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Seems to me like little more than a cheap publicity stunt for fundraising. I thought the number one rule for First Responders was not to cause injury (on the s

Seems to me like little more than a cheap publicity stunt for fundraising. I thought the number one rule for First Responders was not to cause injury (on the scene or en-route) to yourself or bystanders and not to cause further injury to the casualty. A "paramedic jet suit" just seems to be waiting for an opportunity for the paramedic to become a statistic as they fly head-first into rocky substance. Then I suppose we will be expected to all feel sorry and cry for the terrible loss of this heroic first responder ... despite the idiotic risks they took.

rtx 6y ago
Yes, today. I hope with improvement in ML it might become safer. Certainly an easier problem to solve than self driving cars.
Neil44 6y ago
Scrambling to reach someone over difficult terrain also carries risk to life. As does being unable to reach patients for 90 minutes whatever the emergency.
- Retric 6y ago
  Helicopters can reach people in this location just fine in a reasonable time, and more importantly bring people back. Limiting your comparison to a 400,000+$ experimental jet suit vs walking is deceptive. If cost that much of an issue, a paraglider costs 1/10th as much and are likely much safer to operate. Or if getting a single person on site is all you need, tiny helicopters cost as low as 50k new.
  - wil421 6y ago
    A medivac out of the Grand Canyon can cost $15k. If you could use a $400k jet pack to stabilize someone until a ground crew gets there it could be a win for everyone.
    - zizee 6y ago
      How much would it cost to helecopter a medic in to stabilize someone until a ground crew gets there?
    - Retric 6y ago
      Multi million dollar helicopters large enough to remove people from the grand cannon plus a crew cost 15k per flight. A single person helicopter’s cost as low as 50k brand new and thus less per flight than this thing.
  - itsoktocry 6y ago
    >Helicopters can reach people just fine in a reasonable time Try to imagine a world where helicopters work in some rescue situations, but not so well in others.
    - Retric 6y ago
      Clarified, as reach people in this area just fine. It might be interesting to look at this kind of jet suit for rock climbers, but this specific design doesn’t seem capable of that.
    - NoOneNew 6y ago
      Rain? High winds? I doubt a 250 pound dude in a jetpack is going to fair any better than 15,000 pound copter. Tight areas... maybe. But if the tree canopy is too tight, I don't see how a dude with a jetpack is truly going to navigate that efficiently. They'll just find a near by clearing to land and hoof over... which, the same can be said of someone in a copter. Though, the one from the copter can ruck 70+ pounds of life saving medical equipment because they're not carrying jetpack equipment. Forest Fires? I mean, what advantage do they have to smokejumpers? All that extra jetpack gear means less firefighting gear on them. Look, it's cool. It's awesome. I also want to be the first person to get a DUI in a jetpack. But for the price of a cheap helicopter and going to a scenario such as a fell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell)... a less complex helicopter that can ACTUALLY carry gear seems like the smarter investment for a search/rescue department.
      - Neil44 6y ago
        Chopper needs a very large clear not sloping area to land in, jet man not so.
        Retric 6y ago
        15,000 lb is a large helicopter which can winch people down and up. It’s the single man sub 1,500 lb helicopters that would need to land.
  - justinclift 6y ago
    There are plenty of cases here in Australia, including recently, where people have fallen off a cliff and can't be reached by rescuers for hours or perhaps until the next day. When that happens, it seems to be because the location (bottom of cliff) has extensive bush covering around it. That being said, I know nothing at all about any of the above cases. There may have been bad weather involved too, which would probably also be a problem for a jet pack solution.
    - Retric 6y ago
      The geography of the area is such that a person can walk to these people in 90 minutes. A jet suit with a slightly different design might be a meaningfully better option for rescuing people climbing el capitan or the bottom of ravines, but that’s not what is being considered here.
arethuza 6y ago
That was my first impression as well - but I suspect people probably said the same thing the first time they saw a helicopter!
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > I suspect people probably said the same thing the first time they saw a helicopter! Odds are that they would have been right - early helicopters probably weren't safe enough to use as ambulances. Well-run modern air ambulances are very safe edit: perhaps not, see replies (twin-engine helicopters with very experienced pilots) and can serve hundreds of patients per year, generally only serving very urgent cases of course. [0] My question for the jet-pack folks is why not use a helicopter? Presumably the suit is a great deal cheaper, but are there any other advantages? Curiously the article doesn't mention helicopters at all, but in the video, they did their interview in front of one. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London%27s_Air_Ambulance_Charity#Missions_and_major_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London%27s_Air_Ambulance_Chari...
  - ColinWright 6y ago
    > ... why not use a helicopter? Mentioned elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24626472 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24626472
  - nradov 6y ago
    The first really widespread use of early helicopters in any capacity was as air ambulances for the US military during the Korean War.
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      The risk profile is rather different in wartime. I presume those aircraft were a good deal less safe than modern ones, but I could be mistaken.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    A friend of mine has been an emergency doctor since 1990. A helicopter crashed with him on board once, killing the patient and causing him injuries that still can be seen after twenty years. His comment: "We are ready to take risks. That is part of our work, just like cops' or soldiers'. Some missions are extra risky - industrial accidents or anything involved drugged or drunk people. We still take that risk." IDK what the hazards of a first generation jetpack are, but odds are he would try it out eagerly.
ComodoHacker 6y ago
>a cheap publicity stunt I bet it's anything but cheap.
xoa 6y ago
>Seems to me like little more than a cheap publicity stunt for fundraising. Having volunteered as a first responder in the White Mountains of New England and with a few friends who dealt with mountain rescues, particularly winter mountain rescues, I strongly disagree with you. There are plenty of places where there are significant numbers of people hiking/climbing/skiing/snowboarding, a vertical range of <6000', horizontal distance of just a mile or two, and yet it can easily take hours from the nearest road/building to reach someone on foot (with no vehicle travel possible and even helicopters often infeasible plus based from quite a distance away). While something like this could turn that into minutes. And going by foot, as well as extracting people, isn't without significant risk too many times of the year (particularly if you're trying to move quickly). Yes, no doubt this will need significant refinement (just like helicopters). There may be much better possible designs, as well as numerous improvements to be made in terms of auto control. Heck, rather then suits maybe one of those flying platforms or a big drone someone can hang from make more sense. But the idea of getting a few rescuers with some basic kit to an accident high up on a mountain in a matter of minutes with the ability to do an aerial survey/search as they come in? There is nothing gimmicky about it. Minutes let alone hours save people. >I thought the number one rule for First Responders was not to cause injury (on the scene or en-route) to yourself or bystanders and not to cause further injury to the casualty. Wilderness rescue is inherently risky, but for that matter so is medical work in general. The goal is certainly to have a large net improvement in overall wellness, so they don't want people, particularly not First Responders which means relatively little training, rush into dangerous situations and cause more trouble for everyone. But somebody using something like this, or doing wilderness rescue at all, is going to be trained beyond that level. And intelligent weighing of risks based on level of training and equipment is core to the entire mission. >Then I suppose we will be expected to all feel sorry and cry for the terrible loss of this heroic first responder ... despite the idiotic risks they took. Get the hell over yourself. Holy crap.
- treetoppin 6y ago
  I'm curious, in your experience what is the delay between: knowing there's a need for a response - knowing where the individual is - getting someone on scene? I'm not familiar with mtn rescue so I'm not sure how long it takes vertical surface teams to get into place once the survivor has been located. I'm sure there are times where a vertical surface rescue will be required, but it takes a long time for the team to get positioned. In a situation like that, is it a significant gain to get a medic to that person even if it will be hours before they can get extracted?

