4 ms·

A drug dealer on economists' theories about drug dealing

43 points by trustfundbaby 16y ago

Perceval 16y ago
As a student of international relations, this seems familiar to me. Liberal international relations theorists focus on economic variables as causal to a far greater degree than realists or constructivists, and have also imported a bunch of their methodologies from economics/econometrics. Realists tend to deny the primary importance of economics, going on about power and the animus dominandi like old saws. It's funny that in this NPR piece economists focus on all the monetary and financial risk aspects, while seemingly blind to the central motivation of the people on the streets: What's more, he really liked being a drug kingpin. I loved it. ... I felt like I was powerful. ... It was every man's dream to be free. ... I'd rather be doing that than anything else, almost. Power and independence, not money, were the ultimate goal. Very realist.
- dtegart 16y ago
  I think if you dig a bit deeper into most people's motivations for wanting to be rich, you will find out that independence is the really reason. Without any evidence I think that people want to be rich, so they don't have to worry about money.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    I think Aristotle Onassis' theory is a bit more accurate: “If women didn't exist, all the money in the world would have no meaning.” Furthermore, the best approximation to human behaviour I know is that human beings will do whatever it takes to maximise ... not their wealth, not their freedom, but... their status. For nice middle-class me, going to prison for drug dealing would be a huge step down in my status. For some kid in the ghetto, though, it could easily be the opposite.
    - sp332 16y ago
      My grandfather worked at a state prison in NH. He was friends with an inmate who made the prison his home. Whenever his sentence ended, he would break into a house and wait for the owner to find him and call the police to take him back to prison. He was a pretty nice guy, and fairly smart - he even helped critique the first electronic security system at the prison. (He picked the lock with a ballpoint pen and walked into the warden's office to tell him exactly what was wrong with the system!)
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      >"Furthermore, the best approximation to human behaviour I know is that human beings will do whatever it takes to maximise ... not their wealth, not their freedom, but... their status." // Many people choose to take on a lower "status" though. Chasing "the good life" or "down-sizing" for example. This is, to my mind at least, a hankering for something more meaningful than financial acumen or societal position.
      - hugh3 16y ago
        Well of course the great part and the worst flaw of my status-maximization theory is that it can't be disproved. The guy who gives up a high-paying job in finance to go become a starving artist is arguably maximising his status ("Oooh look at that guy following his dream and not caring about money") and so is the guy who makes the reverse decision ("Being an artist is for try-hard suckers, look at my money!"). It's hard to find an example of someone unambiguously lowering their own status, since voluntarily lowering your status in order to achieve some other aim can be, in itself, a status-raising activity.
        pbhjpbhj 16y ago
        It appears you're messing with your definition of status in order to make such statements. Could you give a succinct definition of what you mean by "status"? Status is defined by the general populus, others define your status, your place in the "pecking order". People regarding your actions as positive ('following his dream, blah blah') doesn't mean your status is increased. "a starving artist is arguably maximising his status" Yes, it depends on your definition of status .. so ...
  - Cushman 16y ago
    I wonder if you could frame this as an expression of basic economic principles. The very most valuable thing is that which cannot be bought for any price: time.
  - Perceval 16y ago
    Yeah there was a TED Talk that touched on money and happiness. Apparently $60,000/year was the cognitive (or material) line necessary so that the average person could stop worrying about money. http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory.html http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_exper... “Below 60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy, and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get. Above that, we get an absolutely flat line. I mean I’ve rarely seen lines so flat.”
michaelchisari 16y ago
I'm sure it's great to be a kingpin, but I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the low level dealers and other rank-and-file.
- schmittz 16y ago
  That's true, the best stories come from the middle or the bottom. The top guy says he'd make less, but would the bottom guys wind up making more? It's a potentially interesting business dynamic. Would you have more horizontal than vertical management structure?
bingaman 16y ago
Not just a drug dealer, but Freeway Ricky Ross, who arguably helped invent crack whose cocaine supplier was the Nicarguan Contras, the CIA-funded army of Iran-Contra fame. I love Planet Money, but I wish they'd gone a little deeper into his involvement with the contras. If you want to know more look into Gary Webb's series, Dark Alliance. The restored site is here: http://www.narconews.com/darkalliance/drugs/start.htm http://www.narconews.com/darkalliance/drugs/start.htm
- korch 16y ago
  Also worth watching: The Secret Government: The Constitution in Crisis, by Bill Moyers http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430# It's worth noting that Ricky Ross was one of the few people to actually be convicted and incarcerated as a consequence of the Iran-Contra scandal. Colonel Oliver North, the top Navy Admiral, the secretary of Defense, the ambassador to Iraq, the later director of DARPA, the former director of the CIA, and dozens of other high level military & executive branch staff were all convicted or plead guilty to charges in the Iran-Contra scandal. Who actually went to jail? None of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Convictions.2C_pardons_and_reinstatements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Conv... But Ricky Ross went to jail. He unfortunately was the inadvertent pawn in a shocking scheme where our government gave transport planes to illegally ship weapons to guerrillas, and then turn a blind eye when those same guerrillas used the planes to ship cocaine to southern California, directly to Ricky Ross, all the while taking advantage of the cover of military diplomatic immunity. If you're one of the gov't guys on top, not only are you untouchable, but if you do fall in public, the very system itself will bend over backwards to rescue you. But if you're one of the guys on the bottom, like Ricky Ross, you'll be the fall guy who takes the full brunt of the heat. Isn't it funny how the American justice system appears to work entirely backwards?

