5 ms·

My prof gave me zero because ProctorU Review+ said that I was talking

61 points by afandian 6y ago

pwinnski 6y ago
I think the software probably did what it's designed to do, right? She talked, it said she was talking. I haven't seen the interface, but I doubt it said (or cared) that she was talking to herself. The entire point of these tools is that the prof or a TA or someone should have reviewed the video. Blame the wielder of the tool, not the tool.
- afandian 6y ago
  I'd label the salespeople "wielders" not over-pressured teachers.
- DLay 6y ago
  It’s been years since I’ve used ProctorU. Is it automated now? When I used it someone watched me via webcam for the entire duration of the exam.
raxxorrax 6y ago
I give ProctorU a zero for employing Flash and having their database leaked online. https://www.hackread.com/online-exam-tool-proctoru-breach-database-leak/ https://www.hackread.com/online-exam-tool-proctoru-breach-da...
afandian 6y ago
I've seen so many of these stories that penalize people because of skin colour, neurodiversity etc, that I felt it was time for a discussion on HN. I feel for everyone on the recieving end of ProctorU or ProctorIO or similar. The teachers are in an unfamiliar high-stress situation and they are sold the promise of tools to make skeuomorphic translations into remote work.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > teachers are in an unfamiliar high-stress situation and they are sold the promise of tools to make skeuomorphic translations into remote work I don’t blame the professor using the tool. I blame them for reporting it as academic dishonesty without attempting to do any diligence whatsoever. That’s lazy behaviour totally lacking in integrity.
- grandmczeb 6y ago
  > I've seen so many of these stories that penalize people because of skin colour Wow, that’s terrible. Do you happen to have a link to a specific story? I’d be interested in reading about it.
  - afandian 6y ago
    https://venturebeat.com/2020/09/29/examsofts-remote-bar-exam-sparks-privacy-and-facial-recognition-concerns/ https://venturebeat.com/2020/09/29/examsofts-remote-bar-exam...
PeterStuer 6y ago
According to the comments apparently already appealed and reversed. Bad prof didn't review the actual footage before the sanction.
- thehappypm 6y ago
  My dad is a professor and I feel like he would have made this mistake too. He’s a good guy just really not tech savvy. I imagine if a red flag popped saying “this student broke the testing protocol” he would be much more likely to dish the standard punishment than try to use the confusing software to get to the bottom of it.
  - boublepop 6y ago
    I get that, my dad is an engineer and these days they use pretty complicated modeling software, so he just a ignores it and improvised material choices/dimensions and such during construction. I mean it’s not like it’s reasonable to expect trained professionals to know what they are doing or educate themselves on how the software they use works.
    - afandian 6y ago
      I've heard engineering defined as something like "using a proven set of techniques to solve a number of well described problems" . With covid there's a load of new difficult problems to solve, all of the usual in person tools are now prohibited, and staff are (at least in some places I heard) at risk of losing their pensions if they strike.
hirundo 6y ago
I sympathize with her but wish that kind of sniveling were reserved for the death of one's parent, child, bff, dog... At least pull yourself together off camera first please. It would help your case not to present as an oversized toddler.
- ambirex 6y ago
  I believe pain is relative and she is obviously under a lot of stress. I have decided that I am not in a position to judge what others are going through. I hope others would extend me the same courtesy.
- BuildTheRobots 6y ago
  I disagree. She's young, I hope this exam going wrong really is the absolutely worst thing that's happened to her so far. And considering the 10's of thousands of pounds/dollars of debt students are routinely getting into, and considering how highly fought collage, university and job placements are at the moment, I think she's got every right to be broken. Depending on the exam it has the potential to put back her education, career and earning prospects by years. Do I think any of this is actually right - well no; but it does seem to be the current reality.
  - csharptwdec19 6y ago
    You also left out the possibility that the student is under an IMMENSE amount of pressure to succeed from family. I've actually saw that happen a couple of times back in college (my university was good, but not in a good area,) where the pressure some students faced because they were the first one to go to college/etc. At a young age something like this could have a huge impact on how ones family views them.
  - ghgdynb1 6y ago
    BuildTheRobots is right. If we're really feeling that callous, we might as well calculate the value to her of a life-year (disability-adjusted for old age, naturally) for an elderly pet and show that the expected disutility to failing out of her university is comparable to that for the other calamities you're saying would justify her behavior. And if we're not in such a mood, we might as well recognize that she's more likely to get a wider audience and an acceptable solution by embarrassing both herself and the guilty parties here with a strong display of emotional distress.
falcolas 6y ago
This isn't just a professor, or non-tech-savy user problem. Amazon's AWS certification tests are equally idiotic. You have to pick up your computer and display that your environment is "clean" of any tech devices, they monitor your computer, and will watch for any sign that there's another person or device in use. I've heard of a lot of false positives (which require another sweep of the room) from my colleagues forced to take the test.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  do you have any more insight on what the cert tests involve? I would hope there's no need to download any kind of monitoring software or anything.
- captn3m0 6y ago
  Even the CKA exam administered by the Linux Foundation involved a invasive browser extension and similar monitoring. They support linux atleast, but only Chrome/Chromium. Can't find a link to the browser extension, but it shares the screen in a persistent manner from what I remember. They have similar clear desk policy: https://docs.linuxfoundation.org/tc-docs/certification/lf-candidate-handbook/exam-rules-and-policies https://docs.linuxfoundation.org/tc-docs/certification/lf-ca...
alanfranz 6y ago
ProctorU says she's talking. She WAS talking. The professor didn't watch the flagged video, though. Proctoring software doesn't say "fail". It just flags parts of the video for human review. Shitty teachers should be blamed. I don't understand the hatred for such software. The alternative would be to take exams at testing centers or campuses. Personal real world experience (I'm an OMSCS student): I was taking a ProctorTrack-proctored exam in a company meeting room. A colleague of mine hadn't read the company chat where I told I was not to be disturbed, and knocks on the door multiple times. I had to tell him to go away. After the exam, I immediately contacted my teachers explaining what happened. Zero problems. Another time, after starting the exam I realized I was in a bad body position (3-hours exam, I was in bed since the bedroom was the least cluttered room) and my back was hurting. I changed position by trying to keep my face in the webcam at all times (but for sure I failed for some seconds) , and again I contacted my teachers afterwards. Zero problems. I'm sure my video was flagged both times.
- afandian 6y ago
  If the results are that unreliable, can you imagine how many false positives it must raise? And how much load that must put on the supervising staff who likely haven't got as much experience? It almost seems structurally determined to produce low quality results. > I changed position by trying to keep my face in the webcam at all times (but for sure I failed for some seconds) Honestly, even having to attempt that sounds pretty dystopian.
  - alanfranz 6y ago
    > Honestly, even having to attempt that sounds pretty dystopian What's the alternative? A local testing center?
    - afandian 6y ago
      Accept that these are extraordinary times and pause. Don't just jump to skeuomorphs. There are surely other options, such as open-book exams, coursework, teacher assessment, predicted grades, deferred assessment?