rtx 6y ago

Yes, today. I hope with improvement in ML it might become safer. Certainly an easier problem to solve than self driving cars.

Neil44 6y ago

Scrambling to reach someone over difficult terrain also carries risk to life. As does being unable to reach patients for 90 minutes whatever the emergency.

Retric 6y ago
Helicopters can reach people in this location just fine in a reasonable time, and more importantly bring people back. Limiting your comparison to a 400,000+$ experimental jet suit vs walking is deceptive. If cost that much of an issue, a paraglider costs 1/10th as much and are likely much safer to operate. Or if getting a single person on site is all you need, tiny helicopters cost as low as 50k new.
- wil421 6y ago
  A medivac out of the Grand Canyon can cost $15k. If you could use a $400k jet pack to stabilize someone until a ground crew gets there it could be a win for everyone.
  - zizee 6y ago
    How much would it cost to helecopter a medic in to stabilize someone until a ground crew gets there?
  - Retric 6y ago
    Multi million dollar helicopters large enough to remove people from the grand cannon plus a crew cost 15k per flight. A single person helicopter’s cost as low as 50k brand new and thus less per flight than this thing.
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  >Helicopters can reach people just fine in a reasonable time Try to imagine a world where helicopters work in some rescue situations, but not so well in others.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Clarified, as reach people in this area just fine. It might be interesting to look at this kind of jet suit for rock climbers, but this specific design doesn’t seem capable of that.
  - NoOneNew 6y ago
    Rain? High winds? I doubt a 250 pound dude in a jetpack is going to fair any better than 15,000 pound copter. Tight areas... maybe. But if the tree canopy is too tight, I don't see how a dude with a jetpack is truly going to navigate that efficiently. They'll just find a near by clearing to land and hoof over... which, the same can be said of someone in a copter. Though, the one from the copter can ruck 70+ pounds of life saving medical equipment because they're not carrying jetpack equipment. Forest Fires? I mean, what advantage do they have to smokejumpers? All that extra jetpack gear means less firefighting gear on them. Look, it's cool. It's awesome. I also want to be the first person to get a DUI in a jetpack. But for the price of a cheap helicopter and going to a scenario such as a fell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fell)... a less complex helicopter that can ACTUALLY carry gear seems like the smarter investment for a search/rescue department.
    - Neil44 6y ago
      Chopper needs a very large clear not sloping area to land in, jet man not so.
      - Retric 6y ago
        15,000 lb is a large helicopter which can winch people down and up. It’s the single man sub 1,500 lb helicopters that would need to land.
- justinclift 6y ago
  There are plenty of cases here in Australia, including recently, where people have fallen off a cliff and can't be reached by rescuers for hours or perhaps until the next day. When that happens, it seems to be because the location (bottom of cliff) has extensive bush covering around it. That being said, I know nothing at all about any of the above cases. There may have been bad weather involved too, which would probably also be a problem for a jet pack solution.
  - Retric 6y ago
    The geography of the area is such that a person can walk to these people in 90 minutes. A jet suit with a slightly different design might be a meaningfully better option for rescuing people climbing el capitan or the bottom of ravines, but that’s not what is being considered here.

