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Before people think that this policy is all roses, a close friend of mine is the CEO of a multi billion dollar international business. They don’t hire anyone fr

Before people think that this policy is all roses, a close friend of mine is the CEO of a multi billion dollar international business. They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire. Maybe you could argue that the French are better off without them, but people love working for them and they have great pay and benefits. I’m sure there are a number of companies that France and Germany miss out on due to policies like these. Companies simply can’t always pay people to not work for 6 months to a year, so they’ll go somewhere where they don’t have to.

sveme 6y ago
People aren‘t paid by companies during parental leave, so I call bullshit here. And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality.
- gnicholas 6y ago
  > And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality. Hiring laws aren't, but firing laws are. When I worked as a corporate lawyer, we had lawyers who specialized in knowing the employment laws in various countries and advising companies on the process for exiting, the cost for doing so, etc. I'd also disagree that people aren't paid by companies during parental leave. They are often topped-up by companies. This was the case at the law firm where I worked, and at the R1 university my wife works for. I'm sure it is also the case at FAANG, which have generous corporate leave policies.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I'm not going to pretend that parental leave doesn't have its downsides. Of course it also results in companies hiring more people to account for the loss of productivity. It isn't cheap, even if the government is footing the bill.
  - sveme 6y ago
    Firing laws are not dependent on nationality, but the location of the employer. If you are based in France, you have to adhere to French laws, simple as that. If you hire a French in the UK, the UK rules apply. But I guess that's clear to everyone, I was just taking issue with GP's statement that his friend does not hire the French. He probably does not hire in France.
car 6y ago
CEO of a multi billion dollar international business Companies simply can’t always pay people to not work for 6 months to a year, so they’ll go somewhere where they don’t have to. Why ‘simply can’t’ a ‘multi billion dollar international business’ offer paid parental leave, if so required by law? This does not make any sense, large international corporations will do business wherever they can profitably.
- buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
  I wasn't saying that this particular multi-billion dollar can't afford it. Just that there are many smaller companies that can't. This particular multi-billion dollar company certainly doesn't want to pay it. And so they get their employees from other places. They still do business in France and have customers there. They are a SAAS company. They just don't hire from there. Also, they do offer paid parental leave. Just not an entire year of it.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
In countries where the government pays the leave it’s not a big deal. In these countries we just planned for higher headcount. Usually not a problem for software dev because non-US salaries are so much lower in the first place. In countries where employers are on the hook for some or all of the cost, we just factored it in to the employee costs. Again, because software engineers were paid so much less in those countries it wasn’t a dealbreaker. At least in the software field, the US salaries are so much higher that the overhead is not a big deal in European countries. We had a lot of young people who wanted to relocate to US offices when they discovered the salary differences, though.
brnt 6y ago
In exchange for fewer top paying jobs, France, Germany and most other European countries in fact, favor a more equally distributed income and opportunity. This is motivated by a few centuries of experience: in turns out a more equal distribution (I.e. fewer poor) means less poverty related costs (financial and mental). Somehow companies are getting by just fine paying all of that leave in Europe (in fact, government pitches in too). It's just the kind of world you want: more disparity and lots of poverty in exchange for a lottery ticket to wealth or a solid baseline and fewer economic tophits.
- jariel 6y ago
  It is wishful thinking that policy makers understood (or even understand today) the 'tradeoff' or have any real awareness of the systematic effects of said labour policies. Many of the 'side effect' realities, for example as cited by the OP are very real, and go somewhat unmeasured or sidelined. Europe is not doing very well, it's treading above water, fumbling from crisis to crisis without any obvious pathways out. After the US-driven 2008 crisis, there were years of serious problems with the Euro, to the point wherein Italian banks (and others) were teetering on failure, two national governments were overthrown by the EU (Greece, Italy) there was a major migration crisis ... and then COVID hit. All of this with very problematic demographics, a rising China and an antagonizing US - it does not bode well. That France (and arguably Spain and Italy) did not undergo similar labour reforms similar to 'sick man of the 1990's Germany' has created ongoing damage. It's not all a 'one sided story' but there need to be intelligent labour reforms. The commenter echoes real sentiments across the business community with respect to hiring, even if it's not so perfectly accurate - 'firing' people in France is actually very difficult and a legit barrier to anyone wanting to expand there, among other things. People don't need to take a year off when they have children. They can, at some reduce pay perhaps, that would be a nice option, but the community doesn't need to share most of that burden.
