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Many European countries pay for their citizens’ university education, and from experience I can confirm that there is none of the sort of indoctrination that yo

Many European countries pay for their citizens’ university education, and from experience I can confirm that there is none of the sort of indoctrination that you are concerned about. If anything I’d say more college-educated citizens is a shield against tyranny, as it trains you to be more intellectually critical, and therefore (one would hope)c , inoculated somewhat against anti-factual biases.

tharne 6y ago
If you don't think indoctrination at universities is a serious issue, you clearly haven't seen the inside of a college classroom for quite some time.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Do you have any examples? My university education, at a state university, was paid for by my state government. I have no idea what 'indoctrination' you're talking about. The only requirements that the state government gave my university were the requirements under their land-grant status.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    Colleges in the US are very skewed ideologically, towards the far left. This has been a very clear and consistent pattern building up over a few decades, but it has become obvious only in the last 5-10 years, where that bias has been exercised much more openly to promote one worldview and suppress all others. I recommend following The College Fix (http://www.thecollegefix.com/ http://www.thecollegefix.com/) or FIRE (https://www.thefire.org/ https://www.thefire.org/) to keep up with stories on this topic. There are also other publications like the Chronicle (https://www.chronicle.com/ https://www.chronicle.com/) or Inside Higher-ed (https://www.insidehighered.com/ https://www.insidehighered.com/) that feature some of this content. Here are several examples of political bias/indoctrination/monocultures on college campuses: - College faculty have overwhelmingly singular political preferences, based on their donations: https://www.thecollegefix.com/92-percent-of-college-faculty-members-in-ohio-give-to-democrats/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/92-percent-of-college-faculty-... - Professor who exposes lack of academic rigor in grievance studies is investigated by his university (Portland State) on "ethics" grounds: https://quillette.com/2019/07/29/when-ethics-review-becomes-ideological-review-the-case-of-peter-boghossian/ https://quillette.com/2019/07/29/when-ethics-review-becomes-... - College students oppose free speech/thought/inquiry on campuses per polls: https://www.thecollegefix.com/shock-poll-most-students-oppose-allowing-campus-speakers-on-controversial-topics/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/shock-poll-most-students-oppos... - University debate society bans Richard Dawkins from speaking to prioritize the "comfort" of their students: http://www.universitytimes.ie/2020/09/the-hist-will-not-be-moving-ahead-with-richard-dawkins-address/ http://www.universitytimes.ie/2020/09/the-hist-will-not-be-m... - University uses COVID as an excuse to ban some gatherings but not others based on ideology: https://www.scribd.com/document/477474467/Southeastern-Legal-Foundation-coronavirus-letter-on-September-24-to-East-Carolina https://www.scribd.com/document/477474467/Southeastern-Legal... - University punishes student for his Instagram posts: https://reason.com/2020/07/24/fordham-university-disciplines-student-austin-tong-for-political-instagram-posts/ https://reason.com/2020/07/24/fordham-university-disciplines... - Professor threatens to fail students who write about Trump in a positive light: https://www.yaf.org/news/illinois-professor-threatens-to-fail-conservative-student-tells-class-trump-is-pathological-liar/ https://www.yaf.org/news/illinois-professor-threatens-to-fai... - Professor bans student from class because he challenged the professor's views on gender: https://www.foxnews.com/us/college-student-kicked-out-of-class-for-telling-professor-there-are-only-two-genders https://www.foxnews.com/us/college-student-kicked-out-of-cla... - College tries to censor coursework that paints negative views of Islam: https://www.thefire.org/federal-court-rejects-unsound-lawsuit-targeting-college-course-discussing-islamic-terrorism/ https://www.thefire.org/federal-court-rejects-unsound-lawsui... I could keep going but this is what I was able to find quickly through search. The reality is that there is no room for views that go against the prevailing culture on most campuses today. Those who share the prevailing views are now in the camp of using the power of their supermajority to suppress/censor/punish/ban anyone who disagrees with them. Honest debate and truth seeking cannot take place in such an environment - and if that is true, then it follows that university environments tell people WHAT to think, not HOW to think, and that constitutes indoctrination.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      The question posed is not whether the political viewpoint of academicians lean in a particular direction. The question is regards to whether government-funded schools enact the biases of the government. You evidence demonstrates that is not the case -- many of those left-leaning professors are employed by institutions funded by the governments of red states.
      - throwawaysea 6y ago
        I misunderstood. Federal and state funding do make up a significant portion of public university budgets, but post-recession, federal funding makes up a greater share than state funding (https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2015/06/federal-and-state-funding-of-higher-education https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri...). Regardless, I don't feel universities enact the biases of governments, either at the state or federal level. I think there is a general bias in the academic community that crosses those lines.
        kube-system 6y ago
