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So your solution to people spending all of their UBI money frivolously is to give them even more money? (instead of helping them spend it on, say, essentials)

stephen_g 6y ago
Various studies have shown that (perhaps surprisingly) just giving people cash works better... I can't read the article (paywall) but I expect that's the point of this trial too. Of course, it would be good to it while also offering help with education, any substance abuse issues people might have, etc. but the paternalistic kind of "can't trust people on welfare to spend their own money" view just makes things worse. We've definitely seen it in Australia, they created a cashless debit card that locks out certain types of spending and trialled it in certain areas. It's been a massive failure, people not being able to get cash out to pay rent, it doesn't work in a lot of stores, forcing people to higher priced shops that are part of the system, the card has a lot of stigma attached to it so people are ashamed to use it, social outcomes are worse, and the administrative cost per person is about half as much as the actual annual amount given in welfare (!!) but the company that runs the scheme has links to the party that is in Government and donates to politicians so they're expanding the trials of scheme...
chii 6y ago
Or, you let nature take its course. Society can only help so much - at some point, personal responsibility must step in.
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  That's just so heartless. Someone not able to prioritize housing and food over for example drugs has a very serious problem and needs help. People in that situation are still human and are not doomed. People do recover from such ailments all the time given the right structure and support. And if they can't recover they still deserve the support. That's our responsibility to each other. When "personal responsibility" means just letting people suffer and die we should leave it behind.
cortesoft 6y ago
No, I am saying the UBI payments aren’t a lump sum, they are regular payments (like every 2 weeks, for example) Someone can only blow the two weeks of money. If they still can’t survive, I am a saying we could have other programs to assist that group (it will be a much smaller population), and I am saying the help would be counseling, training, etc.

stephen_g 6y ago

Various studies have shown that (perhaps surprisingly) just giving people cash works better... I can't read the article (paywall) but I expect that's the point of this trial too. Of course, it would be good to it while also offering help with education, any substance abuse issues people might have, etc. but the paternalistic kind of "can't trust people on welfare to spend their own money" view just makes things worse. We've definitely seen it in Australia, they created a cashless debit card that locks out certain types of spending and trialled it in certain areas. It's been a massive failure, people not being able to get cash out to pay rent, it doesn't work in a lot of stores, forcing people to higher priced shops that are part of the system, the card has a lot of stigma attached to it so people are ashamed to use it, social outcomes are worse, and the administrative cost per person is about half as much as the actual annual amount given in welfare (!!) but the company that runs the scheme has links to the party that is in Government and donates to politicians so they're expanding the trials of scheme...

chii 6y ago

Or, you let nature take its course. Society can only help so much - at some point, personal responsibility must step in.

8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
That's just so heartless. Someone not able to prioritize housing and food over for example drugs has a very serious problem and needs help. People in that situation are still human and are not doomed. People do recover from such ailments all the time given the right structure and support. And if they can't recover they still deserve the support. That's our responsibility to each other. When "personal responsibility" means just letting people suffer and die we should leave it behind.

cortesoft 6y ago

No, I am saying the UBI payments aren’t a lump sum, they are regular payments (like every 2 weeks, for example) Someone can only blow the two weeks of money. If they still can’t survive, I am a saying we could have other programs to assist that group (it will be a much smaller population), and I am saying the help would be counseling, training, etc.