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Social etiquette drives me up the wall sometimes. I get it, it's necessary, and I do follow it, but there are some that just make zero sense. In fact, most of

by bserge 6y ago

Social etiquette drives me up the wall sometimes. I get it, it's necessary, and I do follow it, but there are some that just make zero sense. In fact, most of them make no sense. It's just social constructs made by people, and some go to war over it. Ridiculous. I don't want to shake hands, I don't want to smile, I don't want to sit down if you do. It's like, why does it matter to you? I literally couldn't give half a fork about it, so if I can learn to forget the more detailed bullshit, so can you. Focus on what matters, not whether I'm slouching or not.

Retric 6y ago
Etiquette is really a language. If you mean red and say blue people can only go by what you said. Specific words have specific meanings because of convention not some innate property of the universe. Similarly, body language has a specific meaning based on convention, so people will assume you mean what your saying. PS: The posture convention is based on norms of physical fitness and body weight which make standing up strait close to the default. Assuming being overweight becomes the long term norm things may change.
- bserge 6y ago
  Eh, isn't that why language was invented? Late Stephen Hawking would've had a hard time with body language and even intonation. Fortunately, we have words that convey exactly what we want.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Edit: To your point, physical disabilities are meaningful, but hawking is in large part known for his difficulties communicating not being rude. Etiquette still applies to the written word for example. Anyway, you can’t speak without interrupting the speaker, but you can gesture. Similarly, people don’t constantly walk around repeating I am angry/sad/happy/etc. Etiquette is a constant framework and channel of communication where spoken language is for specifics. The words you say can be less important than the volume, timing, etc of how you say them. Grunts may work assuming they fit in with social conventions. The grammar of etiquette is similarly important. Prisoners may fight each other, but the vast majority of the time their doing something else. Fail to communicate well, and it may just get you killed. PS: Though I may be overusing the etiquette as language analogy, it’s a very close fit.
  - MereInterest 6y ago
    > Fortunately, we have words that convey exactly what we want. Words can be just as fuzzy as body language. Sometimes, this can be done intentionally, for dramatic effect (e.g. "The duke yet lives that Henry shall depose"). English can have syntactic ambiguity, which limits the understanding of a phrase. In the sentence "I saw the man on the mountain with the telescope.", was I using a telescope to see the man on the mountain, or did I observe that the man on the mountain was himself looking through a telescope? [0] Whether words are to be taken literally or metaphorically depends entirely on the context and the audience. Heck, the same word can be functioning both literally and metaphorically within the same sentence [1]. In the sentence "He took his hat and his leave", the word "took" is literal in the phrase "took his hat", but metaphorical in the phrase "took his leave". There's an entire class of errors [2] related to encoding of thoughts to speech not matching the decoding of speech to thoughts. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_ambiguity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma_and_syllepsis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma_and_syllepsis [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberrant_decoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberrant_decoding Edit: This may have come off a bit harsh, but that was not my intent. I had the same understanding ten years ago, that the uncertainty of communication can only be shackled by the rigidity of language. I found that I had built my house upon sand, for there is nothing sturdy to be found within language, and seekers will find only chaos and descriptivism.
    - ywei3410 6y ago
      Good answer! Wittgenstein’s philosophical work also adds an extra critique to this view of language. [1] https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning-is-use-wittgenstein-on-the-limits-of-language/ https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      > metaphorical in the phrase "took his leave" How so? Surely "took his leave" is quite literal, meaning he left. See https://www.lexico.com/definition/take_one%27s_leave https://www.lexico.com/definition/take_one%27s_leave
x87678r 6y ago
I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not. If you dont care about what I think, what will happen if down the road things get rocky? You probably wont care about me then either and will bail or be unreliable.
- bserge 6y ago
  What? And if you force me to do your social song and dance, does that telegraph that you don't care about me? I care about the person and the work. Not about whether they hold their spoon and knife in the right hand.
  - tarboreus 6y ago
    Etiquette sends a strong signal that you're socially reliable. Working in groups is difficult and you can't just brute force it by waving your hands and saying you only care about the work or about being nice or whatever. Disagreements happen constantly and you can't just fight or disband the group every time you don't reach consensus, or you can but your group will be quickly outcompeted by a more functional group. Etiquette and other social skills allow for continued cooperation in social circumstances with many moving parts and competing interests. Doing things like sitting down when others sit down, etc. are really just table stakes. If you don't have the basics of reading a situation and applying rudimentary social norms appropriately you're kind of socially radioactive and will be treated accordingly, i.e. you won't move on to the more interesting interactions and you'll be placed in a baby zone unless people need to negotiate with you for specific resources. Programmers can get away with this better than most because it's a skill people need, but it's still kind of a disaster not to get decent with this stuff and you probably won't even understand how much it's damaging you.
    - RobertKerans 6y ago
      It's quite sad that you've needed to put that much thought into an explanation.
      - 6y ago
adamsea 6y ago
Once you accept human nature for what it is, etiquette makes sense. Truthfully, to not accept the scientific findings on the human animal (social, not always rationally, powerfully influenced by appearances, emotion, etc, you know — human) is irrational. Lol which doesn’t make it any easier sometimes ;). My two cents.
cascom 6y ago
Social etiquette is about respect and care for others as well as yourself, lack of etiquette in my mind is a display of lack of self awareness at best, and self centered/narcissism at worst.
robocat 6y ago
Etiquette is often about social status, and social signalling of group/clique belonging: perhaps that is the part you rail against? A sibling comment says: “I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not“, but I would translate that to mean whether you care to show you belong to their group or not. I also loath some etiquette because it is meaningless: more about exclusion than politeness or showing you care. It is extremely similar to dressing appropriately for the social crowd you are interacting with: you can use your own social norms but people won’t accept you so easily.

