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>There's massive wealth in the US, and it could absolutely subsidize a different kind of education which is intended to produce an educated and informed citizen

>There's massive wealth in the US, and it could absolutely subsidize a different kind of education which is intended to produce an educated and informed citizenry. No. It couldn't. You certainly could make a 4-year degrees ostensibly an extension of high-school - where the school is fully paid for - and some countries do do that. There's still opportunity cost of not earning an income for those 4 years. There's no getting around that. >One could also imagine a hypothetical culture that does not prioritize earnings so highly, and could value other attributes of service or community more highly than earning high incomes, but let's not get too crazy here... Plenty of people do that already. In fact, most people balance out income with other life goals whether it's through career choices, deciding to stay home and raise kids, or even deciding to stay in some city because your entire family is there. So I don't know what you mean by a "hypothetical culture that does not prioritize earnings so highly", everyone already makes those considerations and though income is important, for most people it is not the most important thing. >At the highest tier, the expensive schools protect the oligarchy by keeping their children in different social spheres than the rest of the population. At the level of state schools, it's a zero sum game that people feel forced to enter because their ability to make a living is otherwise severely impaired. I don't agree with that characterization at all. For one thing, state schools provide quality education (that is as good as any high-priced ivy league school). I'm not sure what the zero sum game you're referring to is. Many people do see university as a vocational institution and what's wrong with that? Making Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything, and most people are excited about becoming teachers, or software developers, lawyers, nurses or architects.

scarmig 6y ago
> For one thing, state schools provide quality education (that is as good as any high-priced ivy league school). I'm not sure what the zero sum game you're referring to is. I know UC-Davis provides as good or better an education than Stanford (not at all sarcastic and meant in an earnest way), but it seems willfully blind to not see that they serve different social and economic roles in the American class system.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >but it seems willfully blind to not see that they serve different social and economic roles in the American class system. Sure. Just like a BMW is a status symbol in a way that a Toyota Corolla is not. The irony in this case, which also applies to state vs ivy league schools, is that a Corolla is a more reliable car (cheaper to operate and cheaper to maintain too!) - so as a car it is 'better', though just not as 'cool'. Similarly, a state school will provide you a quality education at a fraction of the cost and afford you all or most of the same kinds of opportunities as a ivy league school. So what does that mean for the 'American class system'? To me it means that we live in a a society where you can spend lots of money to acquire 'status'... or you can save that money and do your own thing.
  - closeparen 6y ago
    Run an Estimated Family Contribution sometime. Elite schools are cheaper than public, or at least similar, for kids in the middle / upper middle class range. Status is about admissions, not tuition. And sometimes about the intellectual hazing ritual (MIT, Chicago).
  - 886 6y ago
    If we are using car brands as analogies, sure, in some way a BMW is a status symbol on public road, but on race tracks, pretty much every non-SUV BMW model would excel. Look at how many non-purpose-built BMW production cars that entered the 2019 VLN race series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_VLN_Series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_VLN_Series After a car leaves the showroom, it's ultimately up to the owner to decide what to do with the car. A Corolla is great at getting groceries, but a BMW can not only take you to supermarkets but also win races on Sundays. Oh BTW, BMW has just won the 24 Hours of the Nürbergring this past Sunday.
georgeecollins 6y ago
> For one thing, state schools provide quality education Long ago I worked at a startup in Los Angeles. We had software engineers from all over, but because of the location many from UCLA or Cal Tech. We used to have a joke about hiring a "CS major from Brown". I am sure Brown is a great school. But some of the Ivy League educated people that we would interview would have a ton of confidence and polish but not necessarily better technical skills. So they felt they deserved a better job, but it wasn't clear they were equipped to do a better job.
etripe 6y ago
> I don't agree with that characterization at all. Are you denying there's a networking benefit to attending an Ivy League school? I don't have the article I was thinking of handy, but this source (0) seems to say the main advantages are networking and status. [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0811/the-value-of-an-ivy-league-education.aspx https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0811/the-value-o...

scarmig 6y ago

> For one thing, state schools provide quality education (that is as good as any high-priced ivy league school). I'm not sure what the zero sum game you're referring to is. I know UC-Davis provides as good or better an education than Stanford (not at all sarcastic and meant in an earnest way), but it seems willfully blind to not see that they serve different social and economic roles in the American class system.

macspoofing 6y ago
>but it seems willfully blind to not see that they serve different social and economic roles in the American class system. Sure. Just like a BMW is a status symbol in a way that a Toyota Corolla is not. The irony in this case, which also applies to state vs ivy league schools, is that a Corolla is a more reliable car (cheaper to operate and cheaper to maintain too!) - so as a car it is 'better', though just not as 'cool'. Similarly, a state school will provide you a quality education at a fraction of the cost and afford you all or most of the same kinds of opportunities as a ivy league school. So what does that mean for the 'American class system'? To me it means that we live in a a society where you can spend lots of money to acquire 'status'... or you can save that money and do your own thing.
- closeparen 6y ago
  Run an Estimated Family Contribution sometime. Elite schools are cheaper than public, or at least similar, for kids in the middle / upper middle class range. Status is about admissions, not tuition. And sometimes about the intellectual hazing ritual (MIT, Chicago).
- 886 6y ago
  If we are using car brands as analogies, sure, in some way a BMW is a status symbol on public road, but on race tracks, pretty much every non-SUV BMW model would excel. Look at how many non-purpose-built BMW production cars that entered the 2019 VLN race series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_VLN_Series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_VLN_Series After a car leaves the showroom, it's ultimately up to the owner to decide what to do with the car. A Corolla is great at getting groceries, but a BMW can not only take you to supermarkets but also win races on Sundays. Oh BTW, BMW has just won the 24 Hours of the Nürbergring this past Sunday.

georgeecollins 6y ago

> For one thing, state schools provide quality education Long ago I worked at a startup in Los Angeles. We had software engineers from all over, but because of the location many from UCLA or Cal Tech. We used to have a joke about hiring a "CS major from Brown". I am sure Brown is a great school. But some of the Ivy League educated people that we would interview would have a ton of confidence and polish but not necessarily better technical skills. So they felt they deserved a better job, but it wasn't clear they were equipped to do a better job.

etripe 6y ago

> I don't agree with that characterization at all. Are you denying there's a networking benefit to attending an Ivy League school? I don't have the article I was thinking of handy, but this source (0) seems to say the main advantages are networking and status. [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0811/the-value-of-an-ivy-league-education.aspx https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0811/the-value-o...