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The problem with compiler and standard lib bugs is it's the last thing you suspect. You're always going to look at your own code first, because 99/100 it's you

The problem with compiler and standard lib bugs is it's the last thing you suspect. You're always going to look at your own code first, because 99/100 it's you and not them. You're never going to immediately think "compiler bug", your first port of call is gonna be "I must be using the API wrong". I discovered a bug in the Swift standard lib once, and it took ages before I got to the point where I decided to strip out my own code, just to make sure it was me. And it wasn't, there was genuinely something wrong in the lib that other people on SO were also able to reproduce. Good on him for finding a bug in secp256 too. When it comes to cryptography code, it can be very hard to know what the right answer is. I always find some examples on the internet and put them in a unit test to make sure I'm not misusing the API, because if you do your answer looks the same: bunch of numbers in a byte array. To know that your numbers are wrong, you need to be sure you are testing them correctly. Which you can't be if you don't know if you're using the API correctly.

sloucher 6y ago
I've worked with people for whom "compiler bug" is their first port of call...
- mark-r 6y ago
  That's a rookie mistake. After being wrong enough times, most people will catch on that the chances of a compiler bug are near enough to zero to not worry about. The last actual compiler bug I can remember was probably 30 years ago.
  - toast0 6y ago
    If we expand looking for a compiler bug to looking for a bug in dependencies, I still don't think that should be the first step of searching for a problem (unless your dependencies are that bad, which sometimes they are). However, it's not a bad thing to do. Sometimes, you will have bugs in your dependencies, so you should know how to debug them, so it's a skill you should practice. Also, any time spent debugging your dependencies is also time spent getting deep knowledge of your dependencies which is important to have. Anyway, what else are you going to do when you're stuck on a debugging task where it looks to you that the code is right, but the answer is wrong.
  - yaur 6y ago
    Back in the day Red Hat decided to ship GCC 2.96 which was unstable and not meant for general release. I've seen a handful of compiler bugs but all (or almost all) of them can be traced back to that decision, but because that happened right when I started writing software full time it took a bit before I started trusting the compiler.
  - dnautics 6y ago
    there is a telltale signature for compiler bugs: 1) your test suite works over several revisions of the compiler 2) after you upgrade, suddenly one test fails (especially if it's out of hundreds) 2a) you can isolate the minimum condition and it really leaves your head scratching 3) rewriting the code in a slightly different way makes it pass The time I found a compiler bug it was because of an optimization that missed a corner case that I just happened to be using.
    - zlynx 6y ago
      Or it was undefined behavior in your code, like depending on the evaluation order of function parameters, or one of mine, testing an array element before testing the index was within bound. Broken: table[table_i].values[j] && j<category_map_count && to_i<category_array_len; Fixed: j<category_map_count && table[table_i].values[j] && to_i<category_array_len; Optimizer: "j was used to access values array, j outside array would be undefined behavior, therefore it must have been within the array boundaries and does not need to be tested." Oh, and threading bugs where some variable that should have been mutex locked or made atomic gets moved in or out of a register depending on the phase of the moon, causing other threads to fail to notice changes to that variable...but add a debug line and it suddenly works.
      - mjg59 6y ago
        A wonderful example of this was some Linux kernel code that ended up causing a security vulnerability. It was something approximating: int foo(struct data *data) { struct member *member = &data->member; if (data == NULL) { return -EINVAL; } // Do stuff } Assigning a value to member is just a matter of taking data and adding the value of member, so won't explode if data is NULL since it's not actually dereferencing that address. But this is still in undefined behaviour territory, so gcc assumed that we must know that data could never be NULL and optimised out the check. This sort of thing is why I have definite feelings about the use of C in security sensitive contexts.
      - dnautics 6y ago
        hahah good point. The bug I discovered was in the erlang compiler, which does not have UB (in the language being compiled), and threading bugs are either rarer or obvious.
saagarjha 6y ago
> The problem with compiler and standard lib bugs is it's the last thing you suspect. Well, until you start suspecting hardware bugs.

sloucher 6y ago

I've worked with people for whom "compiler bug" is their first port of call...

mark-r 6y ago
That's a rookie mistake. After being wrong enough times, most people will catch on that the chances of a compiler bug are near enough to zero to not worry about. The last actual compiler bug I can remember was probably 30 years ago.
- toast0 6y ago
  If we expand looking for a compiler bug to looking for a bug in dependencies, I still don't think that should be the first step of searching for a problem (unless your dependencies are that bad, which sometimes they are). However, it's not a bad thing to do. Sometimes, you will have bugs in your dependencies, so you should know how to debug them, so it's a skill you should practice. Also, any time spent debugging your dependencies is also time spent getting deep knowledge of your dependencies which is important to have. Anyway, what else are you going to do when you're stuck on a debugging task where it looks to you that the code is right, but the answer is wrong.
- yaur 6y ago
  Back in the day Red Hat decided to ship GCC 2.96 which was unstable and not meant for general release. I've seen a handful of compiler bugs but all (or almost all) of them can be traced back to that decision, but because that happened right when I started writing software full time it took a bit before I started trusting the compiler.
- dnautics 6y ago
  there is a telltale signature for compiler bugs: 1) your test suite works over several revisions of the compiler 2) after you upgrade, suddenly one test fails (especially if it's out of hundreds) 2a) you can isolate the minimum condition and it really leaves your head scratching 3) rewriting the code in a slightly different way makes it pass The time I found a compiler bug it was because of an optimization that missed a corner case that I just happened to be using.
  - zlynx 6y ago
    Or it was undefined behavior in your code, like depending on the evaluation order of function parameters, or one of mine, testing an array element before testing the index was within bound. Broken: table[table_i].values[j] && j<category_map_count && to_i<category_array_len; Fixed: j<category_map_count && table[table_i].values[j] && to_i<category_array_len; Optimizer: "j was used to access values array, j outside array would be undefined behavior, therefore it must have been within the array boundaries and does not need to be tested." Oh, and threading bugs where some variable that should have been mutex locked or made atomic gets moved in or out of a register depending on the phase of the moon, causing other threads to fail to notice changes to that variable...but add a debug line and it suddenly works.
    - mjg59 6y ago
      A wonderful example of this was some Linux kernel code that ended up causing a security vulnerability. It was something approximating: int foo(struct data *data) { struct member *member = &data->member; if (data == NULL) { return -EINVAL; } // Do stuff } Assigning a value to member is just a matter of taking data and adding the value of member, so won't explode if data is NULL since it's not actually dereferencing that address. But this is still in undefined behaviour territory, so gcc assumed that we must know that data could never be NULL and optimised out the check. This sort of thing is why I have definite feelings about the use of C in security sensitive contexts.
    - dnautics 6y ago
      hahah good point. The bug I discovered was in the erlang compiler, which does not have UB (in the language being compiled), and threading bugs are either rarer or obvious.

saagarjha 6y ago

> The problem with compiler and standard lib bugs is it's the last thing you suspect. Well, until you start suspecting hardware bugs.