        I think that bias (perceived or real) is more of a factor of US higher-education tradition of than anything else. If you get a liberal arts degree, you'll take courses focused in nuanced discussions of arts, humanities, sociology, etc... and those courses are going to be taught by people who inherently thought those topics were important enough to dedicate their lives to. Of course, it's completely reasonable for a sociology professor to think that social issues are important, just as much as we might expect a business or economics professor to believe that business or economics is important. And the things that people think are important influences a person's politics. If you look at the academic disciplines that are interest groups that conservative politics align with, you'll find conservatives there: petroleum engineering, business, marketing, religious studies, etc. The thing is, there's just not that many academic focus areas that contemporary conservative politics prioritizes in their messaging. In the end, I don't think the bias of individual professors at a university is a concern as much as institutional bias is. You can never really hire a professor who doesn't have an inherent interest in their own work. The important part is that we continue the western tradition of well-rounded study so that people are exposed to as many differing viewpoints as possible.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  It has been nearly a decade for me, but I went to a large state school for undergraduate and an even larger state school for graduate. I too have no idea what you're talking about.
- Daishiman 6y ago
  Please, examples.
- theptip 6y ago
  Rather than replying to my personal anecdote with a hostile "you don't know what you're talking about", I'm sure you'd find yourself with fewer downvotes if you instead provided your own personal anecdote, or some objective information supporting your argument.
- tharne 6y ago
  I thought that this statement was sufficiently self-evident as to not require examples, anecdotal or otherwise. The comments and downvotes would suggest otherwise, so here goes a basic one. Look at the voting registration or political donations among academics in the United States. They are skewed almost exclusively toward one party, despite the fact that the country itself is quite divided. Even arguing that it's common for a field to self-select and skew this way or that, there is an extreme political monoculture among the instructors at most U.S. universities. Now, can one _prove_ that this leads to an insular intellectual culture there that presents one side of an issue? Probably not, that's a hard thing to prove because persuasion and beliefs are a very complex and multi-faceted topic. However, common sense would dictate that yes, when all of your instructions are aligned more or less with one part of the political spectrum the end result is a lopsided presentation of things that has the effect of indoctrinating students to the dominant political view of the instructors, even if that was never the explicit intent. One example from my own experience. I had a public health professor who did a multi-part lecture on the evil of the U.S. embargo on Cuba. This took place over several classes resulting in about four hours of total lecture time, and included a fair amount of history. At no point during any lecture did she mention the Cuban missile crisis, i.e. the Cuban government allowing the Soviet Union to place nuclear weapons 90 miles off of the American coast, putting a large portion of the population at risk of nuclear destruction. Now I don't think this necessarily justifies the embargo, but to spend four days of class discussing the embargo on Cuban without a single mention the Cuban missile crisis is intellectually irresponsible at best, and a example of someone's personal bias worming its way into the instruction.
SuoDuanDao 6y ago
How does Hungary defunding gender studies fit into that worldview?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pelliphant 6y ago
  how does it not fit into that worldview?
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    "There is none of the indoctrination you speak of" Defunding an area of study because the ruling party doesn't like it sure looks like state propaganda to me. Funding coming from the government makes that easier.
    - csjispropaganda 6y ago
      Why should any Western government fund Critical Gender Studies, or any other wing of Critical Social Justice, which explicitly seeks an end to capitalism, liberalism, and all aspects of traditional Western culture, decried as sexist, racist, etc, through explicitly violent means? These programs are explicitly revolutionary. It's one thing to allow them to exist. It's another to insist they should be funded by the tax payer. Keep downvoting me, but Critical Social Justice is death. I'm voting for Trump this year because of it, and I know I'm not alone. Keep banging this drum, Leftists. You'll get your war.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        Part of a solid academic education includes entertaining viewpoints that you might not necessarily agree with. Academics is the proper place to have those discussions. If your tax dollars don't support an unfettered academic discussion, they are by definition, supporting a biased agenda.
medium_burrito 6y ago
In Europe far fewer people go to college vs the US (apart from Norway, UK, NL). Moreover, they have significantly more rigorous secondary educations, especially on the technical track.
- theptip 6y ago
  I wasn't familiar with the stats here, and this seems to be true (though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say "far fewer"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_... Though note that the gap closes when you compare "equivalent to a 4-year degree or higher" rather than "equivalent to a 2-year degree or higher". Seems that 2/3 year degrees are much more common in the US for some reason. Wonder if that's 3-year bachelor's degrees vs. the more common 4-year in many European institutions. E.g. US/UK/DE/FR, pct completed for 25-34 yr olds: 2 year: 47/49/30/45 4-year: 36/42/28/28 I'd be interested in further reading/analysis as this is a pretty rough eyeball of the tabular data on my part, and I'm not claiming to have understood this fully.

