6 ms·

People keep moving the goal posts on this. Unless Sweden's health system implodes because the pandemic overwhelms it, their approach has obviously not been a t

People keep moving the goal posts on this. Unless Sweden's health system implodes because the pandemic overwhelms it, their approach has obviously not been a total failure. The rationale for the brute force lock-downs, AIUI, has always been to preserve the ability to treat patients. i.e. to not have all hospitals resembling the early scenes coming out of Lombardy Italy or Wuhan China. Sweden didn't institute draconian lock-downs, and never lost the ability to treat patients, never devolved into the utter chaos many predicted. We can't meaningfully compare other statistics like total deaths and economic impacts until the pandemic has run its course.

soperj 6y ago
How is it goal post moving? They have one of the highest death per capita in the world from Coronavirus. It's roughly equal to Italy's. To say it hasn't been a total failure doesn't mean it's something to emulate. >We can't meaningfully compare other statistics like total deaths and economic impacts until the pandemic has run its course. We can. Otherwise you wouldn't do anything differently at any time.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  He means the goal posts moved from "flattening the curve" to "save every last life". Maybe the goal shouldn't be to save every last life but to strike a better balance between living our lives freely and containing COVID to some extent.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    They also have the highest unemployment rate among neighboring countries, so it doesn't seem like they continued living their lives freely, either. In some places, like Sweden, many people have voluntarily adopted policies much more strict than required by law. In other places, like the US, many people have chosen to live lives much less strict than required by law. Government mandates alone don't make as good a basis for comparison as actual activity.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      The unemployment rate has been higher in Sweden than in Denmark before Covid-19 though, and similar to Norway (which it is today as well). It doesn't seem to have moved very differently from the neighboring countries. Useful statistics will hardly be available until the pandemic has come to a hold. It's too early to tell if e.g. Germany's approach of avoiding unemployment by massively increasing public debt is successful in the long run.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Deaths above median will tell the actual story. There are too many bad incentives on covid death reporting.
  - anthony_romeo 6y ago
    Please tell me the story of deaths above median. I'm dying to know.
- codeulike 6y ago
  In March/April many said Sweden was heading for disaster
travisoneill1 6y ago
Social distancing and masks only slow the spread, so unless these measures prevent healthcare system overload, they have only delayed and not prevented deaths. So yeah, since Sweden's healthcare system has not been overwhelmed, their approach has not been a failure.
- mcguire 6y ago
  The Swedish healthcare system was not overwhelmed in part because they only offered palliative to the elderly.
cwhiz 6y ago
Sweden flattened the curve and did it without authoritarian lockdowns. So of course lockdown proponents are upset. This desire to have the government force people and businesses to shut down is unnerving. Are people seriously this susceptible to authoritarianism when they are scared? The goal is to flatten the curve. We did it. Sweden did it. Why are people so happy to dunk on Sweden because Sweden didn’t follow authoritarian ideas?
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  Your interpretation of the world is fascinating.
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    I find it fascinating that people are happy to dunk on Sweden for NOT imposing authoritarian rules on their citizens. Are we not free people?
    - libraryatnight 6y ago
      We are. Free people that consent to laws in the interest of the public good. Ideally anyway.
      - rhino369 6y ago
        In the US, most of rules have been propagated by fiat, not lawmaking.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        >We are. Free people that consent to laws in the interest of the public good. Ideally anyway. Not necessarily. Optimizing the for the public good is a social utilitarian argument[1]. Absolute utilitarian is incompatible with personal freedom and justice, so most people put limits on it. Reasonable and moral people can differ on where this limit should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
atarian 6y ago
>People keep moving the goal posts on this. I think it's because the story is being politicized. People who want to reopen everything are saying it's a success. Whereas people who want to keep things closed are saying it's a failure.
mcguire 6y ago
My understanding is that Sweden did not attempt to treat elderly patients; it only provided palliative care. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-toll-on-swedens-elderly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-to..., for example) Then there's this, from back in May: https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86256 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86256

soperj 6y ago

How is it goal post moving? They have one of the highest death per capita in the world from Coronavirus. It's roughly equal to Italy's. To say it hasn't been a total failure doesn't mean it's something to emulate. >We can't meaningfully compare other statistics like total deaths and economic impacts until the pandemic has run its course. We can. Otherwise you wouldn't do anything differently at any time.

throwawaysea 6y ago
He means the goal posts moved from "flattening the curve" to "save every last life". Maybe the goal shouldn't be to save every last life but to strike a better balance between living our lives freely and containing COVID to some extent.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  They also have the highest unemployment rate among neighboring countries, so it doesn't seem like they continued living their lives freely, either. In some places, like Sweden, many people have voluntarily adopted policies much more strict than required by law. In other places, like the US, many people have chosen to live lives much less strict than required by law. Government mandates alone don't make as good a basis for comparison as actual activity.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    The unemployment rate has been higher in Sweden than in Denmark before Covid-19 though, and similar to Norway (which it is today as well). It doesn't seem to have moved very differently from the neighboring countries. Useful statistics will hardly be available until the pandemic has come to a hold. It's too early to tell if e.g. Germany's approach of avoiding unemployment by massively increasing public debt is successful in the long run.
cwhiz 6y ago
Deaths above median will tell the actual story. There are too many bad incentives on covid death reporting.
- anthony_romeo 6y ago
  Please tell me the story of deaths above median. I'm dying to know.
codeulike 6y ago
In March/April many said Sweden was heading for disaster

travisoneill1 6y ago

Social distancing and masks only slow the spread, so unless these measures prevent healthcare system overload, they have only delayed and not prevented deaths. So yeah, since Sweden's healthcare system has not been overwhelmed, their approach has not been a failure.

mcguire 6y ago
The Swedish healthcare system was not overwhelmed in part because they only offered palliative to the elderly.

cwhiz 6y ago

Sweden flattened the curve and did it without authoritarian lockdowns. So of course lockdown proponents are upset. This desire to have the government force people and businesses to shut down is unnerving. Are people seriously this susceptible to authoritarianism when they are scared? The goal is to flatten the curve. We did it. Sweden did it. Why are people so happy to dunk on Sweden because Sweden didn’t follow authoritarian ideas?

libraryatnight 6y ago
Your interpretation of the world is fascinating.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  I find it fascinating that people are happy to dunk on Sweden for NOT imposing authoritarian rules on their citizens. Are we not free people?
  - libraryatnight 6y ago
    We are. Free people that consent to laws in the interest of the public good. Ideally anyway.
    - rhino369 6y ago
      In the US, most of rules have been propagated by fiat, not lawmaking.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      >We are. Free people that consent to laws in the interest of the public good. Ideally anyway. Not necessarily. Optimizing the for the public good is a social utilitarian argument[1]. Absolute utilitarian is incompatible with personal freedom and justice, so most people put limits on it. Reasonable and moral people can differ on where this limit should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

atarian 6y ago

>People keep moving the goal posts on this. I think it's because the story is being politicized. People who want to reopen everything are saying it's a success. Whereas people who want to keep things closed are saying it's a failure.

mcguire 6y ago

My understanding is that Sweden did not attempt to treat elderly patients; it only provided palliative care. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-toll-on-swedens-elderly-families-blame-the-government-11592479430 https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-taking-a-high-to..., for example) Then there's this, from back in May: https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86256 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86256