4 ms·

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be pro

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets should bear harsh consequences, we need a bit better criteria of what "racist" actually means.

staticassertion 6y ago
As with all things there is a judgment to be made, and as the one doing the hiring it is yours to make responsibly.
minitoar 6y ago
What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?
- deelowe 6y ago
  I doubt there is one.
  - minitoar 6y ago
    Does that mean the concept has no value, or that racist tweets do not exist (since they cannot be easily defined)?
    - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
      He means that there is no racist comment that can be posted on Twitter that he feels should result in affecting one's employment.
      - deelowe 6y ago
        No. I mean, I doubt we as a society could come up with a definition that's sufficiently specific and durable enough to apply this level of scrutiny. We can't even agree on the proper term for certain races.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  It's a tweet that explicitly promotes superiority or inferiority of one race relative to other races.
  - deelowe 6y ago
    Awesome. Now define all of the races such that they are specific enough to create legal interpretations of promote, superiority, and inferiority in such a way that relative comparisons can be made.
  - lopmotr 6y ago
    What if one race really is superior or inferior to another? For example "Tibetans are better at surviving at high altitudes than Han Chinese" Fact but racist according to that definition. Harsh consequences for scientists talking about their work?
    - rimliu 6y ago
      High altitudes are a social construct, duh.
- bluGill 6y ago
  There shouldn't be one. Everything bad about a racist tweet is bad when race isn't an issue. Society has switched what it is racist about many times in the past. Just 100 years ago (WWI was just over) it was worse to be German than black in the US. Someone told me that in the 1870s the KKK had many black members - the group was against Catholics not blacks, but they changed (I do not know if this is true, but even if false it isn't unlikely). It will switch again. Whatever your law is needs to cover all cases, otherwise it will be worked around quickly.
  - AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
    The definition can refer to any innate quality. The whole idea of these rules is to avoid discriminating people based on something outside of their control: color, gender, height, age, country of origin and so on.
  - rmah 6y ago
    That assertion about the KKK is, in fact, a myth. The KKK was founded in 1865, just after the US Civil War, and had as a bedrock principal the re-establishment of white supremacy. It's initial actions were to frustrate Reconstruction-era policies through violent action. Today, they'd be labeled a terrorist organization. Their aims were inherently racist, political and their tactics violent. Through a variety of means, they more or less achieved their goals such that by 1876, the entire south was once again under Democratic control. It wasn't until the revival of the "second wave" of the KKK during 1910's and 1920's that they even started taking on anti-catholic stances. It was during this era that the burning cross, anti-communist, anti-catholic and anti-jewish stances came into being. Finally, I have no idea where you got the idea that the KKK had "many black members". As far as I'm aware, no credible evidence for that has ever been put forward.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      That is why I was clear that it wasn't a source I would trust.
- GeoAtreides 6y ago
  "[Do bad things] to [racial minority|racial group]!" The definition of "bad things" is left as an exercise to the reader.
  - mistermann 6y ago
    I wonder, if one could go even farther in your generalization such that it would apply to ~all human activity, might people be able to semi-realize that "The definition of <X> is left as an exercise to the reader", where "an exercise to the reader" actually consists of the reader's conceptualization of reality (much of which is pure imagination, mistaken for fact), and from there perhaps realize that this is what lies at the heart of most human conflict and failures? It seems like quite the tall order, but then humanity has a very long list of conquered tall orders, because some people were willing to pursue the "impossible", and we also happen to be blessed with some very powerful tools (some of which often work against us).
TLightful 6y ago
"Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like"" "Usually" ... LOL ...
content_sesh 6y ago
The vast majority of those incarcerated in America have taken plea deals. The only source I could find from a government agency is a 1984 report from the BJS but it's fairly staggering - median ratio of 11 guilty pleas for every trial[1]. More recent nongovernmental sources paint a very similar picture [2][3] So whatever your feeling about the standard of proof in a criminal trial, the vast majority of those incarcerated never actually went through one. [1] https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3498 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3498 [2] https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-criminal-trials-on-the-decline/ https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-cr... [3] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-and-the-innocent https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin...
x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
Proof of criminal law in the US is notoriously low. Police perjury especially concerning marginalized groups is routine business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-polic...
- infamouscow 6y ago
  Have you ever been on a jury?
FpUser 6y ago
>"The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" This is nice theory which in practice often comes down to: you can not afford proper defense (unless you want government lawyer who will happily sleep through the whole case), you do not have enough to make bail so here is the deal: plead guilty to this lesser crime or we would f,,k you up royally later on.

