further their aims. A Marathi Kunbi might be favoured by a Marathi manager over a Bengali Kayastha. * I studied in a Govt. college which has more than 50% seats reserved for SC/ST/OBC/NT and I have first hand experience that caste is not an indicator of talent.
  • 8589934591 6y ago
    > The Dalits are a formidable political force now and a lot of caste based discrimination is done by non-Brahmins who fear the reduction of their share of the pie. I've seen brahmins being on receiving end of the caste based discrimination, countless no. of times. This is a point I feel many people miss out. The non brahmin upper castes are never pointed out in the discussions related to caste discrimination. Somehow it's always the brahmins vs lower caste. As if there are no "upper" castes apart from brahmins. For example, in Tamil Nadu, there are a lot of non Brahmin upper castes namely nadar, vanniyar, mudaliyar, thevar, gounder, kallar, vellalar, naikkar, chettiar, reddy and many more. These non brahmin upper castes spew the misinformation that brahmins are the reason for caste discrimination when they themselves practice it. They would advocate that their (non brahmin) community should marry a brahmin girl to show superiority since male > female. But the same community would oppose, even use violence to prevent marriages between themselves and a "lower" caste, esp if the girl is from the "higher" and the boy is from a "lower" caste. These are the same hypocritical retards who keep saying brahmins are the only ones who show caste discrimination. People should start noticing and acknowledging this aspect of discrimination too esp since they are the majority of the population who drive the narrative.
• raincom 6y ago
  Jati-s (castes) exist. Does 'the caste system' exist? No one has proved it. What people do to prove the existence of such a system: injustices, one verse from Purusha sukta, some verses from Manu, another verse from Gita.
  • henru 6y ago
    How do caste based injustices do not prove the existence of a caste system?
    • raincom 6y ago
      Good question. In India, caste is not unique to just 'hinduism', it is there among Christians and Muslims. In fact, in many villages, no one asks others 'what religion do you belong to'. The question if ever asked is "what caste one belongs to" In some parts of south India I am familiar with the caste muslims belong to is called "turaka". There is another caste in muslims, they belong to cotton weaving. Tha caste name is "pinjara", etc. Just because pinjara and turaka are muslims, they don't marry across the caste lines. Even among muslims, I heard, sheikhs marry sheikhs, pathans marry pathans, etc. Same thing goes with 'oppressed castes' or Dalits: there are many castes in SC; they don't marry across castes. Where do you see injustices? Since everyone in (at least rural) India belongs to some caste, does every injustice becomes a "caste injustice"? In south India, Brahmins, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas (the standard Manu story) are not powerful at all. Some castes from Sudras are powerful in some villages; not every caste is powerful across the cross section of India: caste A in village X is powerful; however, the same caste A is super weak in village Y. The powerful have two characteristics: they have more land or they have more relatives in village who can come to aid you or both. Whenever there is an irresolvable dispute between two parties in villages, this leads to fights. Imagine this dispute between a muslim farmer and a hindu farmer, and this hindu farmer goes and moves the land border by 10% more. Muslim farmer goes to the village elders, who belong to neither one religion nor one caste. Elders also agree that it is "anyaaya" to take that 10% land, however this hindu farmer doesn't listen. What's next? A fight ensues. Is this fight caste fight? Is this fight communal? Do all hindus in the village support this hindu farmer? Definitely not. Do all caste members of this hindu farmer support him? Not at all. In fact, his caste members also say "it is anyaaya". So, what happens in such cases is: just raw power wins. In some cases, this raw power also helps 'oppressed castes'. I know many cases where "oppressed castes" just use the legal threat to do all kinds of "anyaaya". In one case, they are sending sewage of all their streets to a farmer land. When this farmer complains, these 'oppresed' people threaten with some SC law. Even govt officials can't do anything. About the system. Any system requires reproduction, continuity, some kind of dynamic. Which social scientist has laid bare of such mechanism of caste system? Let me paste this thought experiment from here[1]: ---------- As an example, consider one of the things that Europe ‘knows’ about India: the Indian caste system. Almost everyone I know has very firm moral opinions on the subject. Many see in it the origin of all kinds of evils in India: from the denial of human rights to oppression; some see in it obstacles to progress and modernization and so on. I suppose we agree that we need to understand a phenomenon before making moral judgments. With this in mind, if you try and find out what this famous caste system is, and why people either attack or defend it, you discover the following: no ancient book exists that tells us what the principles of the caste system are; no Indian can tell you about its structure or its organization; no scientific theory has been developed that explains how or why it continues to exist. Simply put, nobody understands what it is or how it functions. In that case, how can anyone be pro or contra the caste system? If we focus on how people normally describe this system and understand how easy it is to turn such a description upside down, the absurdity of the situation becomes obvious. While emphasizing that I do not attack and much less defend the caste system in what follows, let us look at the existing descriptions and their consequences. (a) Caste is