10 ms·

On Old Age

131 points by stanrivers 6y ago

throwanem 6y ago
Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
- cobbzilla 6y ago
  Maybe having his severed head and hands put on public display was some kind of karmic retribution?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
    - jfengel 6y ago
      I had heard that they drop that line when they sing it now. False rumor?
      - 082349872349872 6y ago
        Still there as of 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw
      - mikestew 6y ago
        Saw them live on their most recent tour last year, and Daltrey still sings about his demise before reaching elderly status. EDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
    - corpMaverick 6y ago
      'demanitated' that is a new word for me. Google doesn't show much. Does it mean cutting hands? from the (Spanish/Latin) manos=hands
      - 082349872349872 6y ago
        my attempt at that, yes. I hope I got the declension correct in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 but didn't bother double checking this neologism. (and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )
- siltpotato 6y ago
  How does one roast a two millennia dead politician?
- stanrivers 6y ago
  So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status. But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations. On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term? I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2]. A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for? "The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee "The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte [1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter. “Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968. [2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
    - giardini 6y ago
      082349872349872 says "A man's retch should exceed his grasp..." I saw what you did there.
- vondur 6y ago
  Cataline did have an army, and was looking to take over Rome for himself. As far as I can remember, we don’t have much information on the conspiracy.
- cowpig 6y ago
  I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context: In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation. At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage). So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour. Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion. The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial. Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions. For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him. @throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
  - stanrivers 6y ago
    I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time. And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think. @throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
    - throwanem 6y ago
vsareto 6y ago
Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus. Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
  - lawlessone 6y ago
    Did you seriously just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes? Lol
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      He or she did indeed do that. I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis. I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries. My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
      - 6y ago
kashyapc 6y ago
Cicero is one of the Roman gems that people tend to miss out on. He lived more than 2000 years ago, and written many works on Greek philosophy (including the works of Plato, Stoics, Epicureans, et al); and some of his own. He often claims that he doesn't take sides, but aims for what is most "probable". Although, in some cases he leans heavily towards Stoic ethics (despite his love for Plato's Academy). Besides the "On Old Age", some recommended English translations of his works: • On Duties — this volume is divided into three 'books'; the first 'book' covers Stoic ethics in highly compressed form. Recommended English translation: "Cicero On Duties (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)"; it also has very useful footnotes. • Tusculan Disputations — horrendous name (more correctly called: "Discussions at my villa in Tusculum"), but excellent content. It covers five themes ("disputations"); two of them written when Cicero was grieving from the sudden death of his daughter. I suggest these two translations, which cover the five themes: (a) "On Life and Death" (Oxford World's Classics); translation by John Davie; – this covers the themes 1, 2, 5, and other essays; and (b) "Cicero Emotions", by Margaret Graver – this brilliant volume covers the 4th and 5th disputations, with unparalleled commentary by Graver. Bonus: "On the Good Life" (Penguin Classics) also reads well. It has two parts from "On Duties", and a few essays by Cicero, including one on friendship.
- Jun8 6y ago
  On the fiction side, I’m currently reading and very much enjoying Imperium (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Harris_novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Harris_novel)), which is a fictional biography of Cicero.
  - kashyapc 6y ago
    Haven't heard of it; thanks for the suggestion. I'm definitely curious, after learning a decent bit about the real Cicero.
- kashyapc 6y ago
  > (b) "Cicero Emotions" [...] covers the 4th and 5th disputations [...] Typo: "4th and 5th" --> "3rd and 4th" (1st, 2nd, and 5th are covered in "On Life and Death")
jfengel 6y ago
I'm 50 now, and this is going to be hard for me because I've got little practice in dealing with disability. Even now, I'm about to run a celebratory 50k rather than my usual yearly 42k marathon. I will never again break my best time, but it's my annual proof that I can still do this thing. And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life. It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good. I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us. Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.
- lazypenguin 6y ago
  There was a post not long ago on here by a young man (32 iirc?) that had a terminal illness and was sharing his final thoughts. One idea stood out to me, he said that getting old is a privilege that not everyone has the opportunity to experience. It was a new perspective for me on aging, perhaps the sentiment can be meaningful to you as well.
  - jetrink 6y ago
    Edmond Halley (the astronomer and polymath who studied Halley's Comet) made a similar observation in 1693 after compiling the first modern mortality table. > [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive. 1. http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html
deleted 6y ago
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vibrolax 6y ago
