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I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not. If you dont care about what I think, what will happen if down the road things get rocky? You probably wont c

I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not. If you dont care about what I think, what will happen if down the road things get rocky? You probably wont care about me then either and will bail or be unreliable.

bserge 6y ago
What? And if you force me to do your social song and dance, does that telegraph that you don't care about me? I care about the person and the work. Not about whether they hold their spoon and knife in the right hand.
- tarboreus 6y ago
  Etiquette sends a strong signal that you're socially reliable. Working in groups is difficult and you can't just brute force it by waving your hands and saying you only care about the work or about being nice or whatever. Disagreements happen constantly and you can't just fight or disband the group every time you don't reach consensus, or you can but your group will be quickly outcompeted by a more functional group. Etiquette and other social skills allow for continued cooperation in social circumstances with many moving parts and competing interests. Doing things like sitting down when others sit down, etc. are really just table stakes. If you don't have the basics of reading a situation and applying rudimentary social norms appropriately you're kind of socially radioactive and will be treated accordingly, i.e. you won't move on to the more interesting interactions and you'll be placed in a baby zone unless people need to negotiate with you for specific resources. Programmers can get away with this better than most because it's a skill people need, but it's still kind of a disaster not to get decent with this stuff and you probably won't even understand how much it's damaging you.
  - RobertKerans 6y ago
    It's quite sad that you've needed to put that much thought into an explanation.
    - adverbly 6y ago
      It actually does take that much thought though! Social dynamics are extremely complex to model, and they are way more important than we think. There is a lot of complex game theory and metagaming going on. Most of it goes over my head, but people's "gut feeling" about others takes a lot of things into account(what they know that I know, etc...). Communicating while maintaining good gut feelings is not easy! We basically need to hack our own minds to get things right.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  And if they did something more extreme like for example literally eat like a walrus? That wouldn't weird you out even a little bit? Nothing in the back of your mind would say "watch out for that guy, he seems a bit psychopath-y"?
Aeronwen 6y ago
It shouldn't, because the best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. Which is why it's an important skill to learn. Because you too can exploit it for personal gain.
- adamsea 6y ago
  > because the best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. Evidence? This assumes that “the etiquette game” is fundamentally untrustworthy, unimportant, or trivial.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    I guess it is if you treat it as a game. I'm kinda surprised that even things like shaking hands and smiling are treated with so much disdain by some people. It just seems like Being Friendly 101 to me.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      Agreed :). I mean I think it’s both. When learning new social norms, or, in certain environments there is a game-like aspect. But I don’t use the word game as a pejorative.
- adverbly 6y ago
  > The best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. I can totally see that this is true in some circles(e.g. sales people). But in other circles (e.g. education/some types of customer service), etiquette can be a good indicator of how willing someone is to assist. Like many things in this space, this varies so much depending on someone's situation(e.g. line of work, culture, industry, circle of friends, etc...)

bserge 6y ago

What? And if you force me to do your social song and dance, does that telegraph that you don't care about me? I care about the person and the work. Not about whether they hold their spoon and knife in the right hand.

tarboreus 6y ago
Etiquette sends a strong signal that you're socially reliable. Working in groups is difficult and you can't just brute force it by waving your hands and saying you only care about the work or about being nice or whatever. Disagreements happen constantly and you can't just fight or disband the group every time you don't reach consensus, or you can but your group will be quickly outcompeted by a more functional group. Etiquette and other social skills allow for continued cooperation in social circumstances with many moving parts and competing interests. Doing things like sitting down when others sit down, etc. are really just table stakes. If you don't have the basics of reading a situation and applying rudimentary social norms appropriately you're kind of socially radioactive and will be treated accordingly, i.e. you won't move on to the more interesting interactions and you'll be placed in a baby zone unless people need to negotiate with you for specific resources. Programmers can get away with this better than most because it's a skill people need, but it's still kind of a disaster not to get decent with this stuff and you probably won't even understand how much it's damaging you.
- RobertKerans 6y ago
  It's quite sad that you've needed to put that much thought into an explanation.
  - adverbly 6y ago
    It actually does take that much thought though! Social dynamics are extremely complex to model, and they are way more important than we think. There is a lot of complex game theory and metagaming going on. Most of it goes over my head, but people's "gut feeling" about others takes a lot of things into account(what they know that I know, etc...). Communicating while maintaining good gut feelings is not easy! We basically need to hack our own minds to get things right.
read_if_gay_ 6y ago
And if they did something more extreme like for example literally eat like a walrus? That wouldn't weird you out even a little bit? Nothing in the back of your mind would say "watch out for that guy, he seems a bit psychopath-y"?

Aeronwen 6y ago

It shouldn't, because the best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. Which is why it's an important skill to learn. Because you too can exploit it for personal gain.

adamsea 6y ago
> because the best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. Evidence? This assumes that “the etiquette game” is fundamentally untrustworthy, unimportant, or trivial.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  I guess it is if you treat it as a game. I'm kinda surprised that even things like shaking hands and smiling are treated with so much disdain by some people. It just seems like Being Friendly 101 to me.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Agreed :). I mean I think it’s both. When learning new social norms, or, in certain environments there is a game-like aspect. But I don’t use the word game as a pejorative.
adverbly 6y ago
> The best people at playing the etiquette game are the ones you shouldn't trust. I can totally see that this is true in some circles(e.g. sales people). But in other circles (e.g. education/some types of customer service), etiquette can be a good indicator of how willing someone is to assist. Like many things in this space, this varies so much depending on someone's situation(e.g. line of work, culture, industry, circle of friends, etc...)