8 ms·

There probably is a pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia, but ironically a big part of that is from China blocking access to the Chinese Wikipedia for most of its exist

by z2 6y ago

There probably is a pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia, but ironically a big part of that is from China blocking access to the Chinese Wikipedia for most of its existence. Who else is left to create the Chinese content?

JdeBP 6y ago
I'd be interested to read a disinterested account of this, but note that the account at hand says that the objection was not about the Chinese (language) Wikipedia but about the activities of Wikimedia Taiwan; not about the electronic encyclopaedia, in other words, but about the association of people. I wonder what the actual objection said.
- RegnisGnaw 6y ago
  If you go by the stance of the Chinese government, there should never be a Wikimedia Taiwan. There is Wikimedia Canada, Wikimedia Deutschland, Wikimedia France, etc. Note they are all countries (France, Germany, Canada). Taiwan is not a country but a rebel province (per the Chinese law). China doesn't like it when other people use the name Taiwan. Maybe they should change it to "China Taipei" EDIT: this is not my opinion, but what I see as reality..
  - _imnothere 6y ago
    Dude, Taiwan(or say R.O.C.) is 100% a country in reality, you can't deny that Taiwan isn't ruled by China. And law from China doesn't apply to Taiwan.
    - actuator 6y ago
      I have always wondered what's the play there. Since they haven't controlled it for so long, what's the harm in recognising that it's a separate nation. Taiwan's most important resource seems like the human resource, which they can reap the benefit of by having friendly relations; there is no need to launch an invasion over that.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        Two reasons. 1. Many Mainland Chinese people have the view that Taiwan is illegally occupied ever since the KMT fled there at the end of the civil war. It's as if the Confederates fled to Puerto Rico or Hawaii, still exist to this day, and claim to be the legitimate ruler of all of the US. Although nowadays fewer people care about this, since China has surpassed Taiwan economically. But it's still a significant portion who cares. So many, that if the CCP lets Taiwan go, CCP's legitimacy will be called into question, and many people will revolt. If it's up to these people, China would have launched an invasion a decade ago. 2. Geographically, Taiwan is a military significant piece of land. The US can set up base there and blockade all China's naval traffic. China wants to prevent this.
        actuator 6y ago
        > China has surpassed Taiwan economically. Per capita basis Taiwan is much better, but overall PRC is a lot more stronger. > So many, that if the CCP lets Taiwan go, many people will revolt. CCP has the gift of being able to control the narrative though, can't they make it seem like a win-win situation for them by doing it as some grand gesture and peace through largesse of their heart. > Geographically, Taiwan is a military significant piece of land. The US can set up base there and blockade all China's naval traffic. While I can see the importance of Taiwan as an opening between Japan and Philippines. Can't an enemy power use Japan, SK and Philippines to still blockade from Pacific. Also, friendly relations with an independent Taiwan might mean it remains in PRC's sphere of influence
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I am not a military expert, but the analyses I've seen suggest that Taiwan is a key piece that makes or breaks the US' "first island chain", which is crucial in containing China. Yes China can control the narrative to some extent, and historically they did. For example all of outer Mongolia was ceded to Russia. If you check Taiwan's official claims, you will see that it's much bigger than the People's Republic of China today. The CCP has a history of ceding land (that is strategically not too valuable) in order to setup peace. I'm guessing that the military significance is the biggest reason why they're not giving up Taiwan.
    - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
      Really? Are they in the Olympics? Do they have a seat in the UN? Are they in the WHO? The World Bank? IMF?
      - actuator 6y ago
        They do participate in Olympics as a separate entity but have to use the name 'Chinese Taipei'
        RegnisGnaw 6y ago
        (taking devil's advocate view, not my own): Perhaps that chapter of Wikimedia should be called Wikimedia China Taipei instead of Wikimedia Taiwan
      - slumpt_ 6y ago
        Many of these things are short-circuited by China leveraging it’s substantial economic power to force the perspective in their favor.
