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Uh, what? Officially, Taiwan is the Republic of China, and claims to be the legitimate government of all of China, and doesn't recognize Beijing. This is a left

Uh, what? Officially, Taiwan is the Republic of China, and claims to be the legitimate government of all of China, and doesn't recognize Beijing. This is a leftover of the civil war between CCP and KMT. The de jure situation is that the civil war is still unfinished. There are forces that want to move away from that de jure reality. But the fact is that that move hasn't happened (yet?). When it comes to de facto, Beijing "recognizes" Taiwan by allowing travel, communication and business. By Korean standards, China and Taiwan are unified.

ekpyrotic 6y ago
I think it is unfair that FooBarWidget's comment is being downvoted. I have no dog in this fight, but the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree -- but, instead, because it does not add value to the discussion or is not constructive. Just keen to protect HN from downvoting less popular views.
- willis936 6y ago
  Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of dogs in this specific fight.
- dheera 6y ago
  > HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree I totally agree with this. Unfortunately HN has gone completely down under now. I get downvoted to oblivion and sometimes even being flagged, every time I say an unpopular opinion, even when I give a full technical explanation to the discussion. I once got downvoted, flagged, and censored out for pointing out un-inclusive language, for example, and another time got downvoted several times for pointing out what I think are very valid privacy issues with Apple's practices. If I were to make a suggestion, HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button. Otherwise this just amounts to censorship of unpopular opinions. And in this case it's going to unfortunately turn into a popularity contest fight of up/down arrows between both sides of the Taiwan issue and frankly speaking that's unproductive. I think westerners who haven't studied that aspect of history really should see the historic facts as well as reasons behind why each side has their view. You don't have to agree with both but it's worthwhile understanding the origins in both viewpoints. UPDATE (9/25 15:14): The downvote army is here again! I personally think I'm contributing to this discussion above, but yet they're still downvoting me.
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    >HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button That's an interesting thought. What if there were an optional drop-down menu that allowed down-voters to provide canned feedback? Either way, I think you'd enjoy the discussion more if you worried less about voting. Unless you're selling something, the popularity of the sentiment you're expressing isn't especially relevant.
    - dheera 6y ago
      I'm not super worried about voting per se. If I get downvoted to death and my account banned, I'll have my discussions elsewhere than HN, and I have plenty of venues to have intellectual debate of higher quality than being downvoted and gagged every time I speak an unpopular opinion. I'm still probably far from that based on my current karma, but I've seen a noticable change in the quality of the community in the past year or so. It's just that I think it could be a great platform for controversial intellectual discussions, but the algorithm is designed to promote conformity rather than raising unpopular but well-backed opinions. For example, I've gotten my speech muffled by the algorithm every time I speak out against specific Apple practices, or against the current version of capitalism (not even capitalism as a general idea, which I agree with, just not the current implementation). Somehow saying something against Apple or contemporary American capitalism on HN is just like saying something against the leader in authoritarian regimes; you'll be flagged, beaten (downwvoted), muted, and banned by the community. I definitely like the drop-down idea. "I disagree" would not be one of the options for downvote. Some of the valid options I can think of are: - Irrelevant to post - Irrelevant to parent comment - Offensive or violent language - Personal attack - Scientifically inaccurate - Too terse / needs elaboration
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I wonder why nobody else built upon Slashdot's moderation system, which isn't very far from what you suggest here.
      - aww_dang 6y ago
        Agreed. There's more than a few topics where I self censor. It isn't about the points. Most of these things are either beating a dead horse or the quality of the responses aren't worth engaging with. Some are just too contentious. Other times, I just can't resist. It is disconcerting to see the popular or establishment view presented with different standards of evidence, sources or logic. I'd leave "I disagree" as an option in this hypothetical. The down-voting user would have it as a shadow vote, without impacting the comment. For scientifically inaccurate, I think they should be prompted to reply with a refutation. Needs elaboration should just open a reply with "Could you please elaborate on..."
- vonmoltke 6y ago
  > the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree Despite this. both pg and dang have said this is OK. Edit: Actually, I just went over the guidelines in detail (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and there is no mention of appropriate or inappropriate use of the downvote. Where did you see this?
LGNUITLZCJ 6y ago
The current ruling party of Taiwan, the DPP, disagrees with the One China Policy. They see Taiwan as a soveriegn nation whose territory consists solely of Taiwan and surrouding islands. Although there isn't an international agreement on this topic, the DPP sees it this way and they control the executive and legislature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party#Policies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party#P...
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  That is what I mean by "forces seeking to move away from the de jure reality". But the fact is, the DPP hasn't officially made this move. Not yet at least. Anyway, my point is that the person I replied to, said that Taiwan recognizes Beijing. I assert that that's officially not the case. I know, de facto situation is different, but in international relations, and when it comes to international law, the de jure reality matters a lot. Official UN procedures follow the de jure reality, not the de facto one. And this latter is one of the reason why China behaves like a "grammar nazi" on these matters. They have to, if they want to keep the current de jure reality. It's like a company sending tons of cease and desist letters to all people who produce fan content: it's not necessarily because they want to upset fans, but it's because if they fail to enforce, then they lose the trademark.
  - caycep 6y ago
    is part of this due to all the current unofficial policy of "deliberate ambiguity"? If the DPP does officially make a move to state that ROC is Taiwan and a sovereign entity, would that be one condition that might prompt a PLA invasion?
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Yes. PRC has a couple of diplomatic red lines, which have been consistent since 1949, and Taiwanese independence is one of them. It seems that otherwise, unless the US militarily supports Taiwan, the PRC doesn't care whether Taiwan is de facto independent as long as they don't declare so.
mytailorisrich 6y ago
Indeed. There was actually a meeting of the two Presidents (Xi Jinping and Ma Ying-jeou) a few years ago in Singapore. Iirc they carefully avoided those titles and used something like "leader of the mainland" and "leader of Taiwan" instead to go round the issue. Of course the meeting also happened because Ma Ying-jeou is from the KMT so both sides did at least agree that this was a Chinese domestic issue.