tharne 6y ago

If you don't think indoctrination at universities is a serious issue, you clearly haven't seen the inside of a college classroom for quite some time.

kube-system 6y ago
Do you have any examples? My university education, at a state university, was paid for by my state government. I have no idea what 'indoctrination' you're talking about. The only requirements that the state government gave my university were the requirements under their land-grant status.
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  Colleges in the US are very skewed ideologically, towards the far left. This has been a very clear and consistent pattern building up over a few decades, but it has become obvious only in the last 5-10 years, where that bias has been exercised much more openly to promote one worldview and suppress all others. I recommend following The College Fix (http://www.thecollegefix.com/ http://www.thecollegefix.com/) or FIRE (https://www.thefire.org/ https://www.thefire.org/) to keep up with stories on this topic. There are also other publications like the Chronicle (https://www.chronicle.com/ https://www.chronicle.com/) or Inside Higher-ed (https://www.insidehighered.com/ https://www.insidehighered.com/) that feature some of this content. Here are several examples of political bias/indoctrination/monocultures on college campuses: - College faculty have overwhelmingly singular political preferences, based on their donations: https://www.thecollegefix.com/92-percent-of-college-faculty-members-in-ohio-give-to-democrats/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/92-percent-of-college-faculty-... - Professor who exposes lack of academic rigor in grievance studies is investigated by his university (Portland State) on "ethics" grounds: https://quillette.com/2019/07/29/when-ethics-review-becomes-ideological-review-the-case-of-peter-boghossian/ https://quillette.com/2019/07/29/when-ethics-review-becomes-... - College students oppose free speech/thought/inquiry on campuses per polls: https://www.thecollegefix.com/shock-poll-most-students-oppose-allowing-campus-speakers-on-controversial-topics/ https://www.thecollegefix.com/shock-poll-most-students-oppos... - University debate society bans Richard Dawkins from speaking to prioritize the "comfort" of their students: http://www.universitytimes.ie/2020/09/the-hist-will-not-be-moving-ahead-with-richard-dawkins-address/ http://www.universitytimes.ie/2020/09/the-hist-will-not-be-m... - University uses COVID as an excuse to ban some gatherings but not others based on ideology: https://www.scribd.com/document/477474467/Southeastern-Legal-Foundation-coronavirus-letter-on-September-24-to-East-Carolina https://www.scribd.com/document/477474467/Southeastern-Legal... - University punishes student for his Instagram posts: https://reason.com/2020/07/24/fordham-university-disciplines-student-austin-tong-for-political-instagram-posts/ https://reason.com/2020/07/24/fordham-university-disciplines... - Professor threatens to fail students who write about Trump in a positive light: https://www.yaf.org/news/illinois-professor-threatens-to-fail-conservative-student-tells-class-trump-is-pathological-liar/ https://www.yaf.org/news/illinois-professor-threatens-to-fai... - Professor bans student from class because he challenged the professor's views on gender: https://www.foxnews.com/us/college-student-kicked-out-of-class-for-telling-professor-there-are-only-two-genders https://www.foxnews.com/us/college-student-kicked-out-of-cla... - College tries to censor coursework that paints negative views of Islam: https://www.thefire.org/federal-court-rejects-unsound-lawsuit-targeting-college-course-discussing-islamic-terrorism/ https://www.thefire.org/federal-court-rejects-unsound-lawsui... I could keep going but this is what I was able to find quickly through search. The reality is that there is no room for views that go against the prevailing culture on most campuses today. Those who share the prevailing views are now in the camp of using the power of their supermajority to suppress/censor/punish/ban anyone who disagrees with them. Honest debate and truth seeking cannot take place in such an environment - and if that is true, then it follows that university environments tell people WHAT to think, not HOW to think, and that constitutes indoctrination.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    The question posed is not whether the political viewpoint of academicians lean in a particular direction. The question is regards to whether government-funded schools enact the biases of the government. You evidence demonstrates that is not the case -- many of those left-leaning professors are employed by institutions funded by the governments of red states.
    - throwawaysea 6y ago
      I misunderstood. Federal and state funding do make up a significant portion of public university budgets, but post-recession, federal funding makes up a greater share than state funding (https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-briefs/2015/06/federal-and-state-funding-of-higher-education https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-bri...). Regardless, I don't feel universities enact the biases of governments, either at the state or federal level. I think there is a general bias in the academic community that crosses those lines.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        I think that bias (perceived or real) is more of a factor of US higher-education tradition of than anything else. If you get a liberal arts degree, you'll take courses focused in nuanced discussions of arts, humanities, sociology, etc... and those courses are going to be taught by people who inherently thought those topics were important enough to dedicate their lives to. Of course, it's completely reasonable for a sociology professor to think that social issues are important, just as much as we might expect a business or economics professor to believe that business or economics is important. And the things that people think are important influences a person's politics. If you look at the academic disciplines that are interest groups that conservative politics align with, you'll find conservatives there: petroleum engineering, business, marketing, religious studies, etc. The thing is, there's just not that many academic focus areas that contemporary conservative politics prioritizes in their messaging. In the end, I don't think the bias of individual professors at a university is a concern as much as institutional bias is. You can never really hire a professor who doesn't have an inherent interest in their own work. The important part is that we continue the western tradition of well-rounded study so that people are exposed to as many differing viewpoints as possible.
jcranmer 6y ago
It has been nearly a decade for me, but I went to a large state school for undergraduate and an even larger state school for graduate. I too have no idea what you're talking about.
Daishiman 6y ago
Please, examples.
theptip 6y ago
Rather than replying to my personal anecdote with a hostile "you don't know what you're talking about", I'm sure you'd find yourself with fewer downvotes if you instead provided your own personal anecdote, or some objective information supporting your argument.
tharne 6y ago
I thought that this statement was sufficiently self-evident as to not require examples, anecdotal or otherwise. The comments and downvotes would suggest otherwise, so here goes a basic one. Look at the voting registration or political donations among academics in the United States. They are skewed almost exclusively toward one party, despite the fact that the country itself is quite divided. Even arguing that it's common for a field to self-select and skew this way or that, there is an extreme political monoculture among the instructors at most U.S. universities. Now, can one _prove_ that this leads to an insular intellectual culture there that presents one side of an issue? Probably not, that's a hard thing to prove because persuasion and beliefs are a very complex and multi-faceted topic. However, common sense would dictate that yes, when all of your instructions are aligned more or less with one part of the political spectrum the end result is a lopsided presentation of things that has the effect of indoctrinating students to the dominant political view of the instructors, even if that was never the explicit intent. One example from my own experience. I had a public health professor who did a multi-part lecture on the evil of the U.S. embargo on Cuba. This took place over several classes resulting in about four hours of total lecture time, and included a fair amount of history. At no point during any lecture did she mention the Cuban missile crisis, i.e. the Cuban government allowing the Soviet Union to place nuclear weapons 90 miles off of the American coast, putting a large portion of the population at risk of nuclear destruction. Now I don't think this necessarily justifies the embargo, but to spend four days of class discussing the embargo on Cuban without a single mention the Cuban missile crisis is intellectually irresponsible at best, and a example of someone's personal bias worming its way into the instruction.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