43 points by trustfundbaby 16y ago

As a student of international relations, this seems familiar to me. Liberal international relations theorists focus on economic variables as causal to a far greater degree than realists or constructivists, and have also imported a bunch of their methodologies from economics/econometrics. Realists tend to deny the primary importance of economics, going on about power and the animus dominandi like old saws. It's funny that in this NPR piece economists focus on all the monetary and financial risk aspects, while seemingly blind to the central motivation of the people on the streets: What's more, he really liked being a drug kingpin. I loved it. ... I felt like I was powerful. ... It was every man's dream to be free. ... I'd rather be doing that than anything else, almost. Power and independence, not money, were the ultimate goal. Very realist.

dtegart 16y ago
I think if you dig a bit deeper into most people's motivations for wanting to be rich, you will find out that independence is the really reason. Without any evidence I think that people want to be rich, so they don't have to worry about money.
- hugh3 16y ago
  I think Aristotle Onassis' theory is a bit more accurate: “If women didn't exist, all the money in the world would have no meaning.” Furthermore, the best approximation to human behaviour I know is that human beings will do whatever it takes to maximise ... not their wealth, not their freedom, but... their status. For nice middle-class me, going to prison for drug dealing would be a huge step down in my status. For some kid in the ghetto, though, it could easily be the opposite.
  - sp332 16y ago
    My grandfather worked at a state prison in NH. He was friends with an inmate who made the prison his home. Whenever his sentence ended, he would break into a house and wait for the owner to find him and call the police to take him back to prison. He was a pretty nice guy, and fairly smart - he even helped critique the first electronic security system at the prison. (He picked the lock with a ballpoint pen and walked into the warden's office to tell him exactly what was wrong with the system!)
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >"Furthermore, the best approximation to human behaviour I know is that human beings will do whatever it takes to maximise ... not their wealth, not their freedom, but... their status." // Many people choose to take on a lower "status" though. Chasing "the good life" or "down-sizing" for example. This is, to my mind at least, a hankering for something more meaningful than financial acumen or societal position.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Well of course the great part and the worst flaw of my status-maximization theory is that it can't be disproved. The guy who gives up a high-paying job in finance to go become a starving artist is arguably maximising his status ("Oooh look at that guy following his dream and not caring about money") and so is the guy who makes the reverse decision ("Being an artist is for try-hard suckers, look at my money!"). It's hard to find an example of someone unambiguously lowering their own status, since voluntarily lowering your status in order to achieve some other aim can be, in itself, a status-raising activity.
      - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
        It appears you're messing with your definition of status in order to make such statements. Could you give a succinct definition of what you mean by "status"? Status is defined by the general populus, others define your status, your place in the "pecking order". People regarding your actions as positive ('following his dream, blah blah') doesn't mean your status is increased. "a starving artist is arguably maximising his status" Yes, it depends on your definition of status .. so ...
- Cushman 16y ago
  I wonder if you could frame this as an expression of basic economic principles. The very most valuable thing is that which cannot be bought for any price: time.
- Perceval 16y ago
  Yeah there was a TED Talk that touched on money and happiness. Apparently $60,000/year was the cognitive (or material) line necessary so that the average person could stop worrying about money. http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory.html http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_exper... “Below 60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy, and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get. Above that, we get an absolutely flat line. I mean I’ve rarely seen lines so flat.”

michaelchisari 16y ago

I'm sure it's great to be a kingpin, but I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the low level dealers and other rank-and-file.

schmittz 16y ago
That's true, the best stories come from the middle or the bottom. The top guy says he'd make less, but would the bottom guys wind up making more? It's a potentially interesting business dynamic. Would you have more horizontal than vertical management structure?

bingaman 16y ago

Not just a drug dealer, but Freeway Ricky Ross, who arguably helped invent crack whose cocaine supplier was the Nicarguan Contras, the CIA-funded army of Iran-Contra fame. I love Planet Money, but I wish they'd gone a little deeper into his involvement with the contras. If you want to know more look into Gary Webb's series, Dark Alliance. The restored site is here: http://www.narconews.com/darkalliance/drugs/start.htm http://www.narconews.com/darkalliance/drugs/start.htm

korch 16y ago
Also worth watching: The Secret Government: The Constitution in Crisis, by Bill Moyers http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430# http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430# It's worth noting that Ricky Ross was one of the few people to actually be convicted and incarcerated as a consequence of the Iran-Contra scandal. Colonel Oliver North, the top Navy Admiral, the secretary of Defense, the ambassador to Iraq, the later director of DARPA, the former director of the CIA, and dozens of other high level military & executive branch staff were all convicted or plead guilty to charges in the Iran-Contra scandal. Who actually went to jail? None of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Convictions.2C_pardons_and_reinstatements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair#Conv... But Ricky Ross went to jail. He unfortunately was the inadvertent pawn in a shocking scheme where our government gave transport planes to illegally ship weapons to guerrillas, and then turn a blind eye when those same guerrillas used the planes to ship cocaine to southern California, directly to Ricky Ross, all the while taking advantage of the cover of military diplomatic immunity. If you're one of the gov't guys on top, not only are you untouchable, but if you do fall in public, the very system itself will bend over backwards to rescue you. But if you're one of the guys on the bottom, like Ricky Ross, you'll be the fall guy who takes the full brunt of the heat. Isn't it funny how the American justice system appears to work entirely backwards?