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Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems lik

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? It seems a ultra low effectiveness medium for controlled messaging.

dfischer 6y ago
TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation. Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target. Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.
- jhardy54 6y ago
  > TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
      - dfischer 6y ago
        It’s not mutually exclusive. Facebook is complicit. TikTok however is specifically a unique entity on its own. The demographics that use it are of critical interest to persuade additionally the data is directly at risk of being used as information warfare on increasingly elevated state cyber warfare tactics. Follow the trail of information. Look into what’s going in across the stack hardware to software to networks. There’s a massive shift the past couple years.
        bkor 6y ago
        Facebook has been used for misinformation for a significant longer amount of time. Usually I get annoyed when people say something like "but what about X", but in this case it's a case of one company often being proven to manipulate, distort, etc (Facebook) vs a possibility that another company might do that.
        dfischer 6y ago
        It’s not a possibility that another company is doing it, it’s about the state actors involved in doing it and otherwise unknown parties. In the end it’s no specific company that is responsible as the aggregate whole of all data available and the mechanisms to algorithmically control content is the sophistication of manipulation going on today.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    My optimistic side says that if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful, CIA (or your favourite "They") would have weaponised them back in the 1960s[1]. My pessimistic side says they probably are, and maybe they even did. https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-of-time-the-importance-of-time-length-in-tv-advertising/ https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-... [1] CIA didn't exist before 1947, so it would have to have been a different they for late 1920s, or even a different medium for "Remember the Maine!" Bonus blog: https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-advertising-part-1 https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-adverti...
    - dfischer 6y ago
      Most definitely cia has a history with manipulating information. But at the point of information, how do you know what to even trust at any level? Evidence can be provided for anything. Information and disinformation all at the same time. This is only increasing - how will anyone be able to sort themselves out? I’m not so sure it’s possible. https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI Also 60 seconds of video is a ton of information. And it’s not just one video at a time. The total session aggregated per user per active user is way higher than that. These are behaviors where users use the app all day. Their entire worldview is based on the content within the social network experience.
      - 082349872349872 6y ago
        thoughts on sorting oneself out, albeit with difficulty: seek variety of manipulated information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 systematically analyse received information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 analyse especially source levels: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 and remember we may have evolved big energy-guzzling brains in order to see through primate politics.
        6y ago
- amake 6y ago
  > TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Unlike the Boomers, who most definitely haven't been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda on Facebook and Fox News?
  - dfischer 6y ago
    That’s already been known and within US soil. Now it’s the younger generation - it doesn’t make it mutually exclusive. If anything it shows the complete onslaught on all ends to undermine the stability of a nation in a way that’s never been possible before due to mass media and the internet. Broadcast is entirely unidirectional. You’re absolutely correct that brainwashing happens on those mediums. It’s entirely interesting on one hand and entirely alarming on another. At this rate I’m not sure what the world at large can do given the technology out there to manipulate the populace. It leads to some very critical questions on how to exist.
- altacc 6y ago
  > TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. You don't have to look far to know this hypothesis won't stand up to any scrutiny. Not only are TikTok users typically in the age range less likely to vote, but everyone is susceptible to propaganda and lies. There is a lot of US produced propaganda out there aimed at the older generations which is being lapped up by a public thirsty for negative partisanship and divisive rhetoric. If the Tiktok generation has been undermined, then it's by the older generations who benefited from more favorable situations, grabbed the wealth and power for themselves, pulled the ladder up and now refuse to see how any of this is an issue and will fight to maintain an unequal situation as long as it favors them.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Not voting is a behavior pattern. Any behavior can be influenced by information propagation. The behavior of not voting has its own second order of effects. Also rooted in not believing in the structure one is participating in. But that’s less my point, it’s more about the methods and attack vectors being an increased surface area now than ever before. See here on why more so with TikTok generation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management “Chinese military scholars argue that their nation has a long history of conducting "psychological operations", a phrase that connotes important aspects of strategic deception and, to a certain degree, what the US Department of Defense portrays as perception management. For example, several articles published by the PLA's Academy of Military Science (AMS) journal Zhongguo Junshi Kexue, examine psychological warfare and psychological operations mainly as a deception-oriented function of military strategy.” China are extremely skilled at psyops.