arethuza 6y ago

That was my first impression as well - but I suspect people probably said the same thing the first time they saw a helicopter!

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> I suspect people probably said the same thing the first time they saw a helicopter! Odds are that they would have been right - early helicopters probably weren't safe enough to use as ambulances. Well-run modern air ambulances are very safe edit: perhaps not, see replies (twin-engine helicopters with very experienced pilots) and can serve hundreds of patients per year, generally only serving very urgent cases of course. [0] My question for the jet-pack folks is why not use a helicopter? Presumably the suit is a great deal cheaper, but are there any other advantages? Curiously the article doesn't mention helicopters at all, but in the video, they did their interview in front of one. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London%27s_Air_Ambulance_Charity#Missions_and_major_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London%27s_Air_Ambulance_Chari...
- ColinWright 6y ago
  > ... why not use a helicopter? Mentioned elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24626472 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24626472
- nradov 6y ago
  The first really widespread use of early helicopters in any capacity was as air ambulances for the US military during the Korean War.
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    The risk profile is rather different in wartime. I presume those aircraft were a good deal less safe than modern ones, but I could be mistaken.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  A friend of mine has been an emergency doctor since 1990. A helicopter crashed with him on board once, killing the patient and causing him injuries that still can be seen after twenty years. His comment: "We are ready to take risks. That is part of our work, just like cops' or soldiers'. Some missions are extra risky - industrial accidents or anything involved drugged or drunk people. We still take that risk." IDK what the hazards of a first generation jetpack are, but odds are he would try it out eagerly.

ComodoHacker 6y ago

>a cheap publicity stunt I bet it's anything but cheap.

xoa 6y ago

>Seems to me like little more than a cheap publicity stunt for fundraising. Having volunteered as a first responder in the White Mountains of New England and with a few friends who dealt with mountain rescues, particularly winter mountain rescues, I strongly disagree with you. There are plenty of places where there are significant numbers of people hiking/climbing/skiing/snowboarding, a vertical range of <6000', horizontal distance of just a mile or two, and yet it can easily take hours from the nearest road/building to reach someone on foot (with no vehicle travel possible and even helicopters often infeasible plus based from quite a distance away). While something like this could turn that into minutes. And going by foot, as well as extracting people, isn't without significant risk too many times of the year (particularly if you're trying to move quickly). Yes, no doubt this will need significant refinement (just like helicopters). There may be much better possible designs, as well as numerous improvements to be made in terms of auto control. Heck, rather then suits maybe one of those flying platforms or a big drone someone can hang from make more sense. But the idea of getting a few rescuers with some basic kit to an accident high up on a mountain in a matter of minutes with the ability to do an aerial survey/search as they come in? There is nothing gimmicky about it. Minutes let alone hours save people. >I thought the number one rule for First Responders was not to cause injury (on the scene or en-route) to yourself or bystanders and not to cause further injury to the casualty. Wilderness rescue is inherently risky, but for that matter so is medical work in general. The goal is certainly to have a large net improvement in overall wellness, so they don't want people, particularly not First Responders which means relatively little training, rush into dangerous situations and cause more trouble for everyone. But somebody using something like this, or doing wilderness rescue at all, is going to be trained beyond that level. And intelligent weighing of risks based on level of training and equipment is core to the entire mission. >Then I suppose we will be expected to all feel sorry and cry for the terrible loss of this heroic first responder ... despite the idiotic risks they took. Get the hell over yourself. Holy crap.

treetoppin 6y ago
I'm curious, in your experience what is the delay between: knowing there's a need for a response - knowing where the individual is - getting someone on scene? I'm not familiar with mtn rescue so I'm not sure how long it takes vertical surface teams to get into place once the survivor has been located. I'm sure there are times where a vertical surface rescue will be required, but it takes a long time for the team to get positioned. In a situation like that, is it a significant gain to get a medic to that person even if it will be hours before they can get extracted?