by bserge 6y ago

Retric 6y ago

Etiquette is really a language. If you mean red and say blue people can only go by what you said. Specific words have specific meanings because of convention not some innate property of the universe. Similarly, body language has a specific meaning based on convention, so people will assume you mean what your saying. PS: The posture convention is based on norms of physical fitness and body weight which make standing up strait close to the default. Assuming being overweight becomes the long term norm things may change.

bserge 6y ago
Eh, isn't that why language was invented? Late Stephen Hawking would've had a hard time with body language and even intonation. Fortunately, we have words that convey exactly what we want.
- Retric 6y ago
  Edit: To your point, physical disabilities are meaningful, but hawking is in large part known for his difficulties communicating not being rude. Etiquette still applies to the written word for example. Anyway, you can’t speak without interrupting the speaker, but you can gesture. Similarly, people don’t constantly walk around repeating I am angry/sad/happy/etc. Etiquette is a constant framework and channel of communication where spoken language is for specifics. The words you say can be less important than the volume, timing, etc of how you say them. Grunts may work assuming they fit in with social conventions. The grammar of etiquette is similarly important. Prisoners may fight each other, but the vast majority of the time their doing something else. Fail to communicate well, and it may just get you killed. PS: Though I may be overusing the etiquette as language analogy, it’s a very close fit.
- MereInterest 6y ago
  > Fortunately, we have words that convey exactly what we want. Words can be just as fuzzy as body language. Sometimes, this can be done intentionally, for dramatic effect (e.g. "The duke yet lives that Henry shall depose"). English can have syntactic ambiguity, which limits the understanding of a phrase. In the sentence "I saw the man on the mountain with the telescope.", was I using a telescope to see the man on the mountain, or did I observe that the man on the mountain was himself looking through a telescope? [0] Whether words are to be taken literally or metaphorically depends entirely on the context and the audience. Heck, the same word can be functioning both literally and metaphorically within the same sentence [1]. In the sentence "He took his hat and his leave", the word "took" is literal in the phrase "took his hat", but metaphorical in the phrase "took his leave". There's an entire class of errors [2] related to encoding of thoughts to speech not matching the decoding of speech to thoughts. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_ambiguity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_ambiguity [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma_and_syllepsis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma_and_syllepsis [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberrant_decoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberrant_decoding Edit: This may have come off a bit harsh, but that was not my intent. I had the same understanding ten years ago, that the uncertainty of communication can only be shackled by the rigidity of language. I found that I had built my house upon sand, for there is nothing sturdy to be found within language, and seekers will find only chaos and descriptivism.
  - ywei3410 6y ago
    Good answer! Wittgenstein’s philosophical work also adds an extra critique to this view of language. [1] https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning-is-use-wittgenstein-on-the-limits-of-language/ https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    > metaphorical in the phrase "took his leave" How so? Surely "took his leave" is quite literal, meaning he left. See https://www.lexico.com/definition/take_one%27s_leave https://www.lexico.com/definition/take_one%27s_leave

x87678r 6y ago

I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not. If you dont care about what I think, what will happen if down the road things get rocky? You probably wont care about me then either and will bail or be unreliable.

bserge 6y ago
What? And if you force me to do your social song and dance, does that telegraph that you don't care about me? I care about the person and the work. Not about whether they hold their spoon and knife in the right hand.
- tarboreus 6y ago
  Etiquette sends a strong signal that you're socially reliable. Working in groups is difficult and you can't just brute force it by waving your hands and saying you only care about the work or about being nice or whatever. Disagreements happen constantly and you can't just fight or disband the group every time you don't reach consensus, or you can but your group will be quickly outcompeted by a more functional group. Etiquette and other social skills allow for continued cooperation in social circumstances with many moving parts and competing interests. Doing things like sitting down when others sit down, etc. are really just table stakes. If you don't have the basics of reading a situation and applying rudimentary social norms appropriately you're kind of socially radioactive and will be treated accordingly, i.e. you won't move on to the more interesting interactions and you'll be placed in a baby zone unless people need to negotiate with you for specific resources. Programmers can get away with this better than most because it's a skill people need, but it's still kind of a disaster not to get decent with this stuff and you probably won't even understand how much it's damaging you.
  - RobertKerans 6y ago
    It's quite sad that you've needed to put that much thought into an explanation.
    - 6y ago

adamsea 6y ago

Once you accept human nature for what it is, etiquette makes sense. Truthfully, to not accept the scientific findings on the human animal (social, not always rationally, powerfully influenced by appearances, emotion, etc, you know — human) is irrational. Lol which doesn’t make it any easier sometimes ;). My two cents.

cascom 6y ago

Social etiquette is about respect and care for others as well as yourself, lack of etiquette in my mind is a display of lack of self awareness at best, and self centered/narcissism at worst.

robocat 6y ago

Etiquette is often about social status, and social signalling of group/clique belonging: perhaps that is the part you rail against? A sibling comment says: “I think it telegraphs if you care about us or not“, but I would translate that to mean whether you care to show you belong to their group or not. I also loath some etiquette because it is meaningless: more about exclusion than politeness or showing you care. It is extremely similar to dressing appropriately for the social crowd you are interacting with: you can use your own social norms but people won’t accept you so easily.