61 points by afandian 6y ago

I think the software probably did what it's designed to do, right? She talked, it said she was talking. I haven't seen the interface, but I doubt it said (or cared) that she was talking to herself. The entire point of these tools is that the prof or a TA or someone should have reviewed the video. Blame the wielder of the tool, not the tool.

afandian 6y ago
I'd label the salespeople "wielders" not over-pressured teachers.
DLay 6y ago
It’s been years since I’ve used ProctorU. Is it automated now? When I used it someone watched me via webcam for the entire duration of the exam.

raxxorrax 6y ago

I give ProctorU a zero for employing Flash and having their database leaked online. https://www.hackread.com/online-exam-tool-proctoru-breach-database-leak/ https://www.hackread.com/online-exam-tool-proctoru-breach-da...

afandian 6y ago

I've seen so many of these stories that penalize people because of skin colour, neurodiversity etc, that I felt it was time for a discussion on HN. I feel for everyone on the recieving end of ProctorU or ProctorIO or similar. The teachers are in an unfamiliar high-stress situation and they are sold the promise of tools to make skeuomorphic translations into remote work.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> teachers are in an unfamiliar high-stress situation and they are sold the promise of tools to make skeuomorphic translations into remote work I don’t blame the professor using the tool. I blame them for reporting it as academic dishonesty without attempting to do any diligence whatsoever. That’s lazy behaviour totally lacking in integrity.
grandmczeb 6y ago
> I've seen so many of these stories that penalize people because of skin colour Wow, that’s terrible. Do you happen to have a link to a specific story? I’d be interested in reading about it.
- afandian 6y ago
  https://venturebeat.com/2020/09/29/examsofts-remote-bar-exam-sparks-privacy-and-facial-recognition-concerns/ https://venturebeat.com/2020/09/29/examsofts-remote-bar-exam...

