9 ms·

You need to separate sales from marketing. Sales is a conversation, marketing is a broadcast. Marketing gets the phone to ring, sales takes the call and closes

You need to separate sales from marketing. Sales is a conversation, marketing is a broadcast. Marketing gets the phone to ring, sales takes the call and closes the deal. For B2B sales resembles project management: the goal is not to convince everyone to buy your product or service but to diagnose their needs and only engage with firms that will benefit. For larger deals you "sell with your ears" as much as you talk. I find Neil Rackham's "Spin Selling" very useful. Peter Cohan's "Great Demo" embeds a lot of discovery advice and suggests that a good demo is really a conversation driven by mutual curiosity about customer needs and software capabilities. For B2B customer development interviews (those early market discovery conversations) I have a short book you may find helpful. See https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2020/01/30/40-tips-for-b2b-customer-development-interviews/ https://www.skmurphy.com/blog/2020/01/30/40-tips-for-b2b-cus... (there is also a link at the bottom for a PDF version). Two final books I would suggest, while not exactly sales books, are "The Innovator's DNA" by Clayton Christensen and "The Right It (Pretotype It)" by Alberto Savoia. They cover a number of techniques for finding the right problem to solve and determining if your solution is a good fit for customer needs. I mention them because it's not uncommon for a startup to have a product problem that manifests as a sales problem.

philshem 6y ago
I’m not in sales at all, but learning SPIN works great to make a case for something in a structured way. It’s like a funnel to bring people into agreement with my viewpoint.
tootie 6y ago
Sales is also graded by level of "touch". For example, selling IT services contracts is very high touch. Signing a deal could involve weeks of written correspondence (RFI, RFP), in-person pitching, contract negotiation, etc. Low touch could be fully automated with simple, non-negotiable pricing. There are lots of levels in between.
- bluetwo 6y ago
  Weeks. I wish. :-)
  - meddlepal 6y ago
    My first job ever I befriended one of the senior sales guys at an after work drinking event. We built software that integrated into and with a range of embedded devices of which many were medical. He was one of the guys that worked closely with our EMEA customers who were notoriously slow to sign. Three years later he drove in to the office lot with a brand new Porsche 911 which was a portion of his commission for closing the deal after something insane like 33 months. He was happy to have that deal done.
    - madaxe_again 6y ago
      I’m two years into brokering a deal between a client and two blue-chip behemoths. It has been endless cycles of documentation, specification, certification, auditing, horse-trading, rescoping, consulting, wargaming, ratifying, and many of the faces have changed over the last two years. It’ll be a big deal for all of them, but just getting everything in place for them to all agree and sign is just insane - my longest sales process before this was maybe 4 months, 400 hours - this has easily eaten tens of thousands of man hours so far. One thing I’ve observed is that the deal almost becomes secondary - by this point, there’s an entire self-sustaining bureaucracy around the deal, many of the deliverables the deal specified are already in place and money has changed hands, hires have been made, everything has essentially happened as though the deal has gone ahead - yet I’m spending this afternoon rejigging information security roles and responsibilities to make the interfaces more on parity with the security team of one of the blue chips, because until the contract is signed, the deal isn’t done, and all parties are just merrily swimming out into deeper waters together, growing technical and operational dependencies around each other with no legal agreement. At this point, the businesses are just getting on with stuff as though the deal is done, the counsels are screaming because nobody is interested in moving the boring paperwork forwards, and I’m charging by the hour. Buys a lot of popcorn. Sales is weird. Edit: just realised we might be talking about the same healthcare customers.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
> You need to separate sales from marketing. Sales is a conversation, marketing is a broadcast. Close, but not quite. Marketing is the brand, the image, points of differentiation, etc. It's the message. Advertising is the broadcast. It's how the message is communicated. It's the medium. Marketing + advertising = prospects and leads. Sales is the last mile. It takes the results of marketing + advertising (i.e., leads and prospects) and guides those to closing. Contrary to myth, successful sales is about listening, not talking. Sales is
- gk1 6y ago
  That definition is very—let’s say—unique. In my 7+ years of marketing I have never met anyone or read anything that put advertising outside of marketing. It’s even in the academic “4P” definition of marketing (“Promotion”).
  - chiefalchemist 6y ago
    Marketing is the message. Advertising is how that's communicated. Using a billboard or a TV advert is not marketing. Of course, marketing needs to be advertized. Else you'd just be sitting around a confernce table all day. Sooner of later the (marketing) message will need to be...advertised. And yes, the medium can be the message. But a magazine advertisement is not a brand style guide. Tradeshow swag is not a tag line. It not a question of placement - inside or out - it's simple proven definitions.
    - gk1 6y ago
      You’re welcome to dream up your own definitions, but then don’t patronize others: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising
      - chiefalchemist 6y ago
        Note the opening five words: "Advertising is a marketing communication..." Your tone is unnecessary and off-target. The above quote from line one is exactly what I said. You don't just wake up, roll out of bed, and advertise. Well, you can but waste a ton of money. In any case, that message needs to be crafted. That's marketing. Advertising is how you disseminate that "plan." Logo - marketing, not advertising. Style guide - marketing, not advertising. Positioning of the brand - marketing, not advertising. And so on. Marketing is the plan. How you wish take and place your brand / product to market. Advertising is the communication of that to thd market. Advertising is what happens when the meeting ends and its time to engage the market. Marketing = what we have to say and who we wish to say it to. Advertising = Got it. Let's see what tools we have to best make that happen. No dreams. That is how it happens.
mindhash 6y ago
Came to say exactly this. As a first time entrepreneur its important to learn how to spread ideas. Sales comes after.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
gogopuppygogo 6y ago
Great summary on sales and marketing but neither is a monolith. Sales can best be distinguished by indirect sales and direct sales. Direct sales is where you go out and find clients. Indirect sales is where you go out and find partners to bring you clients. You don’t buy Coca Cola from Coca Cola. You rarely by HP from HP. Companies tend to be more successful when they find ways to grow using “channels”. This is a good summary of finding your path toward channel sales: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297479 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297479 This is a good kit to start a channel sales program: https://chanimaluniversity.com/product/reseller-program-kit-1-best-seller-over-70-documents/ https://chanimaluniversity.com/product/reseller-program-kit-...
- blueblisters 6y ago
  Has anyone had success doing B2B SaaS sales using cloud marketplaces like AWS marketplace, GCP marketplace, Azure, etc.? I wonder if that qualifies as "channel sales".
  - gogopuppygogo 6y ago
    I think any third party taking a margin off your sale to help facilitate the transaction constitutes a channel.
    - nikitaga 6y ago
      Stripe isn't a channel though. The third party in question needs to actually do some work to bring you traffic / leads, not just do the mechanics of processing the transaction.
  - pilooch 6y ago
    I did a bit with instances of an Open Source deep learning server of mine, for three years+ now. Made up to 1.5k/month, lower now but it's on my plate to revive it. It's provided side money to our service/ software business. Keep in mind there's a 30% cut from AWS, plus if you're in the EU, you need a tier like payoneer to channel your revenues back into the EU.
sitkack 6y ago
> diagnose their needs and only engage with firms that will benefit. I have done technical sales-like engagements and this is the number one pattern I see from relationships that went well. The customer determined, for whatever reason (rightly so) that I could solve their problems. So they opened up and explained what the problems really are. If you can't get this, you can't help someone.