- Scapeghost 6y ago
  Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Indeed. Again there’s no question the attack vectors - however dismissing it as “kettle” or “them too” solves nothing and contributes to making the situation worse. Every comment I make is being downvoted yet there’s a critical point that’s either entirely dismissed as insignificant because others are doing it too or divorced from the ability to reason about information warfare and it’s implications. Oh well at least I tried.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      That’s not really what’s happening though. People are reading your premise that tiktok is a viable mechanism for influencing behaviour of its users, they are then pointing out far bigger examples of the ability you cite (Facebook, Google, Twitter) to which you say that’s different and we need to focus on tiktok because good reasons and not because china but i cant elaborate on good reasons. At which point you’re being disingenuous.
      - dfischer 6y ago
        I never said to focus on TikTok. I’m saying they aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    And particularly Instagram, Snapchat for the younger generation.
    - dfischer 6y ago
      And add every single site that has user generated content. If an algorithm can influence the behavior of the users, it’s being done at a state level.
- tester34 6y ago
  What makes you think that zoomers are more likely to be influenced by social media than boomers or millenials?
  - dfischer 6y ago
    I don’t think they’re any less or any more other than the potential net vectors exposed. A boomer typically has traditional media as a source of information which shapes their world view. These channels have their own programming and narratives. The zoomers are entirely on internet platforms which has a higher degree of manipulation. Every single person is mined against. Every single person gets optimized against. There’s more room for coercion based on the algorithmic use targeting demographics, and with the capability of individual optimization with machine learning tech. If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.
    - tester34 6y ago
      >If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing. It scares me everytime I think about it how little $$ you need in order to reach e.g Reddit's front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg
      - dfischer 6y ago
        Precisely. It’s incredibly alarming what one can do with very little resources. It’s downright horrifying or exciting when realizing what one can do with more than average resources. In a way, that’s why I think the battleground is more “weird” than ever. It’s not just state actors, it’s factions of organized and convergent groups using memetic warfare. Some groups naturally converge towards each other. Take the anon’s, and various sects then overlay it with state actor and your smaller groups. Weird nameless stuff of massive influence and self organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management
- danmg 6y ago
  The Fox News generation seems the most malleable to propaganda.
donkeyd 6y ago
Theoretically, CCP could abuse location services to track movements of military personnel and civilians in a war. Since FB isn't Chinese, that is less of an issue for large scale surveilance. Also, if the Chinese had a zero day that they could exploit by pushing a malicious TikTok update, they could get root access to these phones and use them for surveillance on a large scale. Sure, this is all hypothetical, but it's not unthinkable in an all out cyber war. Nations are stockpiling zero days and other hacks just to have an advantage when it becomes necessary. Note: I don't have TikTok, so no clue if they actually use location services, but every app seems to do that nowadays, so I just assumed it does.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  Ban all Chinese apps?
  - LadyCailin 6y ago
    Yeah. I don’t buy this argument until they ban all Chinese apps. As far as I can tell, it’s just a way to cut off younger voter’s access to information that is critical of Trump. And that’s a generous reading.
    - benjamoon 6y ago
      There’s an absolute ton of pro Trump material on TikTok made by young people.
      - kenjackson 6y ago
        A LOT more that is anti-Trump I suspect.
        kevinventullo 6y ago
        I use both Reddit and TikTok, and I would say Reddit is far more overtly liberal leaning by default, with pockets of right leaning folks. Reddit or Facebook are also much more natural meeting places which can foster discussion or even event planning. In contrast, comment threads on TikTok are kind of a mess; it's more of a broadcast platform.
SifJar 6y ago
Facebook allows anyone to purchase targeted messaging, but it's an American run company which likely makes the difference - there is likely a perception (real or imagined) that FB will be willing & able to combat "enemy" messaging. In regards to the value of 60 second funny videos to share messaging, part of the strength here may be exactly because it's a platform for short, funny videos; as long as the ideas being communicated can be slipped into a funny video in a subtle way, people are hearing them without even realising it. (e.g. perhaps videos making fun of American leaders, undermining their authority etc. - certainly not hard to do with certain leaders...)
- eru 6y ago
