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> Brendan Eich didn't exactly get canceled. Brendan Eich disagrees. https://twitter.com/brendaneich/status/1217512049716035584?lang=en https://twitter.com/bre

> Brendan Eich didn't exactly get canceled. Brendan Eich disagrees. https://twitter.com/brendaneich/status/1217512049716035584?lang=en https://twitter.com/brendaneich/status/1217512049716035584?l... "In 2014-15, I could not get funding or a job, went outside valley to found Brave, took big pay cut & still-substantial long-term risk."

Frondo 6y ago
Frankly speaking, it'd be a better argument that he was "canceled" if he hadn't gotten funding at all. If this is what "being canceled" means, that your browser (I.e. commodity software in a mature marketplace where everyone gives it away for free) still gets funded then maybe it's not actually a meaningful harm to begin with.
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  I suggest "no effects at all" and "canceled for life, now dead or on welfare" is a false dichotomy. Obviously I had to rebuild a company and codebase rather than build on Firefox. Mozilla's loss, now.
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    Question is now, to be poignant, is to what you learned from the experience and what your regrets are.
    - BrendanEich 6y ago
      I can't comment on anything about Mozilla covered by NDAs. The rest will have to await my memoirs.
    - hitekker 6y ago
      Actually, the question is if you knew that Brendan Eich was harmed before you claimed he wasn't harmed at all. Pretending the victim wasn't harmed and then asking him "what he learned" and "what his regrets are" is pretty malicious.
      - no_wizard 6y ago
        I take issue with this. Reading my question back, it wasn't intended to be malicious (short and to the point is what I was going for). Broken down, its like this: I'm asking what he learned: What was the take away form the situation? Is there something of value from what happened that can be shared that is worthwhile? If it comes across as implied as anything else, then I did a poor job at framing, but the question in the literal is asking nothing more than that. My second question is simply, do you regret the experience? Do you have regrets surrounding the situation? An answer of "I don't regret anything about that situation" is another way to answer the same question. I wasn't setting a trap, I was hoping to use the fact the person in question was actually commenting to get more information about the experience from a different source. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. I'm doing my absolute best to leave my own personal feelings out of it as well, which is why I used the words I did, actually, I felt they were far more along the lines of matter of fact than anything else. Granted, I will concede we lose some of the human element in all this when talking over a text forum, so maybe this isn't obvious to others, however the questions were meant to elicit an honest response, not a defensive one. Edit: I'll go on the record (now seeing I got an answer) I think this narrative about "cancellation culture" is somewhat ridiculous. Its just an outgrowth of everyone being outraged in public forums now (Twitter, Facebook etc). Inevitable and very human, since any form of mass media was widely consumed (Tim Wu wrote a great book about mass media called The Master Switch which covers this very well). I don't think its a "problem" like some people make it out to be. Secondly no, I don't think he was harmed, Brave is a successful product, and having to go outside the valley to raise money isn't "canceling" somebody. You still have a business, you still are CEO of that business, and its a successful business. In fact, I know since all this with Mozilla he's been interviewed in positive lights for Brave specifically. This isn't exactly following the guys career. I know I'll likely take some flak for this, but I also don't disagree with what happened either. Actions have consequences, and the more publicly visible you are the more severe those consequences will be. A CEO that doesn't stand for the companies public values and missions isn't going to be kept on as CEO. In Mozilla's case, social equality is important enough that it affects the boardroom.
        ghaff 6y ago
    - monksy 6y ago
