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Rather we need to realign expectations of what college means. College as a means of preparing students for grad school accomplish those means perfectly. College

Rather we need to realign expectations of what college means. College as a means of preparing students for grad school accomplish those means perfectly. College as a means to train folks for the workforce, that's less perfect. I'd argue that we _shouldn't_ alter the purpose of college, but find new ways to fill the gap in the market for professional jobs that aren't research-focused (i.e. academia) or vocational. There's a very real middle-of-the-market segment of education/job training that's missing. Programming bootcamps are a good example of filling the middle-of-the-market, but they're probably too short and too simplistic to bring a graduate up to the real entry-level, junior developer. It illustrates, in my opinion, that something needs to exist between vocational schools and colleges to fill professional needs.

sidpatil 6y ago
Sounds like a job for community colleges.
- newguy1234 6y ago
  That is true but employers insist on people having bachelor's degrees. That's the problem so you have lots of people going to college that really only want to focus on career growth. Also these same employers are always complaining about how the new grads don't have the "skills" they want.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    Sounds like we need to figure out why employers want things that are not necessary for excelling at positions.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      Because they've externalized training costs, and the closest thing to what they want (without training people themselves) are people with BA/BS degrees. The best I've seen with an employer focusing on employee education to a non-BS/BA target was a USAF base that partnered with a nearby technical school to get a lot of mechanical and electronic technicians. But that's not the norm, and I suspect politics were involved to set up the program in the first place. EDIT: The other positive case I know of was NC partnering with the pharmaceutical (drug manufacturing) industry in the late '00s, but I have no idea how that turned out. They were partnering with community colleges and universities throughout the state to develop a targeted non-BS program for the drug manufacturers to pull from.
    - newguy1234 6y ago
      Employers, in general, just want to hire "smart" people and the BA degree has become symbolic of something that "smart" people have. So every employer uses it as a way to just screen out the "dumb" people. At the same time, employers increasingly want new employees to have some sort of skill set that can be applied to the job. If you listen to complaints from new grads you can see a common trend - "college did not prepare me for the real world", "college did not give me the skills I need to succeed" and so on. This is why I say we need to move away from the one size fits all view of college. We need BA degrees that are "career focused" and we need BA degrees that are more academic focused. It may also be wise to have a hybrid version as well.
      - Pet_Ant 6y ago
        > Employers, in general, just want to hire "smart" people and the BA degree has become symbolic of something that "smart" people have. So every employer uses it as a way to just screen out the "dumb" people. At the same time, employers increasingly want new employees to have some sort of skill set that can be applied to the job. Definitely this is the case. A degree is merely a signal. Eployers want the smartest 10% of the population. If they were left handed, employers would require left-handedness. What I find discouraging is how routine and repetitive most work is. It's like you are the paramedic at the county fair and you're job is bandaids on elbows, but you need to be an expert brain surgeon in case that comes up.
    - fullshark 6y ago
      Risk management. When every entry level position has 1000 bachelor's degree grad applicants to them why would you consider hiring someone without one? Then they build a resume and you only hire from junior pool when filling senior positions.
    - colinmhayes 6y ago
      Undergrad is 100% signaling if you're not STEM. Employers just want people who have what it takes to succeed in a difficult environment.
newguy1234 6y ago
True but the reality is there are a lot of people going to college purely for career growth. Accounting is a good example. People studying accounting want to be accountants, more or less. Right now college is a one-size fits all shoe and has only be slighting molded to fit both objectives. I would argue that we need to make a hard slip. The obvious career majors (accounting, business, marketing etc.) should become more career focused while the more traditional majors should focus on the traditional vision of college.
zdragnar 6y ago
The "what college is really for" line hasn't been true in a long time. Most if not all colleges programs advertise job placement rates for graduates, earning potential, and host career fairs, all aimed at undergraduate students (in addition to what the graduate schools offer of course). The end result is a mish-mash of idealism meets reality, and a lot of students take out loans to practice learning things that they'll not use again, all in the hoped of getting a job.
skybrian 6y ago
The perception that college is about getting a job is what allows many colleges to charge very high prices. If everyone were clear that it is not about getting a job, how many would be willing to take out student loans to do it?

sidpatil 6y ago

Sounds like a job for community colleges.

newguy1234 6y ago
That is true but employers insist on people having bachelor's degrees. That's the problem so you have lots of people going to college that really only want to focus on career growth. Also these same employers are always complaining about how the new grads don't have the "skills" they want.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  Sounds like we need to figure out why employers want things that are not necessary for excelling at positions.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    Because they've externalized training costs, and the closest thing to what they want (without training people themselves) are people with BA/BS degrees. The best I've seen with an employer focusing on employee education to a non-BS/BA target was a USAF base that partnered with a nearby technical school to get a lot of mechanical and electronic technicians. But that's not the norm, and I suspect politics were involved to set up the program in the first place. EDIT: The other positive case I know of was NC partnering with the pharmaceutical (drug manufacturing) industry in the late '00s, but I have no idea how that turned out. They were partnering with community colleges and universities throughout the state to develop a targeted non-BS program for the drug manufacturers to pull from.
  - newguy1234 6y ago
    Employers, in general, just want to hire "smart" people and the BA degree has become symbolic of something that "smart" people have. So every employer uses it as a way to just screen out the "dumb" people. At the same time, employers increasingly want new employees to have some sort of skill set that can be applied to the job. If you listen to complaints from new grads you can see a common trend - "college did not prepare me for the real world", "college did not give me the skills I need to succeed" and so on. This is why I say we need to move away from the one size fits all view of college. We need BA degrees that are "career focused" and we need BA degrees that are more academic focused. It may also be wise to have a hybrid version as well.
    - Pet_Ant 6y ago
      > Employers, in general, just want to hire "smart" people and the BA degree has become symbolic of something that "smart" people have. So every employer uses it as a way to just screen out the "dumb" people. At the same time, employers increasingly want new employees to have some sort of skill set that can be applied to the job. Definitely this is the case. A degree is merely a signal. Eployers want the smartest 10% of the population. If they were left handed, employers would require left-handedness. What I find discouraging is how routine and repetitive most work is. It's like you are the paramedic at the county fair and you're job is bandaids on elbows, but you need to be an expert brain surgeon in case that comes up.
  - fullshark 6y ago
    Risk management. When every entry level position has 1000 bachelor's degree grad applicants to them why would you consider hiring someone without one? Then they build a resume and you only hire from junior pool when filling senior positions.
  - colinmhayes 6y ago
    Undergrad is 100% signaling if you're not STEM. Employers just want people who have what it takes to succeed in a difficult environment.

newguy1234 6y ago

True but the reality is there are a lot of people going to college purely for career growth. Accounting is a good example. People studying accounting want to be accountants, more or less. Right now college is a one-size fits all shoe and has only be slighting molded to fit both objectives. I would argue that we need to make a hard slip. The obvious career majors (accounting, business, marketing etc.) should become more career focused while the more traditional majors should focus on the traditional vision of college.

zdragnar 6y ago

The "what college is really for" line hasn't been true in a long time. Most if not all colleges programs advertise job placement rates for graduates, earning potential, and host career fairs, all aimed at undergraduate students (in addition to what the graduate schools offer of course). The end result is a mish-mash of idealism meets reality, and a lot of students take out loans to practice learning things that they'll not use again, all in the hoped of getting a job.

skybrian 6y ago

The perception that college is about getting a job is what allows many colleges to charge very high prices. If everyone were clear that it is not about getting a job, how many would be willing to take out student loans to do it?