  Sounds like your typical argument for a free press would apply here just as well? A free press also includes a free press for people you disagree with.
  - username90 6y ago
    China controlling your communication isn't free. Free press includes freedom from pressure from other governments.
    - eru 6y ago
      Well, free press also means that you shouldn't be forced to consume media you don't like. But media you don't like being produced at all is perfectly compatible with a free press, including dislike because of influences and pressures you disapprove of. (In some sense, it would be extremely surprising if you liked all the media being produced.)
- rsha256 6y ago
  exactly people don't realize the subtle implications from watching tiktoks — they do impact you and your thoughts and in any case China censors so much
- hyperdimension 6y ago
  That reminds me of 'Yvan Eht Nioj,' from the Simpsons. It doesn't even have to be all that subtle! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQQK8r7mI4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQQK8r7mI4
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Kiro 6y ago
> a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video Politics is huge on TikTok.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
> with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? the same can be said for imgur but it's very effective in presenting political content to a young audience which is as you say scrolling past. what makes it to the top is self regulating (by user upvotes) and still imgur has plenty of political content on the front page (twitter or reddit cut-outs with links to both OC and "deeper reading"). So I can't see why the same wouldn't work on TikTok (oddly one of the videos where a make-up tutorial was shared contained anti-Chinese content and criticism of how Uyghurs are treated - which went viral. Not sure if this is proof but it is certainly evidence that this isn't impossible).
miki123211 6y ago
>Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. TikTok relies much more heavily on an algorithm than FB, though. FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends, while TikTok pushes anything that might interest you. They can subtly influence you. If they hate Trump, the can push joke videos about tax returns and his sexual assault allegations or something. In other words, try creating an unconscious association between Trump and evil in your brain. Another issue is that, if TikTok becomes crucial for advertisers, we give China power over these companies. Hiring people who have publicly expressed anti-chinese opinions or donating to the wrong politicians might suddenly ban you from the platform.
- gabaix 6y ago
  The advertising angle is very good one. US media and sports companies are already self censoring because of the economic retribution they might face in mainland.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends This used to be the case, but is very very far from the case now in my experience. Most facebook newsfeed content is algorithmically driven too (to the point that it's mostly put me off using facebook and pushed me to instagram where most content is still from people I explicitly chose to follow).
- tester34 6y ago
  >TikTok relies much more heavily on an algorithm than FB, though. FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends, while TikTok pushes anything that might interest you. They can subtly influence you. I think it's very naive to think that FB is not doing that.
- jonathanstrange 6y ago
  > In other words, try creating an unconscious association between Trump and evil in your brain. So...like following Trump's tweets. That's indeed a great danger.
thesz 6y ago
Actually, it is not. I am not R or D, I am Russian programmer who lives in Russia and likes to read. One of things I've read already long ago is about priming: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ Showing one different pictures change walking speed, at the very least. And effects can last as long as year: http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24-96.pdf http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24... TikTok, being a massive analytical (see other discussions at HN) and priming platform, allows for quite interesting effects on the humans to be discovered and/or tested. Facebook is primarily text which is low bandwidth and it goes through higher thinking. TikTok is high bandwidth from the start and is primarily analyzed using much older parts of brain. I do not like Facebook (don't have account) and I vehemently hate TikTok.
- kawsper 6y ago
  > Facebook is primarily text which is low bandwidth and it goes through higher thinking. Today Facebook is mostly images, livestreams and videos.
  - thesz 6y ago
    My wife uses Facebook and I beg to disagree with you.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      Does your wife heavily use tiktok? It's possible that different cohorts of Facebook users experience the product in different ways. I can imagine that those drawn to Tiktok also make use of insta stories or fb stories (short videos) etc.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      I use Facebook: my experience is it's probably 50-50. Which means far more content (by duration or bandwidth) is images/video. I rarely look at the videos. As an erstwhile small business owner it became very clear that business page posts with images always get more views so all informational posts always have images if you want to improve your engagement scores. Most friend posts that are popular enough to spread to me include a gallery or shared video. People make text comments on news stories and link a news website, which then pulls in an image/video. So often the headlines/images are misleading - as one finds on HN too. I used TikTok for 6 months or so, even posted a video. To me the only content was ever goofy dances, magic tricks, acrobatics and 'pranks'. No more harmful than any other human-targeting Skinner Box.

