5 ms·

Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous a

Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome

Yetanfou 6y ago
That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus. Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
- lawlessone 6y ago
  Did you seriously just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes? Lol
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    He or she did indeed do that. I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis. I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries. My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
    - Yetanfou 6y ago
      You might want to consider reading my reply before you start spouting nonsense about right-wing forums, it might answer your question about why I chose taxation as an example of something which is seen as normal in current society but might be seen in a totally different light in some imaginary future society. It might help you understand that your rant is misplaced since my comparison only works because taxation is seen as something normal in current society. Had it been seen in the light you portray it the comparison would not hold.
      - onecommentman 6y ago
        Beware the man of one idea.
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        Dude, I'm totally with you on the broader point (that things that seem normal today will seem bizarre in the future). However, I note that I didn't refer to HN as one of these "right-wing forums", rather I was speaking about financial news, which I would naively have expected to be more anti-taxation than a forum populated by people working on the fruits of a massive forty year defence project (the Internet/WWW). Like, I personally disagree with you that taxation will be seen in those terms, but given that both of us will (probably) be dead before such a matter compiler exists, it's probably a moot point. And by the way, my comment was not a rant (I don't think I've ever ranted on HN, to be honest, as tone doesn't come through well on the internet). Maybe someday we'll meet in person, and you can actually listen to a rant of mine (normally entertaining, even if you disagree). Anyway, taxation is liberty!
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      A hypothesis on why that may be: Most people treat taxation the same way they treat automobiles or software, in that as long as the features they do want are available for a price they're willing to pay, they don't worry much about also getting the rest of the bundle which they don't want. On HN, one is more likely to find people who massage dotfiles and dependencies to get specifically what they want and not what they don't (if not necessarily more likely to find people who scratch build their car to contain only the features they wish?), and so one also is more likely to find people who wish to unbundle taxation.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    Sigh. Whatever happened to intellectual curiosity in this place... No, I did not just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes. I used taxes as an example of something which might be seen in a totally different light in some future society. I might as well have used the Indian caste system or some religious dogma but did not, instead I used something which everyone has experience with. Also, lol, seriously? Is this Hacker News or is it Slashdot?
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
"Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions – in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, or our public offices. . ." Epictetus, a Roman slave, probably crippled by his master.
- stanrivers 6y ago
  Good quote and just want to say that his philosophies are some of the most difficult sounding topics, but with he himself appearing to live a life that is true. I would also say look up James Bond Stockdale (yes that is really his name) - we was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. He refers to Epictetus and Stoic philosophy as the reason he survived with his mental health. I’ll see if I can find a link to two papers of his that are public source
- stanrivers 6y ago
  As promised: https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf He has a couple other books and collections of writings. If you are looking for real world applications of Stoicism, there isn’t much of a better person.
  - WJW 6y ago
    That was an amazing read.
    - stanrivers 6y ago
      Yes indeed - impressive man and Alzheimer’s Disease is what got him. Life is the opposite of fair more often than not it seems.
circlefavshape 6y ago
I really don't think that's what he's saying. A slave clearly does not have the means to have a virtuous and happy life, so every age is burdensome
- eternalban 6y ago
  He did say “within”. The Christian religion in Europe got its start mainly with slaves and poor people. I am not familiar with the details of early Christianity in Rome, but I suspect there are likely major Christian saints who were in fact slaves. Bilal, a slave who was one of the vanguard of Muslims, also has a pretty exalted rank. There were other slaves, mainly in the mystic track of Islam, that are also highly regarded for their “virtue” and apparent perfect peace with God (“happy”?). The Human experience is ultimately an internal, subjective affair between the human and (perceived) Reality (aka God).
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The Benedict Option[1] having been mentioned on HN, I recently read a translation of Benedict's Rule. He's pretty clear that entering by the narrow gate implies giving up not only private property, but also personal property, and even personal volition. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#chapter-7-nl-on-humility https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#c... Given that doctrine in 516, it's no wonder the early christian church appealed mainly to slaves and poor people. [1] St. Benedict is not fond of Sarabaites.

Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome

Yetanfou 6y ago

That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus. Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.

lawlessone 6y ago
Did you seriously just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes? Lol
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- disgruntledphd2 6y ago
  He or she did indeed do that. I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis. I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries. My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    You might want to consider reading my reply before you start spouting nonsense about right-wing forums, it might answer your question about why I chose taxation as an example of something which is seen as normal in current society but might be seen in a totally different light in some imaginary future society. It might help you understand that your rant is misplaced since my comparison only works because taxation is seen as something normal in current society. Had it been seen in the light you portray it the comparison would not hold.
    - onecommentman 6y ago
      Beware the man of one idea.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      Dude, I'm totally with you on the broader point (that things that seem normal today will seem bizarre in the future). However, I note that I didn't refer to HN as one of these "right-wing forums", rather I was speaking about financial news, which I would naively have expected to be more anti-taxation than a forum populated by people working on the fruits of a massive forty year defence project (the Internet/WWW). Like, I personally disagree with you that taxation will be seen in those terms, but given that both of us will (probably) be dead before such a matter compiler exists, it's probably a moot point. And by the way, my comment was not a rant (I don't think I've ever ranted on HN, to be honest, as tone doesn't come through well on the internet). Maybe someday we'll meet in person, and you can actually listen to a rant of mine (normally entertaining, even if you disagree). Anyway, taxation is liberty!
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    A hypothesis on why that may be: Most people treat taxation the same way they treat automobiles or software, in that as long as the features they do want are available for a price they're willing to pay, they don't worry much about also getting the rest of the bundle which they don't want. On HN, one is more likely to find people who massage dotfiles and dependencies to get specifically what they want and not what they don't (if not necessarily more likely to find people who scratch build their car to contain only the features they wish?), and so one also is more likely to find people who wish to unbundle taxation.
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  Sigh. Whatever happened to intellectual curiosity in this place... No, I did not just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes. I used taxes as an example of something which might be seen in a totally different light in some future society. I might as well have used the Indian caste system or some religious dogma but did not, instead I used something which everyone has experience with. Also, lol, seriously? Is this Hacker News or is it Slashdot?

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

"Some things are up to us and some are not up to us. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions – in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, or our public offices. . ." Epictetus, a Roman slave, probably crippled by his master.

stanrivers 6y ago
Good quote and just want to say that his philosophies are some of the most difficult sounding topics, but with he himself appearing to live a life that is true. I would also say look up James Bond Stockdale (yes that is really his name) - we was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. He refers to Epictetus and Stoic philosophy as the reason he survived with his mental health. I’ll see if I can find a link to two papers of his that are public source
stanrivers 6y ago
As promised: https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf https://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf He has a couple other books and collections of writings. If you are looking for real world applications of Stoicism, there isn’t much of a better person.
- WJW 6y ago
  That was an amazing read.
  - stanrivers 6y ago
    Yes indeed - impressive man and Alzheimer’s Disease is what got him. Life is the opposite of fair more often than not it seems.

circlefavshape 6y ago

I really don't think that's what he's saying. A slave clearly does not have the means to have a virtuous and happy life, so every age is burdensome

eternalban 6y ago
He did say “within”. The Christian religion in Europe got its start mainly with slaves and poor people. I am not familiar with the details of early Christianity in Rome, but I suspect there are likely major Christian saints who were in fact slaves. Bilal, a slave who was one of the vanguard of Muslims, also has a pretty exalted rank. There were other slaves, mainly in the mystic track of Islam, that are also highly regarded for their “virtue” and apparent perfect peace with God (“happy”?). The Human experience is ultimately an internal, subjective affair between the human and (perceived) Reality (aka God).
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  The Benedict Option[1] having been mentioned on HN, I recently read a translation of Benedict's Rule. He's pretty clear that entering by the narrow gate implies giving up not only private property, but also personal property, and even personal volition. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#chapter-7-nl-on-humility https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50040/50040-h/50040-h.html#c... Given that doctrine in 516, it's no wonder the early christian church appealed mainly to slaves and poor people. [1] St. Benedict is not fond of Sarabaites.