8 ms·

Honestly I don't find it to be newsworthy that you can find 21 doctors to sign just about anything. They are people, and people believe all kinds of stuff.

MattGaiser 6y ago
Especially when they have another petition in the article arguing for the opposite.
- neom 6y ago
  Interesting that on one (lockdown) side is mostly doctors in University Health Network and Unity Health Toronto (arguable the top hospitals in Canada), and the other (don't lockdown) letter is mostly professors at McMaster and University of Toronto (arguably the top medical schools in Canada).
  - MattGaiser 6y ago
    Probably just circulating petitions within their networks. The numbers are small enough that this could be little more than grabbing some colleagues through the intranet.
  - tastroder 6y ago
    Interesting. How's the discussion between those groups going there? The chasm here in Germany seems to range between a majority of epidemiologists and virologists advising on sensible measures going forward and a few economics folks, a bunch of private clinic doctors and a vocal group of clearly right wing / conspiracy people. The latter group either sings the tiring "it's just the flu" or "people die for many reasons anyway" song and can be seen on Twitter, discovering basic epidemiological models in real time. Their arguments are very similar to those of flat earthers honestly, precluding any notion of a grounded debate on what measures are sensible in order to keep the health system in working order and shield those that are vulnerable.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      >Their arguments are very similar to those of flat earthers honestly, precluding any notion of a grounded debate on what measures are sensible in order to keep the health system in working order and shield those that are vulnerable. From the opposite perspective, the people who keep insisting that measures like that are necessary to "keep the health system working" in spite of Sweden providing a strong counter-example (no lockdowns or masks, but deaths have steadily trended downards, there wasn't a second wave, and it isn't even in the top ten deaths-per-capita countries now) seem anti-science.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        Swrdish culture, support systems and economic incentives, and consequently behavior in the absence of mandates, and the Swedish health Systems, aren't the same as, for instance, the American versions of each of those. So, it makes little sense to assume that the behaviors necessary to protect the Swedish health system are identical to those which would be necessary for a dissimilar country, or that even if they were that they would necessarily be acheived by the same policies. The proof of this is that, Sweden, without a firm mandatory lockdown, experienced pretty much all the economic consequences of one—because without a mandate for lockdown, Sweden acheived the near behavioral equivalent.
      - tastroder 6y ago
        Yeah, I've read your other posts here. Note that I did not argue for a complete lockdown in my post but a grounded discussion of effective measures. This "but Sweden" argument is exactly how much of this discussion reads like a bunch of political nonsense. The UK tried a Sweden, saw it wasn't working, and switched policies. Sweden itself didn't have a full on lockdown but it's had other measures put in place (e.g. restriction of public gatherings that last I checked were now more restrictive than Germany) and we have plenty of places were heavier local outbreaks clearly led to the negative implications we want to avoid going forward (e.g. NYC, Italy). You're free to call that anti science but absolutism in the face of many unknowns isn't scientific either.
- galaxyLogic 6y ago
  I wonder if the Covid-19 lockdown actually harmed many (non-hospital) doctors financially, people can't make an appointment with them. Of course there is online but you can't charge much for no operations performed
deathgrips 6y ago
Because it goes against the narrative of lockdowns being a matter of "settled science".
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  I think any topic of "settled science" has expert detractors. But a lockdown can't be a matter of settled science because it it a question of priorities and tradeoffs, not of science. That is outside the domain of science and firmly in the domain of politics and economics.
  - mattigames 6y ago
    It only becomes a domain of politics and economics if you ignored the settled science for too long like it happened in the US, in countries like South Korea, Vietnam or New Zealand where they have now near zero cases it was as never a politics or economics issue.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      >South Korea, Vietnam or New Zealand where they have now near zero cases it was as never a politics or economics issue. How can you claim this when South Korea's response was completely different than Vietnam and New Zealand's (no forced lockdown/stay at home orders in Korea)? If they were all following settled science, presumably all those countries would have responded the same?
      - cutcss 6y ago
        Absolutely false, South Korea isolated the people with the disease after making very fast and swift vast amount of tests per day (30.000) after a joint effort with the private sector and such proceedings could be perfectly be labeled as "isolation"[0] which is exactly what a lockdown is. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea
p1necone 6y ago
Yep, literally anything where consensus among actual experts is largely settled in one direction, but it's been highly politicized by rabid right wingers pushing in the other direction because of their seemingly innate need to be aggressively wrong about fucking everytyhing will have small groups of "concerned experts" with petitions like this - see climate change, wearing seatbelts, net neutrality etc.
mattigames 6y ago
Yeah, tell me percentages, like 70% of doctors in Ontario agree on avoiding lockdowns and then that would have some weight.
8note 6y ago
That and they're doctors, rather than epidemiologists
tinus_hn 6y ago
I love how people say ‘Just listen to the experts’ and then go pick and choose the experts they say what they want. No no not these experts, listen to these ones.