dfischer 6y ago

TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation. Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target. Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.

jhardy54 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
    - dfischer 6y ago
      It’s not mutually exclusive. Facebook is complicit. TikTok however is specifically a unique entity on its own. The demographics that use it are of critical interest to persuade additionally the data is directly at risk of being used as information warfare on increasingly elevated state cyber warfare tactics. Follow the trail of information. Look into what’s going in across the stack hardware to software to networks. There’s a massive shift the past couple years.
      - bkor 6y ago
        Facebook has been used for misinformation for a significant longer amount of time. Usually I get annoyed when people say something like "but what about X", but in this case it's a case of one company often being proven to manipulate, distort, etc (Facebook) vs a possibility that another company might do that.
        dfischer 6y ago
        It’s not a possibility that another company is doing it, it’s about the state actors involved in doing it and otherwise unknown parties. In the end it’s no specific company that is responsible as the aggregate whole of all data available and the mechanisms to algorithmically control content is the sophistication of manipulation going on today.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  My optimistic side says that if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful, CIA (or your favourite "They") would have weaponised them back in the 1960s[1]. My pessimistic side says they probably are, and maybe they even did. https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-of-time-the-importance-of-time-length-in-tv-advertising/ https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-... [1] CIA didn't exist before 1947, so it would have to have been a different they for late 1920s, or even a different medium for "Remember the Maine!" Bonus blog: https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-advertising-part-1 https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-adverti...
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Most definitely cia has a history with manipulating information. But at the point of information, how do you know what to even trust at any level? Evidence can be provided for anything. Information and disinformation all at the same time. This is only increasing - how will anyone be able to sort themselves out? I’m not so sure it’s possible. https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI Also 60 seconds of video is a ton of information. And it’s not just one video at a time. The total session aggregated per user per active user is way higher than that. These are behaviors where users use the app all day. Their entire worldview is based on the content within the social network experience.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      thoughts on sorting oneself out, albeit with difficulty: seek variety of manipulated information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424 systematically analyse received information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577 analyse especially source levels: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177 compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 and remember we may have evolved big energy-guzzling brains in order to see through primate politics.
      - 6y ago
amake 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Unlike the Boomers, who most definitely haven't been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda on Facebook and Fox News?
- dfischer 6y ago
  That’s already been known and within US soil. Now it’s the younger generation - it doesn’t make it mutually exclusive. If anything it shows the complete onslaught on all ends to undermine the stability of a nation in a way that’s never been possible before due to mass media and the internet. Broadcast is entirely unidirectional. You’re absolutely correct that brainwashing happens on those mediums. It’s entirely interesting on one hand and entirely alarming on another. At this rate I’m not sure what the world at large can do given the technology out there to manipulate the populace. It leads to some very critical questions on how to exist.
altacc 6y ago
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. You don't have to look far to know this hypothesis won't stand up to any scrutiny. Not only are TikTok users typically in the age range less likely to vote, but everyone is susceptible to propaganda and lies. There is a lot of US produced propaganda out there aimed at the older generations which is being lapped up by a public thirsty for negative partisanship and divisive rhetoric. If the Tiktok generation has been undermined, then it's by the older generations who benefited from more favorable situations, grabbed the wealth and power for themselves, pulled the ladder up and now refuse to see how any of this is an issue and will fight to maintain an unequal situation as long as it favors them.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Not voting is a behavior pattern. Any behavior can be influenced by information propagation. The behavior of not voting has its own second order of effects. Also rooted in not believing in the structure one is participating in. But that’s less my point, it’s more about the methods and attack vectors being an increased surface area now than ever before. See here on why more so with TikTok generation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815 Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management “Chinese military scholars argue that their nation has a long history of conducting "psychological operations", a phrase that connotes important aspects of strategic deception and, to a certain degree, what the US Department of Defense portrays as perception management. For example, several articles published by the PLA's Academy of Military Science (AMS) journal Zhongguo Junshi Kexue, examine psychological warfare and psychological operations mainly as a deception-oriented function of military strategy.” China are extremely skilled at psyops.
Scapeghost 6y ago
Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.
- dfischer 6y ago
  Indeed. Again there’s no question the attack vectors - however dismissing it as “kettle” or “them too” solves nothing and contributes to making the situation worse. Every comment I make is being downvoted yet there’s a critical point that’s either entirely dismissed as insignificant because others are doing it too or divorced from the ability to reason about information warfare and it’s implications. Oh well at least I tried.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    That’s not really what’s happening though. People are reading your premise that tiktok is a viable mechanism for influencing behaviour of its users, they are then pointing out far bigger examples of the ability you cite (Facebook, Google, Twitter) to which you say that’s different and we need to focus on tiktok because good reasons and not because china but i cant elaborate on good reasons. At which point you’re being disingenuous.
    - dfischer 6y ago
      I never said to focus on TikTok. I’m saying they aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  And particularly Instagram, Snapchat for the younger generation.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    And add every single site that has user generated content. If an algorithm can influence the behavior of the users, it’s being done at a state level.
tester34 6y ago
What makes you think that zoomers are more likely to be influenced by social media than boomers or millenials?
- dfischer 6y ago
  I don’t think they’re any less or any more other than the potential net vectors exposed. A boomer typically has traditional media as a source of information which shapes their world view. These channels have their own programming and narratives. The zoomers are entirely on internet platforms which has a higher degree of manipulation. Every single person is mined against. Every single person gets optimized against. There’s more room for coercion based on the algorithmic use targeting demographics, and with the capability of individual optimization with machine learning tech. If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.
  - tester34 6y ago
    >If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing. It scares me everytime I think about it how little $$ you need in order to reach e.g Reddit's front page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg
    - dfischer 6y ago
      Precisely. It’s incredibly alarming what one can do with very little resources. It’s downright horrifying or exciting when realizing what one can do with more than average resources. In a way, that’s why I think the battleground is more “weird” than ever. It’s not just state actors, it’s factions of organized and convergent groups using memetic warfare. Some groups naturally converge towards each other. Take the anon’s, and various sects then overlay it with state actor and your smaller groups. Weird nameless stuff of massive influence and self organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management
danmg 6y ago
The Fox News generation seems the most malleable to propaganda.