  - brnt 6y ago
    Those policies are discussed in the open, don't generalize your countries dysfunctional political culture to the rest of the world. Also, don't assume then that your legislators considered the externalities such as poverty and working poor of such a disparate society. Europe is fine, don't confuse the absence of tophits for an absence of a strong middle class. I'm tempted to say Europe is in fact one of the most resilient economies at the moment for this reason, but that is not a very relevant debate here. What people need should be for them to decide. Staying with your newborn until the age of 1 does not seem wildly out of the ordinary for us a species (we notably born prematurely anyway). And then requiring equality also does not seem unnecessary to me ( in order to give families the choice of whose career to sacrifice). You couldnt demonstrate better why I will never leave Europe for work, I just don't share that Protestant work ethic to which so much seems to be sacrificed. There are other things in life. Perhaps not yours, but certainly in mine. I wish everybody to opportunity to have a life outside of work, even if they decline to make use of the right.
imtringued 6y ago
I don't know about French employment law but in Germany you can fire anyone for any reason. The only difference is that the contract doesn't expire on the day you fired that person. Instead it will expire in a few weeks (its a bit more complicated but not by much). If you fire the employee during probation (first 6 months) then the employment contract will expire immediately. If you can provide a good reason with proof you can also fire them immediately. Of course this gets abused by employers so you have heard stories where workers sue but only because the employer screwed up. If an employee were to force himself back into a job through a lawsuit then he could be fired but this time with the proper procedure and be forced to leave after a few weeks or months (depends on the contract). In other words, those who sue their employer because of a wrongful termination merely want the paychecks that they have been promised in their employment contract, they aren't doing so because they want to stay forever at such a company. If you can't decide within 6 months whether a hire is bad or not then that's on you. If you fail to fire them the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th year and so on then that's on you. How do another 4 weeks make your company worse? Maybe the french have an obviously worse system but I see Americans complain about practically any employment law that isn't theirs. They don't complain because it's bad, simply because it's different.
- skrause 6y ago
  > I don't know about French employment law but in Germany you can fire anyone for any reason. You don't seem to know about German employment law either because that's simply wrong. Basically in every company with more than 10 employees you can't fire anyone who has been with the company for more than 6 months, except for very few specific reasons which are listed here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCndigung_(deutsches_Arbeitsrecht)#K%C3%BCndigung_durch_den_Arbeitgeber https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCndigung_(deutsches_Arbe...
  - oaiey 6y ago
    Exactly. However, laying off people is possible. May cost you, is more complicated and takes more time than you might expect. But German HR departments are well capable of that. In most jobs nowadays, you have probation time, then time-limited contracts (maximum 2 x 1y) and then an unlimited contract. As a result, you can end contracts within the first 6 months, after a year and after two years w/o discussions or problems. That gives everyone enough time to sort out "bad hires" w/o any risk. Afterwards, a certain degree of protection starts, but money and reasonable rationale can end any contract. It is just very different than the US "hire and fire" thing. In Germany and other places it is expected that as an employee I have a certain degree of stability in my life.
lm28469 6y ago
> They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire That's why you have a 6 months trial period, right ?
- azepoi 6y ago
  For "cadres" ("executives" but really anyone with a job title requiring university degree like engineers) then the trial period can be extended to 8 months in France. By then you should know if you have made a bad hire.
Renaud 6y ago
You can staff your Paris office full of Californians, the labour laws that apply are still the French ones. So I guess that you meant this generous multi billions $ company has no operations in France? If so, then I don't understand why they wouldn't hire competent French staff if their operations are located in other countries where other local labour laws apply, regardless of your nationality.
jclos 6y ago
If treating their workers with decency is such an insurmountable hurdle then yes I would argue that we are much better off without your friend's company.
straw11 6y ago
No this the state will continue paying you. Companys just need to hold the place ready for return. But yeah jump to conclusion which suits your ideology.