an antiquated social system that arose in the dim past of India. If this is true, it has survived many challenges – the onslaught of Buddhism and the Bhakti movements, the Islamic and British colonization, Indian independence, world capitalism – and might even survive ‘globalization’. It follows, then, that the caste system is a very stable social organization. (b) There exists no centralized authority to enforce the caste system across the length and breadth of India. In that case, it is an autonomous and decentralized organization. (c) All kinds of social and political regulations, whether by the British or by the Indians, have not been able to eradicate this system. If true, it means that the caste system is a self-reproducing social structure. (d) Caste system exists among the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Jains, the Christians, the Muslims… It has also existed under different environments. This means that this system adapts itself to the environments it finds itself in. (e) Because new castes have come and gone over the centuries, this system must also be dynamic. (f) Since caste system is present in different political organizations and survives under different political regimes, it is also neutral with respect to political ideologies. Even though more can be said, this is enough for us. A simple redescription of what we think we know about the caste system tells us that it is an autonomous, decentralized, stable, adaptive, dynamic, self-reproducing social organization. It is also neutral with respect to political, religious and economic doctrines and environments. If indeed such a system ever existed, would it also not have been the most ideal form of social organization one could ever think of? [1] https://www.hipkapi.com/2015/10/01/what-can-india-offer/ https://www.hipkapi.com/2015/10/01/what-can-india-offer/
• furyroad 6y ago
  I have been following the discussions on caste here at HN and other forums. I noticed that whenever this topic comes up, there are some arguments brought up to either deny the existence of the caste system in modern India or to blame it entirely on the European rulers or portray it as a noble social system that was hijacked for political purposes. Let me address these points. 1. Caste system was a thing of the past I was born in India in a Hindu family and lived there for most of my life, until recently. I left the country because, among other reasons, I did a inter-caste marriage and was afraid of the repercussions. I was raised in a big city but had close ties to my ancestral village where my grandparents and extended family live. I can attest that the caste system does exist in all spheres of life and it is more pronounced in rural areas but less visible in urban centers. The caste system decides who you can marry, where you can live and even where you will be buried when you are dead. I have faced casteism at school, work and personal life. I have seen, as clear as daylight, numerous other incidents of caste based discrimination and violence both subtle and overt. Some recent incidents in the news throws light on how invasive these practices are. Hyderabad, a tech hub on par with Bangalore, had an incident of Honor Killing last week, which is just one of many such incidents. [1] Low caste people are still forced to live in secluded parts called Dalit Colonies and are not allowed to freely enter the main sections of the village, where the upper castes live. [2] There still exist separate burial and cremation grounds for low caste people.[3][4][5] These are just some of the manifestations of the system. There are many day to day practices that are considered normal behavior by the society. India's popular matrimonial sites has separate sections for each caste.[6] You can see many house lease offers in popular classifieds websites saying "Vegetarians only". This is a form of Dog whistling as most upper castes are vegetarian.[7] 2. Caste system was introduced by British rulers to divide Indians. Most people cite to the census carried out by the British, but conveniently forget that the census just formally documented the existing caste demographics for administrative purposes; not invent it. The caste system has roots in vedic culture and existed for at-least two millennia before Europeans ruled India. The religious laws such as Manusmriti and Dharmasutra extensively documents the caste system. Any one who reads those scriptures can understand that the ancient civil laws were entirely based on caste. I see this argument as a way to deflect the blame on foreign rulers without accepting the flaws that were inherent to the Hindu religion. 1. https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/crime/260920/man-hacked-to-death-by-wifes-family-in-honour-killing.html https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/crime/260920/man-hack... 2. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/path-to-dalit-colony-remains-blocked-for-nine-months/articleshow/71571974.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/coimbatore/path-to-... 3. https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/denied-access-crematorium-madurai-dalits-forced-wait-corpse-rain-108246 https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/denied-access-cremator... 4. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-landrights-caste-trfn/denied-in-life-indias-lower-caste-dalits-fight-for-land-in-death-idUSKBN20T0T1 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-landrights-caste-tr... 5. https://sabrangindia.in/article/dalits-obcs-forced-bury-their-deceased-roadsid https://sabrangindia.in/article/dalits-obcs-forced-bury-thei... 6. https://www.shaadi.com/matrimony/reddy-matrimony https://www.shaadi.com/matrimony/reddy-matrimony 7. https://www.nobroker.in/property/2-BHK-apartment-for-rent-in-Vijaya-Nagar---Only-Vegetarian-bangalore-for-rs-0/ff8081815c62583c015c62681aec02d5/detail https://www.nobroker.in/property/2-BHK-apartment-for-rent-in...