donkeyd 6y ago

Theoretically, CCP could abuse location services to track movements of military personnel and civilians in a war. Since FB isn't Chinese, that is less of an issue for large scale surveilance. Also, if the Chinese had a zero day that they could exploit by pushing a malicious TikTok update, they could get root access to these phones and use them for surveillance on a large scale. Sure, this is all hypothetical, but it's not unthinkable in an all out cyber war. Nations are stockpiling zero days and other hacks just to have an advantage when it becomes necessary. Note: I don't have TikTok, so no clue if they actually use location services, but every app seems to do that nowadays, so I just assumed it does.

searchableguy 6y ago
Ban all Chinese apps?
- LadyCailin 6y ago
  Yeah. I don’t buy this argument until they ban all Chinese apps. As far as I can tell, it’s just a way to cut off younger voter’s access to information that is critical of Trump. And that’s a generous reading.
  - benjamoon 6y ago
    There’s an absolute ton of pro Trump material on TikTok made by young people.
    - kenjackson 6y ago
      A LOT more that is anti-Trump I suspect.
      - kevinventullo 6y ago
        I use both Reddit and TikTok, and I would say Reddit is far more overtly liberal leaning by default, with pockets of right leaning folks. Reddit or Facebook are also much more natural meeting places which can foster discussion or even event planning. In contrast, comment threads on TikTok are kind of a mess; it's more of a broadcast platform.

SifJar 6y ago

Facebook allows anyone to purchase targeted messaging, but it's an American run company which likely makes the difference - there is likely a perception (real or imagined) that FB will be willing & able to combat "enemy" messaging. In regards to the value of 60 second funny videos to share messaging, part of the strength here may be exactly because it's a platform for short, funny videos; as long as the ideas being communicated can be slipped into a funny video in a subtle way, people are hearing them without even realising it. (e.g. perhaps videos making fun of American leaders, undermining their authority etc. - certainly not hard to do with certain leaders...)