      Why should he "learn from a situation", and how can you have regrets? The way I see this: 1. He spent $1000 of his own money on something. It was a legal transaction. (Some people spend that on car stuff, others spend this on computer parts, and others spend this on their addiction to anime). Others, in other countries spend money in ways the US deems "immoral." 2. Other people tried to take what he spent it on and then apply this on his performance and tried to associate that action with "how the work place may be" (Is there evidence that he treated gay married individuals differently?) He did have an affect from this. (All the details aren't clear.. also I don't think they're important for this arguement from this). What is your stance on punishing him for doing #1 and #2?
      - no_wizard 6y ago
        Its all about takeaway, of course something like this might contain some valuable lessons, just like Osbourne Computer provided us with lessons in how not to sell a new product, in effect. I ask about regrets, because people have them, another valid answer would simply be that they do not regret anything about the situation. Sometimes, when answering the first question, they never get around to talking about this part, which can be equally if not more so valuable. I don't know how I could phrased this - and given the comment window, for visibility sake - any other way. They're two questions that I genuinely didn't intend to be "charged". I ask the same exact questions at the end of our sprints! Of course, the human element can be missing a little in a text forum, but I didn't want to accidentally word things in a way that would make someone defensive either, as I couldn't come up with a good way of wording things without introducing my own personal biases and opinions on the matter, which wouldn't have been a way to approach this to get someone to answer objectively (where objective means non defensive and in their own words and thoughts) First really consider the ask, on its face value, and consider you can always answer the question in the negative, if thats how you really feel. Thats what I was going for.
        crocodiletears 6y ago
        I appreciate your clarification here, and apologize for the shortness of my response: The way your comment was phrased, combined with your dismissiveness of Eich's departure from Mozilla in the comment's predecessor caused myself, and seemingly the preponderance of your respondants to read it in the tone of a kintergarten teacher asking a child if he'd learned his lesson, and to respond as such.
    - crocodiletears 6y ago
      "And what did you learn from this experience?" Probably not to donate to causes you believe in six years before you receive a promotion at the organization you've founded and helped lead for a decade and a half?
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    I just want to be clear I hold nothing untoward against you or anything like that. I have my 10000 foot view of corporate politics and such, and we may not well align there, but I don’t want this to be taken as something untoward. I rather appreciate that you read and responded to my comment and I don’t want any thing to come across as untoward
    - lilSebastian 6y ago
      Too late, you've already been cancelled.
  - Frondo 6y ago
    So you faced what seems like an ultimately mild consequence for a publicly-held and socially unpopular position. And this is the cancel culture we're all supposed to be worried about, really? What would have been, in your estimation, the appropriate consequence for working to deny marriage rights to gay people in California? Please don't say "nothing," i.e. no consequence.
monadic2 6y ago
On on hand you're right that this is "real" cancellation but you're doing a terrible job at showing that this is some kind of undue, non-deserved pain. Being unemployed for part of two years with savings strikes me as something most humans can weather without permanent trauma.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  Humans can also weather having to exist in the same world with people who believe different things than they do, too.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Yeah... I think when your beliefs are then saying that other people in society should be treated as lesser and then you push money to enable those beliefs, it crosses a line. If people just thought stupid shit but didn’t act or vote or spend money on it, it’d not be of consequence. Problem is, few people do that. They want their beliefs to be implemented. If they think gays aren’t worthy of being treated as equals then they’re probably gonna act on it.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    Which was rather the point regards the reaction to Eich, who sought to put force of law behind his differences in belief.