I'm 62 now, enjoying the benefits of endurance sports and moderation in eating and drinking through most of my adult life. I know much of my relative well-being is due to genetics and luck. I know many family members, friends, and co-workers who have not been as fortunate, despite having been even more diligent in taking care of themselves. I see the frequent infirmities of my 10 year older friends who also took good care of themselves, and I know viscerally that my turn is coming. I'm happily beyond the ordeals of training and competition, and using this post-work healthy time to enjoy the wild places while I still can.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  Yes, downhill is an easier ride indeed!
ggambetta 6y ago
I thoroughly recommend the Cicero trilogy (Imperium, Lustrum, Dictator) by Robert Harris (https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Trilogy-Robert-Harris-Collection/dp/9123481587 https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Trilogy-Robert-Harris-Collecti...) for a fictionalized, but thoroughly researched, story of his life and career.
ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago
> Marcus Tullius Cicero was a Roman statesman, lawyer, scholar, and writer who tried to uphold republican principles in the final civil wars that destroyed the Roman Republic. Cicero was a man who fought against the tribunes representing the vast majority of Roman citizens, and for the power of the idle class aristocracy which did not work. He also was like an ancient embodiment of QAnon (which sees the US Democratic Party leadership as involved in a child sex conspiracy) - he accused populare aligned senators like Catiline of defiling the sacred Vestal virgins in Senate hearings.
war1025 6y ago
Kind of off topic, but is Substack the new Medium? Seeing a lot of stuff from them lately.
snvzz 6y ago
A reminder that research efforts into repairing the damage of aging (effectively undoing aging) do exist. SENS[0] is a 501(c)(3) public charity directing and funding such research. [0]: https://www.sens.org/ https://www.sens.org/
- glerk 6y ago
  Thanks. Any philosophy trying to make “old age” into something positive is a cop-out. There is nothing positive about seeing your mind and body slowly decay.
  - vharuck 6y ago
    Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst. I can't remember where I heard this or what the exact wording is. But it's one of those sayings that reminds me to be wary of philosophies with ideals that happen to match my current situation.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    Well, "old" is relative. There is a difference between being 60 and being 90 years old. Does getting wiser, calmer, and more mentally balanced constitute a mind decay? Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      1. Older people put on muscle mass slower. 2. Their bones are more fragile. 3. Working memory ("fluid intelligence") decays starting in your early 20s for most people. 4. Cancer rates. 5. Cardiovascular disease rates. 6. Overall decline of sensory organs. I really wish I could believe your post though.
    - lawlessone 6y ago
      >Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)? yeah but you die.
stakkur 6y ago
Cicero, like many other philosophers of antiquity, places ultimate value on the goal of 'a life well-lived'. In this essay, he basically says 'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand', and hedges by saying death's no big deal. Which is, of course, rubbish. That's not really how life works: rewards rarely follow your efforts to live a good life. There are often no rewards at all; a life of diligent savings can disappear in an instant, physical fitness can end with cancer, faithfulness can end in bitter disappointment. Attempting to 'optimize' your life, your finances, your career often put you in places you never wanted to be. The Buddhists come closer to what life is really about: life is not a journey, it's a dance. And you can dance anytime; old age can be joyous anytime you choose to dance--you don't need a 'good life' preceding it to make it good. Or, TL;DR: All you ever have in life is this one moment, right now.
- dint 6y ago
  Can you recommend readings about the Buddhist take on this?
  - gratalis 6y ago
    Mediums and messengers resonate differently for different folks at different times but I find these resources helpful: https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski
- l332mn 6y ago
  Buddhism is closer to Stoicism than you think. There's plenty of suttas where the Buddha explains how virtuous behavior leads to good outcomes to you even in this life (like high regard among your peers), and even material rewards (like wealth). All good outcomes ultimately boil down to virtuous behavior. This is the workings of Karma, one of the most central concepts in Buddhism. In Buddhism, rewards follow virtuous behavior by necessity, and if not in this life, then in the next. It's really odd of you saying that for Buddhism, life a "dance". This is really not what Buddhism is about. Sounds more like Nietzsche to me (an anti-buddhist). Buddhism is about virtue, the four noble truths and following the noble eight-fold path. 'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand' - this truly rings true in Buddhism, as your actions in this life determines your place of rebirth in the next.
warbaker 6y ago
I still think we should make longevity research a priority.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  To me, the only "hope" was cryonics, until I learned that they really do destroy the cell in its original form (to which it cant be restored) in the process. That, and how virtually every company loses tanks (mainly through power failure) and then says oops. Speaking of failure, either Thiel and Brin are doing just that on the topic, or they are really good at keeping secrets.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
cosmojg 6y ago
"Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst." — vharuck There's no reason we should accept the consequences of old age without a fight. Donate to SENS, or even better, dedicate your own work to extending human healthspan. See also: The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant by CGP Grey — https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
SarikayaKomzin 6y ago
I see a very common misunderstanding of Stoic thought in this thread. It doesn’t advocate passivity. As a matter of fact, the Roman Stoic school was a school of many doers and had a very cosmopolitan outlook. Stoicism simply advocates an indifference to things outside of your control. You should not be perturbed by your emotions; your perceptions and reactions are the roots of your suffering. In our reality, and Cicero’s before, old age and death are inevitable. That does not mean we cannot attempt to prevent it or research a “solution” to it. It simply means in the interim our opinion of it should not perturb your inner peace (easier said than done!). The one thing you almost always have control over (forgiving biochemistry :D) are your opinions about things. If that research was fruitful, then it _would_ be something in our control and the Stoic evaluation of it would change. Cicero‘s comments here are contextual and, I might add, beautiful.