eru 6y ago
Sounds like your typical argument for a free press would apply here just as well? A free press also includes a free press for people you disagree with.
- username90 6y ago
  China controlling your communication isn't free. Free press includes freedom from pressure from other governments.
  - eru 6y ago
    Well, free press also means that you shouldn't be forced to consume media you don't like. But media you don't like being produced at all is perfectly compatible with a free press, including dislike because of influences and pressures you disapprove of. (In some sense, it would be extremely surprising if you liked all the media being produced.)
rsha256 6y ago
exactly people don't realize the subtle implications from watching tiktoks — they do impact you and your thoughts and in any case China censors so much
hyperdimension 6y ago
That reminds me of 'Yvan Eht Nioj,' from the Simpsons. It doesn't even have to be all that subtle! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQQK8r7mI4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoQQK8r7mI4

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Kiro 6y ago

> a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video Politics is huge on TikTok.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

> with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? the same can be said for imgur but it's very effective in presenting political content to a young audience which is as you say scrolling past. what makes it to the top is self regulating (by user upvotes) and still imgur has plenty of political content on the front page (twitter or reddit cut-outs with links to both OC and "deeper reading"). So I can't see why the same wouldn't work on TikTok (oddly one of the videos where a make-up tutorial was shared contained anti-Chinese content and criticism of how Uyghurs are treated - which went viral. Not sure if this is proof but it is certainly evidence that this isn't impossible).

miki123211 6y ago

>Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. TikTok relies much more heavily on an algorithm than FB, though. FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends, while TikTok pushes anything that might interest you. They can subtly influence you. If they hate Trump, the can push joke videos about tax returns and his sexual assault allegations or something. In other words, try creating an unconscious association between Trump and evil in your brain. Another issue is that, if TikTok becomes crucial for advertisers, we give China power over these companies. Hiring people who have publicly expressed anti-chinese opinions or donating to the wrong politicians might suddenly ban you from the platform.

gabaix 6y ago
The advertising angle is very good one. US media and sports companies are already self censoring because of the economic retribution they might face in mainland.
nicoburns 6y ago
> FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends This used to be the case, but is very very far from the case now in my experience. Most facebook newsfeed content is algorithmically driven too (to the point that it's mostly put me off using facebook and pushed me to instagram where most content is still from people I explicitly chose to follow).
tester34 6y ago
>TikTok relies much more heavily on an algorithm than FB, though. FB primarily pushes content posted by your friends, while TikTok pushes anything that might interest you. They can subtly influence you. I think it's very naive to think that FB is not doing that.
jonathanstrange 6y ago
> In other words, try creating an unconscious association between Trump and evil in your brain. So...like following Trump's tweets. That's indeed a great danger.

thesz 6y ago

Actually, it is not. I am not R or D, I am Russian programmer who lives in Russia and likes to read. One of things I've read already long ago is about priming: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ Showing one different pictures change walking speed, at the very least. And effects can last as long as year: http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24-96.pdf http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24... TikTok, being a massive analytical (see other discussions at HN) and priming platform, allows for quite interesting effects on the humans to be discovered and/or tested. Facebook is primarily text which is low bandwidth and it goes through higher thinking. TikTok is high bandwidth from the start and is primarily analyzed using much older parts of brain. I do not like Facebook (don't have account) and I vehemently hate TikTok.

kawsper 6y ago
> Facebook is primarily text which is low bandwidth and it goes through higher thinking. Today Facebook is mostly images, livestreams and videos.
- thesz 6y ago
  My wife uses Facebook and I beg to disagree with you.
  - CraigJPerry 6y ago
    Does your wife heavily use tiktok? It's possible that different cohorts of Facebook users experience the product in different ways. I can imagine that those drawn to Tiktok also make use of insta stories or fb stories (short videos) etc.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    I use Facebook: my experience is it's probably 50-50. Which means far more content (by duration or bandwidth) is images/video. I rarely look at the videos. As an erstwhile small business owner it became very clear that business page posts with images always get more views so all informational posts always have images if you want to improve your engagement scores. Most friend posts that are popular enough to spread to me include a gallery or shared video. People make text comments on news stories and link a news website, which then pulls in an image/video. So often the headlines/images are misleading - as one finds on HN too. I used TikTok for 6 months or so, even posted a video. To me the only content was ever goofy dances, magic tricks, acrobatics and 'pranks'. No more harmful than any other human-targeting Skinner Box.