        RegnisGnaw 6y ago
        Which is what exactly China is doing here.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      The word "country" has a specific meaning with legal and diplomatic consequences. The layman definition of a "country" is not sufficient.
      - slumpt_ 6y ago
        It is a country. The only reason it wouldn’t be recognized as such is related to the pressure China puts on other countries to not do so. Much in the same way they pressure other countries to ignore the abuses of Uighurs and Tibetans.
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I am confused about what it is that you're trying to achieve with this attitude. My point is that international law and international relations are at play, and that they matter. If you are so convinced about Taiwan, you really should do two things: 1. Convince the DPP to officially declare independence. Not just unofficially flirting with the idea, but officially still claiming all of China. 2. After 1 has happened, convince UN members to recognize Taiwan. From a legal process point of view, I think 2 cannot happen until 1 is done.
        CameronNemo 6y ago
        I do not believe that the UN is the arbiter of who is and is not a country. And Taiwan should avoid doing anything that might provoke the CCP (like declaring independence without consulting with the CCP first).
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        Perhaps not. But when it comes to UN institutions and their processes, they follow the official UN list of recognized nations. And legally, how do you recognize a country that does not officially recognize itself? The Taiwanese constitution still says it is the Republic of China. The current legal situation is that, by recognizing Taiwan, you are officially saying that the Taiwanese government is the legit ruler of the mainland.
  - gruez 6y ago
    A sibling comment mentioned that theres wikimedia Catalonia. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24589655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24589655
    - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
      I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Its a thematic org not a chapter: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Amical_Wikimedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Amical_Wikimedia It was a lot easier to get chaoter status when wikimedia taiwan did it than it is currently.
  - InfiniteRand 6y ago
    If I recall correctly, at the time Wikimedia Taiwan was added as a "chapter", Wikipedia did not have a clear definition of what type of organizations became community-based affiliate organizations, which is why there are Wikimedia District of Columbia and Wikimedia New York City chapters. I'm not sure if they have any specific restrictions on what types of groups can become chapters now (although I know there are some specific reporting requirements). The current chapters are partly an artifact of which groups were made chapters during a certain period of time and which kept up the reporting requirements. From the look at things there are some potential future chapters which are at the sub-national level: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Chapters_in_discussion_phase https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Chapters_... In terms of affiliated user groups, they allow people to start them with a variety of justifications, from regional groups, cultural focus groups, etc. Here's some more information about affiliate groups: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate...
    - dheera 6y ago
      What if Wikimedia Taiwan had a chapter but that chapter wasn't listed if Wikimedia's website was accessed from a mainland China IP address? Much like Google maps shows different country border delineations depending on where you use it from? Personally the way I see it is that there are multiple simultaneous realities of the situation and if you give each region what they want to see, everyone will be happy.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Because wikimedia doesnt do shit like telling people what they want to hear. If the consequences of that is china blocks our entry to WIPO, so be it. They already block chinese wikipedia which is something the wikimedia movement cares a lot more about than WIPO
        dheera 6y ago
        That's fair, but that also means that Wikimedia is then asserting a political opinion rather than being neutral on the issue. When something is disputed, arguably the most neutral, unbiased way to go about things is to deliver information to each party within the framework that they have established, and technology enables this as a possibility when it used to be cumbersome in the old days. If Wikimedia wants to assert a position on the Taiwan issue, or politically help Taiwan by supporting its majority viewpoint, then great, I completely understand, though I feel like its fundamental mission would be better accomplished if it did not take sides on any political matters and strive to be the most neutral source of facts in the world. For example, there exist certain species of birds native to the island of Taiwan. Wikipedia can be a great source of information about those birds. It doesn't need to define what type of political entity Taiwan is in order to deliver great information about those birds; as far as the birds are concerned it's just a huge island.