131 points by stanrivers 6y ago

Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.

cobbzilla 6y ago
Maybe having his severed head and hands put on public display was some kind of karmic retribution?
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I had heard that they drop that line when they sing it now. False rumor?
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Still there as of 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw
    - mikestew 6y ago
      Saw them live on their most recent tour last year, and Daltrey still sings about his demise before reaching elderly status. EDIT: whoops, it was the 50th anniversary tour of 2016. They didn't do My Generation in Seattle in 2019.
  - corpMaverick 6y ago
    'demanitated' that is a new word for me. Google doesn't show much. Does it mean cutting hands? from the (Spanish/Latin) manos=hands
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      my attempt at that, yes. I hope I got the declension correct in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24628056 but didn't bother double checking this neologism. (and I admit to having a morbid, in the main, achiral habit on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24250512 )
siltpotato 6y ago
How does one roast a two millennia dead politician?
stanrivers 6y ago
So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status. But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations. On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you really think character qualities such as Cicero’s erase the positive influence he might have had despite them over the longer term? I struggle with this and it’s a genuine question. On reading his biography I was put off on the man himself more or less, while at the same time his words seem to inspire.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2]. A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for? "The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee "The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte [1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter. “Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968. [2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
  - giardini 6y ago
    082349872349872 says "A man's retch should exceed his grasp..." I saw what you did there.
vondur 6y ago
Cataline did have an army, and was looking to take over Rome for himself. As far as I can remember, we don’t have much information on the conspiracy.
cowpig 6y ago
I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context: In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation. At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage). So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour. Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion. The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial. Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions. For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him. @throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
- stanrivers 6y ago
  I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time. And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think. @throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.
  - throwanem 6y ago

vsareto 6y ago

Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome

Yetanfou 6y ago
That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus. Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
- lawlessone 6y ago
  Did you seriously just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes? Lol
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    He or she did indeed do that. I find the constant ranting about taxation here very trying, I frequent many financial and more "right-wing" forums, but HN is the only place I commonly see the taxation is theft argument made seriously on a regular basis. I'd love to know why that is, but it appears to be one of life's great mysteries. My mother's advice on this still stays with me: never look at your gross pay, and you'll be much, much happier.
    - 6y ago

kashyapc 6y ago

Cicero is one of the Roman gems that people tend to miss out on. He lived more than 2000 years ago, and written many works on Greek philosophy (including the works of Plato, Stoics, Epicureans, et al); and some of his own. He often claims that he doesn't take sides, but aims for what is most "probable". Although, in some cases he leans heavily towards Stoic ethics (despite his love for Plato's Academy). Besides the "On Old Age", some recommended English translations of his works: • On Duties — this volume is divided into three 'books'; the first 'book' covers Stoic ethics in highly compressed form. Recommended English translation: "Cicero On Duties (Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought)"; it also has very useful footnotes. • Tusculan Disputations — horrendous name (more correctly called: "Discussions at my villa in Tusculum"), but excellent content. It covers five themes ("disputations"); two of them written when Cicero was grieving from the sudden death of his daughter. I suggest these two translations, which cover the five themes: (a) "On Life and Death" (Oxford World's Classics); translation by John Davie; – this covers the themes 1, 2, 5, and other essays; and (b) "Cicero Emotions", by Margaret Graver – this brilliant volume covers the 4th and 5th disputations, with unparalleled commentary by Graver. Bonus: "On the Good Life" (Penguin Classics) also reads well. It has two parts from "On Duties", and a few essays by Cicero, including one on friendship.