philshem 6y ago

I’m not in sales at all, but learning SPIN works great to make a case for something in a structured way. It’s like a funnel to bring people into agreement with my viewpoint.

tootie 6y ago

Sales is also graded by level of "touch". For example, selling IT services contracts is very high touch. Signing a deal could involve weeks of written correspondence (RFI, RFP), in-person pitching, contract negotiation, etc. Low touch could be fully automated with simple, non-negotiable pricing. There are lots of levels in between.

bluetwo 6y ago
Weeks. I wish. :-)
- meddlepal 6y ago
  My first job ever I befriended one of the senior sales guys at an after work drinking event. We built software that integrated into and with a range of embedded devices of which many were medical. He was one of the guys that worked closely with our EMEA customers who were notoriously slow to sign. Three years later he drove in to the office lot with a brand new Porsche 911 which was a portion of his commission for closing the deal after something insane like 33 months. He was happy to have that deal done.
  - madaxe_again 6y ago
    I’m two years into brokering a deal between a client and two blue-chip behemoths. It has been endless cycles of documentation, specification, certification, auditing, horse-trading, rescoping, consulting, wargaming, ratifying, and many of the faces have changed over the last two years. It’ll be a big deal for all of them, but just getting everything in place for them to all agree and sign is just insane - my longest sales process before this was maybe 4 months, 400 hours - this has easily eaten tens of thousands of man hours so far. One thing I’ve observed is that the deal almost becomes secondary - by this point, there’s an entire self-sustaining bureaucracy around the deal, many of the deliverables the deal specified are already in place and money has changed hands, hires have been made, everything has essentially happened as though the deal has gone ahead - yet I’m spending this afternoon rejigging information security roles and responsibilities to make the interfaces more on parity with the security team of one of the blue chips, because until the contract is signed, the deal isn’t done, and all parties are just merrily swimming out into deeper waters together, growing technical and operational dependencies around each other with no legal agreement. At this point, the businesses are just getting on with stuff as though the deal is done, the counsels are screaming because nobody is interested in moving the boring paperwork forwards, and I’m charging by the hour. Buys a lot of popcorn. Sales is weird. Edit: just realised we might be talking about the same healthcare customers.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