sveme 6y ago

People aren‘t paid by companies during parental leave, so I call bullshit here. And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality.

gnicholas 6y ago
> And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality. Hiring laws aren't, but firing laws are. When I worked as a corporate lawyer, we had lawyers who specialized in knowing the employment laws in various countries and advising companies on the process for exiting, the cost for doing so, etc. I'd also disagree that people aren't paid by companies during parental leave. They are often topped-up by companies. This was the case at the law firm where I worked, and at the R1 university my wife works for. I'm sure it is also the case at FAANG, which have generous corporate leave policies.
- imtringued 6y ago
  I'm not going to pretend that parental leave doesn't have its downsides. Of course it also results in companies hiring more people to account for the loss of productivity. It isn't cheap, even if the government is footing the bill.
- sveme 6y ago
  Firing laws are not dependent on nationality, but the location of the employer. If you are based in France, you have to adhere to French laws, simple as that. If you hire a French in the UK, the UK rules apply. But I guess that's clear to everyone, I was just taking issue with GP's statement that his friend does not hire the French. He probably does not hire in France.

car 6y ago

CEO of a multi billion dollar international business Companies simply can’t always pay people to not work for 6 months to a year, so they’ll go somewhere where they don’t have to. Why ‘simply can’t’ a ‘multi billion dollar international business’ offer paid parental leave, if so required by law? This does not make any sense, large international corporations will do business wherever they can profitably.

buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
I wasn't saying that this particular multi-billion dollar can't afford it. Just that there are many smaller companies that can't. This particular multi-billion dollar company certainly doesn't want to pay it. And so they get their employees from other places. They still do business in France and have customers there. They are a SAAS company. They just don't hire from there. Also, they do offer paid parental leave. Just not an entire year of it.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

In countries where the government pays the leave it’s not a big deal. In these countries we just planned for higher headcount. Usually not a problem for software dev because non-US salaries are so much lower in the first place. In countries where employers are on the hook for some or all of the cost, we just factored it in to the employee costs. Again, because software engineers were paid so much less in those countries it wasn’t a dealbreaker. At least in the software field, the US salaries are so much higher that the overhead is not a big deal in European countries. We had a lot of young people who wanted to relocate to US offices when they discovered the salary differences, though.

brnt 6y ago

In exchange for fewer top paying jobs, France, Germany and most other European countries in fact, favor a more equally distributed income and opportunity. This is motivated by a few centuries of experience: in turns out a more equal distribution (I.e. fewer poor) means less poverty related costs (financial and mental). Somehow companies are getting by just fine paying all of that leave in Europe (in fact, government pitches in too). It's just the kind of world you want: more disparity and lots of poverty in exchange for a lottery ticket to wealth or a solid baseline and fewer economic tophits.