  - dwheeler 6y ago
    Wikipedia doesn't require things be at the country level. For example, it has Esperanto: https://eo.wikipedia.org https://eo.wikipedia.org
    - JdeBP 6y ago
      Even though I emphasized the two different things Wikipedia and Wikimedia earlier in this discussion, you are conflating them. Wikipedia is an electronic encyclopaedia, divided up into languages. Wikimedia is the name of the Wikimedia Foundation, and (as long as they adhere to various conditions) the names of various Wikimedia chapters, like Wikimedia Taiwan, and Wikimedia thematic organizations.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Wikimedia is the name of the movement, separate from corporate entities that also share that name.
    - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
      I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Wikimedia cascadia, wikimedia catalonia, both exist....
    - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
      I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
      - bawolff 6y ago
        Technically cascadia is a user group and amical is a thematic org. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate... Generally speaking it was really easy to become a chapter in the old days, but now you have to be a really big org to get chapter status. So newer things are less likely to be chapters
  - justinclift 6y ago
    > this is not my opinion, but what I see as reality.. Er... doesn't "what I see as reality" specifically mean it is an opinion?
    - garmaine 6y ago
      If you go outside and look up and tell me that the sky is blue, is that a fact or opinion?
      - justinclift 6y ago
        Looking out the window at the moment, I'd say "black". So, definitely opinion. ;)
- kunfuu 6y ago
  Another textual account that I find. It still feels incomplete. https://www.keionline.org/33999 https://www.keionline.org/33999 Link to the related webcast. I haven't taken the time to watch it. https://c.connectedviews.com/05/SitePlayer/wipo?session=109586 https://c.connectedviews.com/05/SitePlayer/wipo?session=1095...
  - JdeBP 6y ago
    Thank you. That's much more informative than the Wikimedia Foundation's own version of events. The textual account is incomplete, as there were statements by Iran, Russia, Canada, and Pakistan, and it was China that had the closing remarks, not the United States. It's also not quite an accurate transcript. So: It turns out that China looked up the Wikimedia Foundation on Wikipedia. It compared what Wikipedia said with what was in the Wikimedia Foundation's application documents. The Wikimedia Foundation put 124 user groups, 39 geographic chapters and 2 thematic organizations on its application form. The Chinese delegation to WIPO, deciding to trust Wikipedia in this instance, found that Wikipedia stated that the Wikimedia Foundation had 47 user groups, 41 chapters, and 1 thematic organization. * https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=维基媒体基金会&oldid=61725748#附属机构 https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=维基媒体基金会&oldid=617... So the first prong of the objection was a formal way of saying "Did this organization lie on its application form?". The second prong was a vague complaint against unspecified content violating the One China Policy on "the affiliated Web site of the Foundation". This could be the Foundation wiki; Wikimedia Taiwan's own WWW site (http://wikimedia.tw/); http://wikimedia.tw/); the Chinese-language Wikipedia; the English-language Wikipedia; Meta; or even something else entirely. China didn't actually say. There's some clever chess here. For starters, the Wikimedia Foundation now has to officially state for the record that the Chinese Wikipedia does not provide up-to-date accurate information.
walrus01 6y ago
For domestic Chinese internet users who are inside the great firewall, the authorities intend for people to use this instead, which is censored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu_Baike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu_Baike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baike.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baike.com
- yorwba 6y ago
  There are also https://baike.so.com/ https://baike.so.com/ , https://www.baike.com/ https://www.baike.com/ and probably some others I don't know about. I don't think the authorities care which one people use so long as it complies with "relevant laws and regulations" (i.e. censors content). There doesn't seem to be much user loyalty either; people use whatever their search engine puts first, so baike.baidu.com if you search with Baidu and baike.so.com if you search with so.com.