MattGaiser 6y ago

Especially when they have another petition in the article arguing for the opposite.

neom 6y ago
Interesting that on one (lockdown) side is mostly doctors in University Health Network and Unity Health Toronto (arguable the top hospitals in Canada), and the other (don't lockdown) letter is mostly professors at McMaster and University of Toronto (arguably the top medical schools in Canada).
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  Probably just circulating petitions within their networks. The numbers are small enough that this could be little more than grabbing some colleagues through the intranet.
- tastroder 6y ago
  Interesting. How's the discussion between those groups going there? The chasm here in Germany seems to range between a majority of epidemiologists and virologists advising on sensible measures going forward and a few economics folks, a bunch of private clinic doctors and a vocal group of clearly right wing / conspiracy people. The latter group either sings the tiring "it's just the flu" or "people die for many reasons anyway" song and can be seen on Twitter, discovering basic epidemiological models in real time. Their arguments are very similar to those of flat earthers honestly, precluding any notion of a grounded debate on what measures are sensible in order to keep the health system in working order and shield those that are vulnerable.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    >Their arguments are very similar to those of flat earthers honestly, precluding any notion of a grounded debate on what measures are sensible in order to keep the health system in working order and shield those that are vulnerable. From the opposite perspective, the people who keep insisting that measures like that are necessary to "keep the health system working" in spite of Sweden providing a strong counter-example (no lockdowns or masks, but deaths have steadily trended downards, there wasn't a second wave, and it isn't even in the top ten deaths-per-capita countries now) seem anti-science.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      Swrdish culture, support systems and economic incentives, and consequently behavior in the absence of mandates, and the Swedish health Systems, aren't the same as, for instance, the American versions of each of those. So, it makes little sense to assume that the behaviors necessary to protect the Swedish health system are identical to those which would be necessary for a dissimilar country, or that even if they were that they would necessarily be acheived by the same policies. The proof of this is that, Sweden, without a firm mandatory lockdown, experienced pretty much all the economic consequences of one—because without a mandate for lockdown, Sweden acheived the near behavioral equivalent.
    - tastroder 6y ago
      Yeah, I've read your other posts here. Note that I did not argue for a complete lockdown in my post but a grounded discussion of effective measures. This "but Sweden" argument is exactly how much of this discussion reads like a bunch of political nonsense. The UK tried a Sweden, saw it wasn't working, and switched policies. Sweden itself didn't have a full on lockdown but it's had other measures put in place (e.g. restriction of public gatherings that last I checked were now more restrictive than Germany) and we have plenty of places were heavier local outbreaks clearly led to the negative implications we want to avoid going forward (e.g. NYC, Italy). You're free to call that anti science but absolutism in the face of many unknowns isn't scientific either.
galaxyLogic 6y ago
I wonder if the Covid-19 lockdown actually harmed many (non-hospital) doctors financially, people can't make an appointment with them. Of course there is online but you can't charge much for no operations performed

deathgrips 6y ago

Because it goes against the narrative of lockdowns being a matter of "settled science".

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
I think any topic of "settled science" has expert detractors. But a lockdown can't be a matter of settled science because it it a question of priorities and tradeoffs, not of science. That is outside the domain of science and firmly in the domain of politics and economics.
- mattigames 6y ago
  It only becomes a domain of politics and economics if you ignored the settled science for too long like it happened in the US, in countries like South Korea, Vietnam or New Zealand where they have now near zero cases it was as never a politics or economics issue.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    >South Korea, Vietnam or New Zealand where they have now near zero cases it was as never a politics or economics issue. How can you claim this when South Korea's response was completely different than Vietnam and New Zealand's (no forced lockdown/stay at home orders in Korea)? If they were all following settled science, presumably all those countries would have responded the same?
    - cutcss 6y ago
      Absolutely false, South Korea isolated the people with the disease after making very fast and swift vast amount of tests per day (30.000) after a joint effort with the private sector and such proceedings could be perfectly be labeled as "isolation"[0] which is exactly what a lockdown is. [0] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea https://ourworldindata.org/covid-exemplar-south-korea

p1necone 6y ago

Yep, literally anything where consensus among actual experts is largely settled in one direction, but it's been highly politicized by rabid right wingers pushing in the other direction because of their seemingly innate need to be aggressively wrong about fucking everytyhing will have small groups of "concerned experts" with petitions like this - see climate change, wearing seatbelts, net neutrality etc.

mattigames 6y ago

Yeah, tell me percentages, like 70% of doctors in Ontario agree on avoiding lockdowns and then that would have some weight.

8note 6y ago

That and they're doctors, rather than epidemiologists

tinus_hn 6y ago

I love how people say ‘Just listen to the experts’ and then go pick and choose the experts they say what they want. No no not these experts, listen to these ones.