Jun8 6y ago
On the fiction side, I’m currently reading and very much enjoying Imperium (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Harris_novel) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium_(Harris_novel)), which is a fictional biography of Cicero.
- kashyapc 6y ago
  Haven't heard of it; thanks for the suggestion. I'm definitely curious, after learning a decent bit about the real Cicero.
kashyapc 6y ago
> (b) "Cicero Emotions" [...] covers the 4th and 5th disputations [...] Typo: "4th and 5th" --> "3rd and 4th" (1st, 2nd, and 5th are covered in "On Life and Death")

jfengel 6y ago

I'm 50 now, and this is going to be hard for me because I've got little practice in dealing with disability. Even now, I'm about to run a celebratory 50k rather than my usual yearly 42k marathon. I will never again break my best time, but it's my annual proof that I can still do this thing. And yet it's coming. Bifocals are in my near future. I have very preliminary symptoms of prostate trouble. I'm not used to needing any kind of help for anything or having to take a pill every single day, but I need to get ready for that, because it's going to happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of my life. It could have happened at any point. I'm incredibly fortunate to be so healthy. I ate well-ish and exercised, but lots of people do more and become disabled through accident or less fortunate genetics. I think Cicero would agree that I've lived more or less nobly; I've done my best, or at least my pretty-good. I'm not afraid of it being over, but I'm trying to figure out how to deal with "the same ills would befall him and all other old men". I don't expect acquired wisdom to suffice: I honestly don't think I've gotten any spectacular insights "reason and good judgement". As for the "old men [without whom] no state would have existed at all", I really don't think posterity is going to look kindly on us. Posterity isn't really what I'm worried about. I just want to live a decent life, where "decent" has always been defined as being able to continue to do what I've always done. Doors will gradually close. There's a tee-shirt that they sell at marathons to the tune of "Some day I will not be able to do this. Today is not that day." At 50 I'm able to see the point at which today is that day. I've got a while to adjust to it, but the adjustment itself is uncomfortable, and Cicero's not really making me feel better.

lazypenguin 6y ago
There was a post not long ago on here by a young man (32 iirc?) that had a terminal illness and was sharing his final thoughts. One idea stood out to me, he said that getting old is a privilege that not everyone has the opportunity to experience. It was a new perspective for me on aging, perhaps the sentiment can be meaningful to you as well.
- jetrink 6y ago
  Edmond Halley (the astronomer and polymath who studied Halley's Comet) made a similar observation in 1693 after compiling the first modern mortality table. > [I]t may perhaps not be an unacceptable thing to infer from the same Tables, how unjustly we repine at the shortness of our Lives, and think our selves wronged if we attain not Old Age; whereas it appears hereby, that the one half of those that are born are dead in Seventeen years time, 1238 being in that time reduced to 616. So that instead of murmuring at what we call an untimely Death, we ought [...] to account it as a Blessing that we have survived, perhaps by many Years, that Period of Life, whereat the one half of the whole Race of Mankind does not arrive. 1. http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html http://www.pierre-marteau.com/editions/1693-mortality.html

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vibrolax 6y ago

I'm 62 now, enjoying the benefits of endurance sports and moderation in eating and drinking through most of my adult life. I know much of my relative well-being is due to genetics and luck. I know many family members, friends, and co-workers who have not been as fortunate, despite having been even more diligent in taking care of themselves. I see the frequent infirmities of my 10 year older friends who also took good care of themselves, and I know viscerally that my turn is coming. I'm happily beyond the ordeals of training and competition, and using this post-work healthy time to enjoy the wild places while I still can.

Koshkin 6y ago
Yes, downhill is an easier ride indeed!

ggambetta 6y ago

I thoroughly recommend the Cicero trilogy (Imperium, Lustrum, Dictator) by Robert Harris (https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Trilogy-Robert-Harris-Collection/dp/9123481587 https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Trilogy-Robert-Harris-Collecti...) for a fictionalized, but thoroughly researched, story of his life and career.