Frondo 6y ago

Frankly speaking, it'd be a better argument that he was "canceled" if he hadn't gotten funding at all. If this is what "being canceled" means, that your browser (I.e. commodity software in a mature marketplace where everyone gives it away for free) still gets funded then maybe it's not actually a meaningful harm to begin with.

BrendanEich 6y ago
I suggest "no effects at all" and "canceled for life, now dead or on welfare" is a false dichotomy. Obviously I had to rebuild a company and codebase rather than build on Firefox. Mozilla's loss, now.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  Question is now, to be poignant, is to what you learned from the experience and what your regrets are.
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    I can't comment on anything about Mozilla covered by NDAs. The rest will have to await my memoirs.
  - hitekker 6y ago
    Actually, the question is if you knew that Brendan Eich was harmed before you claimed he wasn't harmed at all. Pretending the victim wasn't harmed and then asking him "what he learned" and "what his regrets are" is pretty malicious.
    - no_wizard 6y ago
      I take issue with this. Reading my question back, it wasn't intended to be malicious (short and to the point is what I was going for). Broken down, its like this: I'm asking what he learned: What was the take away form the situation? Is there something of value from what happened that can be shared that is worthwhile? If it comes across as implied as anything else, then I did a poor job at framing, but the question in the literal is asking nothing more than that. My second question is simply, do you regret the experience? Do you have regrets surrounding the situation? An answer of "I don't regret anything about that situation" is another way to answer the same question. I wasn't setting a trap, I was hoping to use the fact the person in question was actually commenting to get more information about the experience from a different source. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. I'm doing my absolute best to leave my own personal feelings out of it as well, which is why I used the words I did, actually, I felt they were far more along the lines of matter of fact than anything else. Granted, I will concede we lose some of the human element in all this when talking over a text forum, so maybe this isn't obvious to others, however the questions were meant to elicit an honest response, not a defensive one. Edit: I'll go on the record (now seeing I got an answer) I think this narrative about "cancellation culture" is somewhat ridiculous. Its just an outgrowth of everyone being outraged in public forums now (Twitter, Facebook etc). Inevitable and very human, since any form of mass media was widely consumed (Tim Wu wrote a great book about mass media called The Master Switch which covers this very well). I don't think its a "problem" like some people make it out to be. Secondly no, I don't think he was harmed, Brave is a successful product, and having to go outside the valley to raise money isn't "canceling" somebody. You still have a business, you still are CEO of that business, and its a successful business. In fact, I know since all this with Mozilla he's been interviewed in positive lights for Brave specifically. This isn't exactly following the guys career. I know I'll likely take some flak for this, but I also don't disagree with what happened either. Actions have consequences, and the more publicly visible you are the more severe those consequences will be. A CEO that doesn't stand for the companies public values and missions isn't going to be kept on as CEO. In Mozilla's case, social equality is important enough that it affects the boardroom.
      - ghaff 6y ago
  - monksy 6y ago
    Why should he "learn from a situation", and how can you have regrets? The way I see this: 1. He spent $1000 of his own money on something. It was a legal transaction. (Some people spend that on car stuff, others spend this on computer parts, and others spend this on their addiction to anime). Others, in other countries spend money in ways the US deems "immoral." 2. Other people tried to take what he spent it on and then apply this on his performance and tried to associate that action with "how the work place may be" (Is there evidence that he treated gay married individuals differently?) He did have an affect from this. (All the details aren't clear.. also I don't think they're important for this arguement from this). What is your stance on punishing him for doing #1 and #2?
    - no_wizard 6y ago
      Its all about takeaway, of course something like this might contain some valuable lessons, just like Osbourne Computer provided us with lessons in how not to sell a new product, in effect. I ask about regrets, because people have them, another valid answer would simply be that they do not regret anything about the situation. Sometimes, when answering the first question, they never get around to talking about this part, which can be equally if not more so valuable. I don't know how I could phrased this - and given the comment window, for visibility sake - any other way. They're two questions that I genuinely didn't intend to be "charged". I ask the same exact questions at the end of our sprints! Of course, the human element can be missing a little in a text forum, but I didn't want to accidentally word things in a way that would make someone defensive either, as I couldn't come up with a good way of wording things without introducing my own personal biases and opinions on the matter, which wouldn't have been a way to approach this to get someone to answer objectively (where objective means non defensive and in their own words and thoughts) First really consider the ask, on its face value, and consider you can always answer the question in the negative, if thats how you really feel. Thats what I was going for.
      - crocodiletears 6y ago
        I appreciate your clarification here, and apologize for the shortness of my response: The way your comment was phrased, combined with your dismissiveness of Eich's departure from Mozilla in the comment's predecessor caused myself, and seemingly the preponderance of your respondants to read it in the tone of a kintergarten teacher asking a child if he'd learned his lesson, and to respond as such.
  - crocodiletears 6y ago
    "And what did you learn from this experience?" Probably not to donate to causes you believe in six years before you receive a promotion at the organization you've founded and helped lead for a decade and a half?
- no_wizard 6y ago
  I just want to be clear I hold nothing untoward against you or anything like that. I have my 10000 foot view of corporate politics and such, and we may not well align there, but I don’t want this to be taken as something untoward. I rather appreciate that you read and responded to my comment and I don’t want any thing to come across as untoward
  - lilSebastian 6y ago
    Too late, you've already been cancelled.
- Frondo 6y ago
  So you faced what seems like an ultimately mild consequence for a publicly-held and socially unpopular position. And this is the cancel culture we're all supposed to be worried about, really? What would have been, in your estimation, the appropriate consequence for working to deny marriage rights to gay people in California? Please don't say "nothing," i.e. no consequence.

monadic2 6y ago

On on hand you're right that this is "real" cancellation but you're doing a terrible job at showing that this is some kind of undue, non-deserved pain. Being unemployed for part of two years with savings strikes me as something most humans can weather without permanent trauma.

jimbokun 6y ago
Humans can also weather having to exist in the same world with people who believe different things than they do, too.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Yeah... I think when your beliefs are then saying that other people in society should be treated as lesser and then you push money to enable those beliefs, it crosses a line. If people just thought stupid shit but didn’t act or vote or spend money on it, it’d not be of consequence. Problem is, few people do that. They want their beliefs to be implemented. If they think gays aren’t worthy of being treated as equals then they’re probably gonna act on it.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Which was rather the point regards the reaction to Eich, who sought to put force of law behind his differences in belief.