InfiniteRand 6y ago
Hong Kong, Singapore, and overseas Chinese have a big impact on the Chinese content. Hong Kong even used to have a chapter (now it's a user group, for reporting compliance reasons)
- z2 6y ago
  I actually looked into this after writing the parent post, which was more of a frustrated quip and not grounded in data... Per this 6-years outdated page, in addition to Hong Kong, it seems Mainland China actually overtook Taiwan for edits in 2014, which is doubly surprising considering the ongoing ban and how Wikipedia could possibly tell the true origin if people use web proxies or VPNs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikipedia#Origin_of_edits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikipedia#Origin_of_ed...
actuator 6y ago
Amusingly enough back when I was still active editing on Wikipedia, there was a lot of trouble related to sourcing articles. Because the media in PRC itself is restricted, you have very less sources you can trust. You can't source content from sources like GT but do you trust CGTN, Xinhua? Eventually, you have to because if you don't you would be left with very less coverage and one from a western perspective even if Xinhua probably doesn't have the credibility/reputation of say BBC.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > You can't source content from sources like GT but do you trust CGTN, Xinhua? Interestingly enough, there were some official Wikipedia decisions on that very topic recently: CGTN and Global Times were given the lowest ranking short of being spam-blacklisted, and the consensus was Xinhua can't be trusted as a source where the PRC government would have a conflict of interest, but it can be used for more mundane coverage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Xinhua_News_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#China_Global_Television_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Global_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia Given Taiwan recognizes China but China doesn't recognize Taiwan, a statement of fact--that Taiwan is a de facto sovereign state--would be deemed "pro Taiwan" by Beijing.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Uh, what? Officially, Taiwan is the Republic of China, and claims to be the legitimate government of all of China, and doesn't recognize Beijing. This is a leftover of the civil war between CCP and KMT. The de jure situation is that the civil war is still unfinished. There are forces that want to move away from that de jure reality. But the fact is that that move hasn't happened (yet?). When it comes to de facto, Beijing "recognizes" Taiwan by allowing travel, communication and business. By Korean standards, China and Taiwan are unified.
  - ekpyrotic 6y ago
    I think it is unfair that FooBarWidget's comment is being downvoted. I have no dog in this fight, but the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree -- but, instead, because it does not add value to the discussion or is not constructive. Just keen to protect HN from downvoting less popular views.
    - willis936 6y ago
      Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of dogs in this specific fight.
    - dheera 6y ago
      > HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree I totally agree with this. Unfortunately HN has gone completely down under now. I get downvoted to oblivion and sometimes even being flagged, every time I say an unpopular opinion, even when I give a full technical explanation to the discussion. I once got downvoted, flagged, and censored out for pointing out un-inclusive language, for example, and another time got downvoted several times for pointing out what I think are very valid privacy issues with Apple's practices. If I were to make a suggestion, HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button. Otherwise this just amounts to censorship of unpopular opinions. And in this case it's going to unfortunately turn into a popularity contest fight of up/down arrows between both sides of the Taiwan issue and frankly speaking that's unproductive. I think westerners who haven't studied that aspect of history really should see the historic facts as well as reasons behind why each side has their view. You don't have to agree with both but it's worthwhile understanding the origins in both viewpoints. UPDATE (9/25 15:14): The downvote army is here again! I personally think I'm contributing to this discussion above, but yet they're still downvoting me.
thackerwayac 6y ago
>There probably is a pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia, but ironically a big part of that is from China blocking access to the Chinese Wikipedia >pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia I have previously seen these baseless accusations of Wikipedia and Reddit being pro-Taiwan and pro-India. There are tens of thousands of pro-Chinese Leftists in the US and Europe. Just take a look at r/GenZedong and r/Socialism. They are China's main propaganda arm in the West. They are far more organized and agenda-driven than Taiwanese and Indian Internet users. They have completely taken over Wikipedia and the comment section on reddit. Anything even slightly critical of China's government gets accused of being CIA propaganda.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- philliphaydon 6y ago
  Wait till you find /r/Sino I don’t know why this stuff is allowed to exist.