ChomskyNormal4m 6y ago

> Marcus Tullius Cicero was a Roman statesman, lawyer, scholar, and writer who tried to uphold republican principles in the final civil wars that destroyed the Roman Republic. Cicero was a man who fought against the tribunes representing the vast majority of Roman citizens, and for the power of the idle class aristocracy which did not work. He also was like an ancient embodiment of QAnon (which sees the US Democratic Party leadership as involved in a child sex conspiracy) - he accused populare aligned senators like Catiline of defiling the sacred Vestal virgins in Senate hearings.

war1025 6y ago

Kind of off topic, but is Substack the new Medium? Seeing a lot of stuff from them lately.

snvzz 6y ago

A reminder that research efforts into repairing the damage of aging (effectively undoing aging) do exist. SENS[0] is a 501(c)(3) public charity directing and funding such research. [0]: https://www.sens.org/ https://www.sens.org/

glerk 6y ago
Thanks. Any philosophy trying to make “old age” into something positive is a cop-out. There is nothing positive about seeing your mind and body slowly decay.
- vharuck 6y ago
  Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst. I can't remember where I heard this or what the exact wording is. But it's one of those sayings that reminds me to be wary of philosophies with ideals that happen to match my current situation.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  Well, "old" is relative. There is a difference between being 60 and being 90 years old. Does getting wiser, calmer, and more mentally balanced constitute a mind decay? Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)?
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    1. Older people put on muscle mass slower. 2. Their bones are more fragile. 3. Working memory ("fluid intelligence") decays starting in your early 20s for most people. 4. Cancer rates. 5. Cardiovascular disease rates. 6. Overall decline of sensory organs. I really wish I could believe your post though.
  - lawlessone 6y ago
    >Doesn't the fact that you no longer have to exert yourself as much as you did before so in fact you have a better rest and sleep better mean that your body is doing just fine (not looking "young" notwithstanding)? yeah but you die.

stakkur 6y ago

Cicero, like many other philosophers of antiquity, places ultimate value on the goal of 'a life well-lived'. In this essay, he basically says 'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand', and hedges by saying death's no big deal. Which is, of course, rubbish. That's not really how life works: rewards rarely follow your efforts to live a good life. There are often no rewards at all; a life of diligent savings can disappear in an instant, physical fitness can end with cancer, faithfulness can end in bitter disappointment. Attempting to 'optimize' your life, your finances, your career often put you in places you never wanted to be. The Buddhists come closer to what life is really about: life is not a journey, it's a dance. And you can dance anytime; old age can be joyous anytime you choose to dance--you don't need a 'good life' preceding it to make it good. Or, TL;DR: All you ever have in life is this one moment, right now.

dint 6y ago
Can you recommend readings about the Buddhist take on this?
- gratalis 6y ago
  Mediums and messengers resonate differently for different folks at different times but I find these resources helpful: https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gil+fronsdal https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://fiveinvitations.com/about-frank-ostaseski/ https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frank+ostaseski
l332mn 6y ago
Buddhism is closer to Stoicism than you think. There's plenty of suttas where the Buddha explains how virtuous behavior leads to good outcomes to you even in this life (like high regard among your peers), and even material rewards (like wealth). All good outcomes ultimately boil down to virtuous behavior. This is the workings of Karma, one of the most central concepts in Buddhism. In Buddhism, rewards follow virtuous behavior by necessity, and if not in this life, then in the next. It's really odd of you saying that for Buddhism, life a "dance". This is really not what Buddhism is about. Sounds more like Nietzsche to me (an anti-buddhist). Buddhism is about virtue, the four noble truths and following the noble eight-fold path. 'old age is fine, if you lived a good life beforehand' - this truly rings true in Buddhism, as your actions in this life determines your place of rebirth in the next.

warbaker 6y ago

I still think we should make longevity research a priority.

throw1234651234 6y ago
To me, the only "hope" was cryonics, until I learned that they really do destroy the cell in its original form (to which it cant be restored) in the process. That, and how virtually every company loses tanks (mainly through power failure) and then says oops. Speaking of failure, either Thiel and Brin are doing just that on the topic, or they are really good at keeping secrets.
- deleted 6y ago
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cosmojg 6y ago

"Those who live in the desert learn to worship thirst." — vharuck There's no reason we should accept the consequences of old age without a fight. Donate to SENS, or even better, dedicate your own work to extending human healthspan. See also: The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant by CGP Grey — https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY

SarikayaKomzin 6y ago

I see a very common misunderstanding of Stoic thought in this thread. It doesn’t advocate passivity. As a matter of fact, the Roman Stoic school was a school of many doers and had a very cosmopolitan outlook. Stoicism simply advocates an indifference to things outside of your control. You should not be perturbed by your emotions; your perceptions and reactions are the roots of your suffering. In our reality, and Cicero’s before, old age and death are inevitable. That does not mean we cannot attempt to prevent it or research a “solution” to it. It simply means in the interim our opinion of it should not perturb your inner peace (easier said than done!). The one thing you almost always have control over (forgiving biochemistry :D) are your opinions about things. If that research was fruitful, then it _would_ be something in our control and the Stoic evaluation of it would change. Cicero‘s comments here are contextual and, I might add, beautiful.