ekpyrotic 6y ago

I think it is unfair that FooBarWidget's comment is being downvoted. I have no dog in this fight, but the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree -- but, instead, because it does not add value to the discussion or is not constructive. Just keen to protect HN from downvoting less popular views.

willis936 6y ago
Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of dogs in this specific fight.
dheera 6y ago
> HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree I totally agree with this. Unfortunately HN has gone completely down under now. I get downvoted to oblivion and sometimes even being flagged, every time I say an unpopular opinion, even when I give a full technical explanation to the discussion. I once got downvoted, flagged, and censored out for pointing out un-inclusive language, for example, and another time got downvoted several times for pointing out what I think are very valid privacy issues with Apple's practices. If I were to make a suggestion, HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button. Otherwise this just amounts to censorship of unpopular opinions. And in this case it's going to unfortunately turn into a popularity contest fight of up/down arrows between both sides of the Taiwan issue and frankly speaking that's unproductive. I think westerners who haven't studied that aspect of history really should see the historic facts as well as reasons behind why each side has their view. You don't have to agree with both but it's worthwhile understanding the origins in both viewpoints. UPDATE (9/25 15:14): The downvote army is here again! I personally think I'm contributing to this discussion above, but yet they're still downvoting me.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  >HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button That's an interesting thought. What if there were an optional drop-down menu that allowed down-voters to provide canned feedback? Either way, I think you'd enjoy the discussion more if you worried less about voting. Unless you're selling something, the popularity of the sentiment you're expressing isn't especially relevant.
  - dheera 6y ago
    I'm not super worried about voting per se. If I get downvoted to death and my account banned, I'll have my discussions elsewhere than HN, and I have plenty of venues to have intellectual debate of higher quality than being downvoted and gagged every time I speak an unpopular opinion. I'm still probably far from that based on my current karma, but I've seen a noticable change in the quality of the community in the past year or so. It's just that I think it could be a great platform for controversial intellectual discussions, but the algorithm is designed to promote conformity rather than raising unpopular but well-backed opinions. For example, I've gotten my speech muffled by the algorithm every time I speak out against specific Apple practices, or against the current version of capitalism (not even capitalism as a general idea, which I agree with, just not the current implementation). Somehow saying something against Apple or contemporary American capitalism on HN is just like saying something against the leader in authoritarian regimes; you'll be flagged, beaten (downwvoted), muted, and banned by the community. I definitely like the drop-down idea. "I disagree" would not be one of the options for downvote. Some of the valid options I can think of are: - Irrelevant to post - Irrelevant to parent comment - Offensive or violent language - Personal attack - Scientifically inaccurate - Too terse / needs elaboration
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      I wonder why nobody else built upon Slashdot's moderation system, which isn't very far from what you suggest here.
    - aww_dang 6y ago
      Agreed. There's more than a few topics where I self censor. It isn't about the points. Most of these things are either beating a dead horse or the quality of the responses aren't worth engaging with. Some are just too contentious. Other times, I just can't resist. It is disconcerting to see the popular or establishment view presented with different standards of evidence, sources or logic. I'd leave "I disagree" as an option in this hypothetical. The down-voting user would have it as a shadow vote, without impacting the comment. For scientifically inaccurate, I think they should be prompted to reply with a refutation. Needs elaboration should just open a reply with "Could you please elaborate on..."
vonmoltke 6y ago
> the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree Despite this. both pg and dang have said this is OK. Edit: Actually, I just went over the guidelines in detail (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and there is no mention of appropriate or inappropriate use of the downvote. Where did you see this?

LGNUITLZCJ 6y ago

The current ruling party of Taiwan, the DPP, disagrees with the One China Policy. They see Taiwan as a soveriegn nation whose territory consists solely of Taiwan and surrouding islands. Although there isn't an international agreement on this topic, the DPP sees it this way and they control the executive and legislature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party#Policies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Progressive_Party#P...

FooBarWidget 6y ago
That is what I mean by "forces seeking to move away from the de jure reality". But the fact is, the DPP hasn't officially made this move. Not yet at least. Anyway, my point is that the person I replied to, said that Taiwan recognizes Beijing. I assert that that's officially not the case. I know, de facto situation is different, but in international relations, and when it comes to international law, the de jure reality matters a lot. Official UN procedures follow the de jure reality, not the de facto one. And this latter is one of the reason why China behaves like a "grammar nazi" on these matters. They have to, if they want to keep the current de jure reality. It's like a company sending tons of cease and desist letters to all people who produce fan content: it's not necessarily because they want to upset fans, but it's because if they fail to enforce, then they lose the trademark.
- caycep 6y ago
  is part of this due to all the current unofficial policy of "deliberate ambiguity"? If the DPP does officially make a move to state that ROC is Taiwan and a sovereign entity, would that be one condition that might prompt a PLA invasion?
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Yes. PRC has a couple of diplomatic red lines, which have been consistent since 1949, and Taiwanese independence is one of them. It seems that otherwise, unless the US militarily supports Taiwan, the PRC doesn't care whether Taiwan is de facto independent as long as they don't declare so.

mytailorisrich 6y ago

Indeed. There was actually a meeting of the two Presidents (Xi Jinping and Ma Ying-jeou) a few years ago in Singapore. Iirc they carefully avoided those titles and used something like "leader of the mainland" and "leader of Taiwan" instead to go round the issue. Of course the meeting also happened because Ma Ying-jeou is from the KMT so both sides did at least agree that this was a Chinese domestic issue.