  - DobryMorozov 6y ago
    Well it's a reaction to r/China which is completely taken over by anti-China posters
- disown 6y ago
  > I have previously seen these baseless accusations of Wikipedia and Reddit being pro-Taiwan and pro-India. It's not that wikipedia and reddit are pro-taiwan and pro-india, it's that pro-taiwan and pro-indian propagandists have recently flooded these sites. Also, youtube. > Just take a look at r/GenZedong and r/Socialism. Have you tried visiting r/china or any other china related sub which are hysterically anti-china? > There are tens of thousands of pro-Chinese Leftists in the US and Europe That's it? A few thousand? > Anything even slightly critical of China's government gets accused of being CIA propaganda. Give me a break. I'm sure there are pro-china groups on social media. But there is a hell of a lot more anti-china groups. Go to most china-related thread on reddit I can guarantee you that the anti-china propagandists outnumber the pro-china propagandists 10-1. You aren't doing yourself and the anti-china propagandists any favors by playing the victim here. Especially when your claims are so obviously false.

by z2 6y ago

JdeBP 6y ago

I'd be interested to read a disinterested account of this, but note that the account at hand says that the objection was not about the Chinese (language) Wikipedia but about the activities of Wikimedia Taiwan; not about the electronic encyclopaedia, in other words, but about the association of people. I wonder what the actual objection said.

RegnisGnaw 6y ago
If you go by the stance of the Chinese government, there should never be a Wikimedia Taiwan. There is Wikimedia Canada, Wikimedia Deutschland, Wikimedia France, etc. Note they are all countries (France, Germany, Canada). Taiwan is not a country but a rebel province (per the Chinese law). China doesn't like it when other people use the name Taiwan. Maybe they should change it to "China Taipei" EDIT: this is not my opinion, but what I see as reality..
- _imnothere 6y ago
  Dude, Taiwan(or say R.O.C.) is 100% a country in reality, you can't deny that Taiwan isn't ruled by China. And law from China doesn't apply to Taiwan.
  - actuator 6y ago
    I have always wondered what's the play there. Since they haven't controlled it for so long, what's the harm in recognising that it's a separate nation. Taiwan's most important resource seems like the human resource, which they can reap the benefit of by having friendly relations; there is no need to launch an invasion over that.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Two reasons. 1. Many Mainland Chinese people have the view that Taiwan is illegally occupied ever since the KMT fled there at the end of the civil war. It's as if the Confederates fled to Puerto Rico or Hawaii, still exist to this day, and claim to be the legitimate ruler of all of the US. Although nowadays fewer people care about this, since China has surpassed Taiwan economically. But it's still a significant portion who cares. So many, that if the CCP lets Taiwan go, CCP's legitimacy will be called into question, and many people will revolt. If it's up to these people, China would have launched an invasion a decade ago. 2. Geographically, Taiwan is a military significant piece of land. The US can set up base there and blockade all China's naval traffic. China wants to prevent this.
      - actuator 6y ago
        > China has surpassed Taiwan economically. Per capita basis Taiwan is much better, but overall PRC is a lot more stronger. > So many, that if the CCP lets Taiwan go, many people will revolt. CCP has the gift of being able to control the narrative though, can't they make it seem like a win-win situation for them by doing it as some grand gesture and peace through largesse of their heart. > Geographically, Taiwan is a military significant piece of land. The US can set up base there and blockade all China's naval traffic. While I can see the importance of Taiwan as an opening between Japan and Philippines. Can't an enemy power use Japan, SK and Philippines to still blockade from Pacific. Also, friendly relations with an independent Taiwan might mean it remains in PRC's sphere of influence
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I am not a military expert, but the analyses I've seen suggest that Taiwan is a key piece that makes or breaks the US' "first island chain", which is crucial in containing China. Yes China can control the narrative to some extent, and historically they did. For example all of outer Mongolia was ceded to Russia. If you check Taiwan's official claims, you will see that it's much bigger than the People's Republic of China today. The CCP has a history of ceding land (that is strategically not too valuable) in order to setup peace. I'm guessing that the military significance is the biggest reason why they're not giving up Taiwan.
  - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
    Really? Are they in the Olympics? Do they have a seat in the UN? Are they in the WHO? The World Bank? IMF?