> You need to separate sales from marketing. Sales is a conversation, marketing is a broadcast. Close, but not quite. Marketing is the brand, the image, points of differentiation, etc. It's the message. Advertising is the broadcast. It's how the message is communicated. It's the medium. Marketing + advertising = prospects and leads. Sales is the last mile. It takes the results of marketing + advertising (i.e., leads and prospects) and guides those to closing. Contrary to myth, successful sales is about listening, not talking. Sales is

gk1 6y ago
That definition is very—let’s say—unique. In my 7+ years of marketing I have never met anyone or read anything that put advertising outside of marketing. It’s even in the academic “4P” definition of marketing (“Promotion”).
- chiefalchemist 6y ago
  Marketing is the message. Advertising is how that's communicated. Using a billboard or a TV advert is not marketing. Of course, marketing needs to be advertized. Else you'd just be sitting around a confernce table all day. Sooner of later the (marketing) message will need to be...advertised. And yes, the medium can be the message. But a magazine advertisement is not a brand style guide. Tradeshow swag is not a tag line. It not a question of placement - inside or out - it's simple proven definitions.
  - gk1 6y ago
    You’re welcome to dream up your own definitions, but then don’t patronize others: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising
    - chiefalchemist 6y ago
      Note the opening five words: "Advertising is a marketing communication..." Your tone is unnecessary and off-target. The above quote from line one is exactly what I said. You don't just wake up, roll out of bed, and advertise. Well, you can but waste a ton of money. In any case, that message needs to be crafted. That's marketing. Advertising is how you disseminate that "plan." Logo - marketing, not advertising. Style guide - marketing, not advertising. Positioning of the brand - marketing, not advertising. And so on. Marketing is the plan. How you wish take and place your brand / product to market. Advertising is the communication of that to thd market. Advertising is what happens when the meeting ends and its time to engage the market. Marketing = what we have to say and who we wish to say it to. Advertising = Got it. Let's see what tools we have to best make that happen. No dreams. That is how it happens.

mindhash 6y ago

Came to say exactly this. As a first time entrepreneur its important to learn how to spread ideas. Sales comes after.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

gogopuppygogo 6y ago

Great summary on sales and marketing but neither is a monolith. Sales can best be distinguished by indirect sales and direct sales. Direct sales is where you go out and find clients. Indirect sales is where you go out and find partners to bring you clients. You don’t buy Coca Cola from Coca Cola. You rarely by HP from HP. Companies tend to be more successful when they find ways to grow using “channels”. This is a good summary of finding your path toward channel sales: https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297479 https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/297479 This is a good kit to start a channel sales program: https://chanimaluniversity.com/product/reseller-program-kit-1-best-seller-over-70-documents/ https://chanimaluniversity.com/product/reseller-program-kit-...

blueblisters 6y ago
Has anyone had success doing B2B SaaS sales using cloud marketplaces like AWS marketplace, GCP marketplace, Azure, etc.? I wonder if that qualifies as "channel sales".
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  I think any third party taking a margin off your sale to help facilitate the transaction constitutes a channel.
  - nikitaga 6y ago
    Stripe isn't a channel though. The third party in question needs to actually do some work to bring you traffic / leads, not just do the mechanics of processing the transaction.
- pilooch 6y ago
  I did a bit with instances of an Open Source deep learning server of mine, for three years+ now. Made up to 1.5k/month, lower now but it's on my plate to revive it. It's provided side money to our service/ software business. Keep in mind there's a 30% cut from AWS, plus if you're in the EU, you need a tier like payoneer to channel your revenues back into the EU.

sitkack 6y ago

> diagnose their needs and only engage with firms that will benefit. I have done technical sales-like engagements and this is the number one pattern I see from relationships that went well. The customer determined, for whatever reason (rightly so) that I could solve their problems. So they opened up and explained what the problems really are. If you can't get this, you can't help someone.