• Arun2009 6y ago
  The basic problem is that hierarchical organization of the society where a human's worth is determined by his birth is a core classical Hindu (i.e., "Brahmanical") value; egalitarianism is not. Either Hindus must rewrite the theology of Hinduism to accept an interpretation of the concept of varNa in a way that is concordant with humanistic and egalitarian ideals, or Hindus must accept that Hinduism will be reduced to a minority religion in India. I can't imagine why anyone would agree to be part of a religion that formally considers him or her as a lower class human by birth than certain other humans in the same religion.
• jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  As long as there is no illegal discrimination, what is wrong with asking and knowing if people you work with are people you relate to better in terms of religion? If I am a Brahmin, why wouldn’t I want to know if my co worker is also a Brahmin? Ivy League, for example..is the caste system of the US. Are we going to abolish them? This is an absurd article. It is absolutely cringe worthy. Shame on NPR. An egalitarian society is one which is open and people accept others despite their differences. And not because it would be politically incorrect or legally vulnerable to do so..this kind of nonsense narratives is why we have acrimonious and hostile societies. If there is a wound, let it build up pus and burst open. Letting it fester until a suppurating wound kicks you into septic shock is really not advisable. There is no diversity without differences. If we are all same, it’s called being homogenous. Not diverse.
  • john4532452 6y ago
    You are looking the caste equivalent to the tribe. It is not. A European college being happy to see a fellow European on a international team is not the same as a two people associating with caste. Caste is a system designed based on the "division of laborers", not labor(very important distinguishing) to promote privilege by birth and monopoly of education to some and denial to the rest. By "division of laborers" i mean if a person is born in a non priestly caste they will be denied education and its impossible to change caste. This was the case until the Britishers arrived to india and you see majority of the indians are first graduates in the family now because of denial of education to their forefathers. This is the reason caste system must not be encouraged at all.
    • jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      That is not my understanding and reading of indian caste system at all. There is no indian text on caste that says that non priestly class must be denied education. Many priestly classes go without formal education. One must remember that when the Indian caste system was formalized, ‘education’ as we know of it now was not the same. Before the British arrived in India, nobody was a ‘graduate’ because that kind of educational system doesn’t exist. Priestly classes were educated in religious texts. The warriors were well versed in combat and kings with governance. Merchants knew math and sciences. The working class did manual labour. The priests were not allowed to own property and should only live on charity. They had the ear of the King who should be willing to die for his people. The merchants were rich but they bore the burden of taxes so the whole machine can be funded. The working class was integral because without them nothing would move ahead. Everyone had the other by the balls and unless they played along nice, the whole set of cards would come tumbling down. Everyone had power. The priestly classes were not ‘special’. The Dalits were outside the caste system. They simply didn’t belong because they neither had the protection or balance of the caste system in place. Everyone exploited them. The narrative that the priestly class were the only ones with access to education or that they were wealthy is beyond nonsense. If anything the priest class was vulnerable because historically and religiously they were not supposed to accumulate wealth. Their only job is to study the religious texts and offer it for public good. When the British eliminated kingdoms, they lost their benefactors and were also poor and didn’t bear arms. Their only strength was the generational dedication to education and accumulation of knowledge. That they used as an asset to survive and create a living for themselves. This is the 400 year old story of my lineage and family tree. Not all Brahmins could be ‘smart’ and climb the social ladder with education. Because of inbreeding due to the religious laws in place, you will find genius and extreme intellectual retardation in the same family tree. It’s the same with genetic diseases. It is similar to Judaism and Zorashtrian Parsis. I am honestly surprised where the more common kind of information about Indian caste system comes from...it is inflammatory and untrue to divide indian caste system as Brahmin vs Dalit. Dalits are not even part of the caste system. They were ‘outside’ society’s ladder. It is utter nonsense that Brahmins are ‘privileged’ class. The only privileged class were the merchants. When the British got rid of kings..you know.. the East Indian TRADING company...the sought the merchants as allies and turned one weak vulnerable caste against another weak vulnerable caste shattering the equilibrium with their tried and tested divide and rule strategy. 70 something years later, they are still winning..indians are still fighting and divided. Why isn’t anyone looking at the role the British played and their meddlesome shenanigans of turning us against us? Anywhere they went, they divided the people...India used to include Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc. Israel and Palestine. Ireland. Job done and no one is talking about the real villain. Machiavelli would have gone, ‘well done’’
• srtjstjsj 6y ago
  I saw a blog post about castes and 10 ways to figh casteism or whatever, and it looked like a run of the mill USA Black anti-racism listicle but with s/Black/[name of caste];s/White/[name of caste] At first I thought sure the issues must be similar, but then it seemed too exactly the same and I decided it must have been copied from some US site and then minimally translated to use Indian groups. There are a issues that are important in India/casteism but not in US/racism, like job applications that require a biography of the applicant's parents.