jariel 6y ago
It is wishful thinking that policy makers understood (or even understand today) the 'tradeoff' or have any real awareness of the systematic effects of said labour policies. Many of the 'side effect' realities, for example as cited by the OP are very real, and go somewhat unmeasured or sidelined. Europe is not doing very well, it's treading above water, fumbling from crisis to crisis without any obvious pathways out. After the US-driven 2008 crisis, there were years of serious problems with the Euro, to the point wherein Italian banks (and others) were teetering on failure, two national governments were overthrown by the EU (Greece, Italy) there was a major migration crisis ... and then COVID hit. All of this with very problematic demographics, a rising China and an antagonizing US - it does not bode well. That France (and arguably Spain and Italy) did not undergo similar labour reforms similar to 'sick man of the 1990's Germany' has created ongoing damage. It's not all a 'one sided story' but there need to be intelligent labour reforms. The commenter echoes real sentiments across the business community with respect to hiring, even if it's not so perfectly accurate - 'firing' people in France is actually very difficult and a legit barrier to anyone wanting to expand there, among other things. People don't need to take a year off when they have children. They can, at some reduce pay perhaps, that would be a nice option, but the community doesn't need to share most of that burden.
- brnt 6y ago
  Those policies are discussed in the open, don't generalize your countries dysfunctional political culture to the rest of the world. Also, don't assume then that your legislators considered the externalities such as poverty and working poor of such a disparate society. Europe is fine, don't confuse the absence of tophits for an absence of a strong middle class. I'm tempted to say Europe is in fact one of the most resilient economies at the moment for this reason, but that is not a very relevant debate here. What people need should be for them to decide. Staying with your newborn until the age of 1 does not seem wildly out of the ordinary for us a species (we notably born prematurely anyway). And then requiring equality also does not seem unnecessary to me ( in order to give families the choice of whose career to sacrifice). You couldnt demonstrate better why I will never leave Europe for work, I just don't share that Protestant work ethic to which so much seems to be sacrificed. There are other things in life. Perhaps not yours, but certainly in mine. I wish everybody to opportunity to have a life outside of work, even if they decline to make use of the right.

imtringued 6y ago

I don't know about French employment law but in Germany you can fire anyone for any reason. The only difference is that the contract doesn't expire on the day you fired that person. Instead it will expire in a few weeks (its a bit more complicated but not by much). If you fire the employee during probation (first 6 months) then the employment contract will expire immediately. If you can provide a good reason with proof you can also fire them immediately. Of course this gets abused by employers so you have heard stories where workers sue but only because the employer screwed up. If an employee were to force himself back into a job through a lawsuit then he could be fired but this time with the proper procedure and be forced to leave after a few weeks or months (depends on the contract). In other words, those who sue their employer because of a wrongful termination merely want the paychecks that they have been promised in their employment contract, they aren't doing so because they want to stay forever at such a company. If you can't decide within 6 months whether a hire is bad or not then that's on you. If you fail to fire them the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th year and so on then that's on you. How do another 4 weeks make your company worse? Maybe the french have an obviously worse system but I see Americans complain about practically any employment law that isn't theirs. They don't complain because it's bad, simply because it's different.

skrause 6y ago
> I don't know about French employment law but in Germany you can fire anyone for any reason. You don't seem to know about German employment law either because that's simply wrong. Basically in every company with more than 10 employees you can't fire anyone who has been with the company for more than 6 months, except for very few specific reasons which are listed here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCndigung_(deutsches_Arbeitsrecht)#K%C3%BCndigung_durch_den_Arbeitgeber https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCndigung_(deutsches_Arbe...
- oaiey 6y ago
  Exactly. However, laying off people is possible. May cost you, is more complicated and takes more time than you might expect. But German HR departments are well capable of that. In most jobs nowadays, you have probation time, then time-limited contracts (maximum 2 x 1y) and then an unlimited contract. As a result, you can end contracts within the first 6 months, after a year and after two years w/o discussions or problems. That gives everyone enough time to sort out "bad hires" w/o any risk. Afterwards, a certain degree of protection starts, but money and reasonable rationale can end any contract. It is just very different than the US "hire and fire" thing. In Germany and other places it is expected that as an employee I have a certain degree of stability in my life.

lm28469 6y ago

> They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire That's why you have a 6 months trial period, right ?

azepoi 6y ago
For "cadres" ("executives" but really anyone with a job title requiring university degree like engineers) then the trial period can be extended to 8 months in France. By then you should know if you have made a bad hire.

Renaud 6y ago

You can staff your Paris office full of Californians, the labour laws that apply are still the French ones. So I guess that you meant this generous multi billions $ company has no operations in France? If so, then I don't understand why they wouldn't hire competent French staff if their operations are located in other countries where other local labour laws apply, regardless of your nationality.

jclos 6y ago

If treating their workers with decency is such an insurmountable hurdle then yes I would argue that we are much better off without your friend's company.

straw11 6y ago

No this the state will continue paying you. Companys just need to hold the place ready for return. But yeah jump to conclusion which suits your ideology.