PeterStuer 6y ago

According to the comments apparently already appealed and reversed. Bad prof didn't review the actual footage before the sanction.

thehappypm 6y ago
My dad is a professor and I feel like he would have made this mistake too. He’s a good guy just really not tech savvy. I imagine if a red flag popped saying “this student broke the testing protocol” he would be much more likely to dish the standard punishment than try to use the confusing software to get to the bottom of it.
- boublepop 6y ago
  I get that, my dad is an engineer and these days they use pretty complicated modeling software, so he just a ignores it and improvised material choices/dimensions and such during construction. I mean it’s not like it’s reasonable to expect trained professionals to know what they are doing or educate themselves on how the software they use works.
  - afandian 6y ago
    I've heard engineering defined as something like "using a proven set of techniques to solve a number of well described problems" . With covid there's a load of new difficult problems to solve, all of the usual in person tools are now prohibited, and staff are (at least in some places I heard) at risk of losing their pensions if they strike.

hirundo 6y ago

I sympathize with her but wish that kind of sniveling were reserved for the death of one's parent, child, bff, dog... At least pull yourself together off camera first please. It would help your case not to present as an oversized toddler.

ambirex 6y ago
I believe pain is relative and she is obviously under a lot of stress. I have decided that I am not in a position to judge what others are going through. I hope others would extend me the same courtesy.
BuildTheRobots 6y ago
I disagree. She's young, I hope this exam going wrong really is the absolutely worst thing that's happened to her so far. And considering the 10's of thousands of pounds/dollars of debt students are routinely getting into, and considering how highly fought collage, university and job placements are at the moment, I think she's got every right to be broken. Depending on the exam it has the potential to put back her education, career and earning prospects by years. Do I think any of this is actually right - well no; but it does seem to be the current reality.
- csharptwdec19 6y ago
  You also left out the possibility that the student is under an IMMENSE amount of pressure to succeed from family. I've actually saw that happen a couple of times back in college (my university was good, but not in a good area,) where the pressure some students faced because they were the first one to go to college/etc. At a young age something like this could have a huge impact on how ones family views them.
- ghgdynb1 6y ago
  BuildTheRobots is right. If we're really feeling that callous, we might as well calculate the value to her of a life-year (disability-adjusted for old age, naturally) for an elderly pet and show that the expected disutility to failing out of her university is comparable to that for the other calamities you're saying would justify her behavior. And if we're not in such a mood, we might as well recognize that she's more likely to get a wider audience and an acceptable solution by embarrassing both herself and the guilty parties here with a strong display of emotional distress.

falcolas 6y ago

This isn't just a professor, or non-tech-savy user problem. Amazon's AWS certification tests are equally idiotic. You have to pick up your computer and display that your environment is "clean" of any tech devices, they monitor your computer, and will watch for any sign that there's another person or device in use. I've heard of a lot of false positives (which require another sweep of the room) from my colleagues forced to take the test.

silicon2401 6y ago
do you have any more insight on what the cert tests involve? I would hope there's no need to download any kind of monitoring software or anything.
captn3m0 6y ago
Even the CKA exam administered by the Linux Foundation involved a invasive browser extension and similar monitoring. They support linux atleast, but only Chrome/Chromium. Can't find a link to the browser extension, but it shares the screen in a persistent manner from what I remember. They have similar clear desk policy: https://docs.linuxfoundation.org/tc-docs/certification/lf-candidate-handbook/exam-rules-and-policies https://docs.linuxfoundation.org/tc-docs/certification/lf-ca...

alanfranz 6y ago

ProctorU says she's talking. She WAS talking. The professor didn't watch the flagged video, though. Proctoring software doesn't say "fail". It just flags parts of the video for human review. Shitty teachers should be blamed. I don't understand the hatred for such software. The alternative would be to take exams at testing centers or campuses. Personal real world experience (I'm an OMSCS student): I was taking a ProctorTrack-proctored exam in a company meeting room. A colleague of mine hadn't read the company chat where I told I was not to be disturbed, and knocks on the door multiple times. I had to tell him to go away. After the exam, I immediately contacted my teachers explaining what happened. Zero problems. Another time, after starting the exam I realized I was in a bad body position (3-hours exam, I was in bed since the bedroom was the least cluttered room) and my back was hurting. I changed position by trying to keep my face in the webcam at all times (but for sure I failed for some seconds) , and again I contacted my teachers afterwards. Zero problems. I'm sure my video was flagged both times.

afandian 6y ago
If the results are that unreliable, can you imagine how many false positives it must raise? And how much load that must put on the supervising staff who likely haven't got as much experience? It almost seems structurally determined to produce low quality results. > I changed position by trying to keep my face in the webcam at all times (but for sure I failed for some seconds) Honestly, even having to attempt that sounds pretty dystopian.
- alanfranz 6y ago
  > Honestly, even having to attempt that sounds pretty dystopian What's the alternative? A local testing center?
  - afandian 6y ago
    Accept that these are extraordinary times and pause. Don't just jump to skeuomorphs. There are surely other options, such as open-book exams, coursework, teacher assessment, predicted grades, deferred assessment?