staticassertion 6y ago

As with all things there is a judgment to be made, and as the one doing the hiring it is yours to make responsibly.

minitoar 6y ago

What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?

deelowe 6y ago
I doubt there is one.
- minitoar 6y ago
  Does that mean the concept has no value, or that racist tweets do not exist (since they cannot be easily defined)?
  - x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago
    He means that there is no racist comment that can be posted on Twitter that he feels should result in affecting one's employment.
    - deelowe 6y ago
      No. I mean, I doubt we as a society could come up with a definition that's sufficiently specific and durable enough to apply this level of scrutiny. We can't even agree on the proper term for certain races.
AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
It's a tweet that explicitly promotes superiority or inferiority of one race relative to other races.
- deelowe 6y ago
  Awesome. Now define all of the races such that they are specific enough to create legal interpretations of promote, superiority, and inferiority in such a way that relative comparisons can be made.
- lopmotr 6y ago
  What if one race really is superior or inferior to another? For example "Tibetans are better at surviving at high altitudes than Han Chinese" Fact but racist according to that definition. Harsh consequences for scientists talking about their work?
  - rimliu 6y ago
    High altitudes are a social construct, duh.
bluGill 6y ago
There shouldn't be one. Everything bad about a racist tweet is bad when race isn't an issue. Society has switched what it is racist about many times in the past. Just 100 years ago (WWI was just over) it was worse to be German than black in the US. Someone told me that in the 1870s the KKK had many black members - the group was against Catholics not blacks, but they changed (I do not know if this is true, but even if false it isn't unlikely). It will switch again. Whatever your law is needs to cover all cases, otherwise it will be worked around quickly.
- AlexTWithBeard 6y ago
  The definition can refer to any innate quality. The whole idea of these rules is to avoid discriminating people based on something outside of their control: color, gender, height, age, country of origin and so on.
- rmah 6y ago
  That assertion about the KKK is, in fact, a myth. The KKK was founded in 1865, just after the US Civil War, and had as a bedrock principal the re-establishment of white supremacy. It's initial actions were to frustrate Reconstruction-era policies through violent action. Today, they'd be labeled a terrorist organization. Their aims were inherently racist, political and their tactics violent. Through a variety of means, they more or less achieved their goals such that by 1876, the entire south was once again under Democratic control. It wasn't until the revival of the "second wave" of the KKK during 1910's and 1920's that they even started taking on anti-catholic stances. It was during this era that the burning cross, anti-communist, anti-catholic and anti-jewish stances came into being. Finally, I have no idea where you got the idea that the KKK had "many black members". As far as I'm aware, no credible evidence for that has ever been put forward.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    That is why I was clear that it wasn't a source I would trust.
GeoAtreides 6y ago
"[Do bad things] to [racial minority|racial group]!" The definition of "bad things" is left as an exercise to the reader.
- mistermann 6y ago
  I wonder, if one could go even farther in your generalization such that it would apply to ~all human activity, might people be able to semi-realize that "The definition of <X> is left as an exercise to the reader", where "an exercise to the reader" actually consists of the reader's conceptualization of reality (much of which is pure imagination, mistaken for fact), and from there perhaps realize that this is what lies at the heart of most human conflict and failures? It seems like quite the tall order, but then humanity has a very long list of conquered tall orders, because some people were willing to pursue the "impossible", and we also happen to be blessed with some very powerful tools (some of which often work against us).

TLightful 6y ago

"Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like"" "Usually" ... LOL ...

content_sesh 6y ago

The vast majority of those incarcerated in America have taken plea deals. The only source I could find from a government agency is a 1984 report from the BJS but it's fairly staggering - median ratio of 11 guilty pleas for every trial[1]. More recent nongovernmental sources paint a very similar picture [2][3] So whatever your feeling about the standard of proof in a criminal trial, the vast majority of those incarcerated never actually went through one. [1] https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3498 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=3498 [2] https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-criminal-trials-on-the-decline/ https://www.innocenceproject.org/guilty-pleas-on-the-rise-cr... [3] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-and-the-innocent https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin...

x86_64Ubuntu 6y ago

Proof of criminal law in the US is notoriously low. Police perjury especially concerning marginalized groups is routine business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-polic...

infamouscow 6y ago
Have you ever been on a jury?

FpUser 6y ago

>"The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" This is nice theory which in practice often comes down to: you can not afford proper defense (unless you want government lawyer who will happily sleep through the whole case), you do not have enough to make bail so here is the deal: plead guilty to this lesser crime or we would f,,k you up royally later on.