How does Hungary defunding gender studies fit into that worldview?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pelliphant 6y ago
how does it not fit into that worldview?
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  "There is none of the indoctrination you speak of" Defunding an area of study because the ruling party doesn't like it sure looks like state propaganda to me. Funding coming from the government makes that easier.
  - csjispropaganda 6y ago
    Why should any Western government fund Critical Gender Studies, or any other wing of Critical Social Justice, which explicitly seeks an end to capitalism, liberalism, and all aspects of traditional Western culture, decried as sexist, racist, etc, through explicitly violent means? These programs are explicitly revolutionary. It's one thing to allow them to exist. It's another to insist they should be funded by the tax payer. Keep downvoting me, but Critical Social Justice is death. I'm voting for Trump this year because of it, and I know I'm not alone. Keep banging this drum, Leftists. You'll get your war.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Part of a solid academic education includes entertaining viewpoints that you might not necessarily agree with. Academics is the proper place to have those discussions. If your tax dollars don't support an unfettered academic discussion, they are by definition, supporting a biased agenda.

medium_burrito 6y ago

In Europe far fewer people go to college vs the US (apart from Norway, UK, NL). Moreover, they have significantly more rigorous secondary educations, especially on the technical track.

theptip 6y ago
I wasn't familiar with the stats here, and this seems to be true (though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say "far fewer"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_... Though note that the gap closes when you compare "equivalent to a 4-year degree or higher" rather than "equivalent to a 2-year degree or higher". Seems that 2/3 year degrees are much more common in the US for some reason. Wonder if that's 3-year bachelor's degrees vs. the more common 4-year in many European institutions. E.g. US/UK/DE/FR, pct completed for 25-34 yr olds: 2 year: 47/49/30/45 4-year: 36/42/28/28 I'd be interested in further reading/analysis as this is a pretty rough eyeball of the tabular data on my part, and I'm not claiming to have understood this fully.