    - actuator 6y ago
      They do participate in Olympics as a separate entity but have to use the name 'Chinese Taipei'
      - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
        (taking devil's advocate view, not my own): Perhaps that chapter of Wikimedia should be called Wikimedia China Taipei instead of Wikimedia Taiwan
    - slumpt_ 6y ago
      Many of these things are short-circuited by China leveraging it’s substantial economic power to force the perspective in their favor.
      - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
        Which is what exactly China is doing here.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    The word "country" has a specific meaning with legal and diplomatic consequences. The layman definition of a "country" is not sufficient.
    - slumpt_ 6y ago
      It is a country. The only reason it wouldn’t be recognized as such is related to the pressure China puts on other countries to not do so. Much in the same way they pressure other countries to ignore the abuses of Uighurs and Tibetans.
      - FooBarWidget 6y ago
        I am confused about what it is that you're trying to achieve with this attitude. My point is that international law and international relations are at play, and that they matter. If you are so convinced about Taiwan, you really should do two things: 1. Convince the DPP to officially declare independence. Not just unofficially flirting with the idea, but officially still claiming all of China. 2. After 1 has happened, convince UN members to recognize Taiwan. From a legal process point of view, I think 2 cannot happen until 1 is done.
        CameronNemo 6y ago
        I do not believe that the UN is the arbiter of who is and is not a country. And Taiwan should avoid doing anything that might provoke the CCP (like declaring independence without consulting with the CCP first).
        FooBarWidget 6y ago
        Perhaps not. But when it comes to UN institutions and their processes, they follow the official UN list of recognized nations. And legally, how do you recognize a country that does not officially recognize itself? The Taiwanese constitution still says it is the Republic of China. The current legal situation is that, by recognizing Taiwan, you are officially saying that the Taiwanese government is the legit ruler of the mainland.
- gruez 6y ago
  A sibling comment mentioned that theres wikimedia Catalonia. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24589655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24589655
  - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
    I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Its a thematic org not a chapter: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Amical_Wikimedia https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Amical_Wikimedia It was a lot easier to get chaoter status when wikimedia taiwan did it than it is currently.
- InfiniteRand 6y ago
  If I recall correctly, at the time Wikimedia Taiwan was added as a "chapter", Wikipedia did not have a clear definition of what type of organizations became community-based affiliate organizations, which is why there are Wikimedia District of Columbia and Wikimedia New York City chapters. I'm not sure if they have any specific restrictions on what types of groups can become chapters now (although I know there are some specific reporting requirements). The current chapters are partly an artifact of which groups were made chapters during a certain period of time and which kept up the reporting requirements. From the look at things there are some potential future chapters which are at the sub-national level: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Chapters_in_discussion_phase https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Chapters_... In terms of affiliated user groups, they allow people to start them with a variety of justifications, from regional groups, cultural focus groups, etc. Here's some more information about affiliate groups: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate...
  - dheera 6y ago
    What if Wikimedia Taiwan had a chapter but that chapter wasn't listed if Wikimedia's website was accessed from a mainland China IP address? Much like Google maps shows different country border delineations depending on where you use it from? Personally the way I see it is that there are multiple simultaneous realities of the situation and if you give each region what they want to see, everyone will be happy.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Because wikimedia doesnt do shit like telling people what they want to hear. If the consequences of that is china blocks our entry to WIPO, so be it. They already block chinese wikipedia which is something the wikimedia movement cares a lot more about than WIPO
      - dheera 6y ago
        That's fair, but that also means that Wikimedia is then asserting a political opinion rather than being neutral on the issue. When something is disputed, arguably the most neutral, unbiased way to go about things is to deliver information to each party within the framework that they have established, and technology enables this as a possibility when it used to be cumbersome in the old days. If Wikimedia wants to assert a position on the Taiwan issue, or politically help Taiwan by supporting its majority viewpoint, then great, I completely understand, though I feel like its fundamental mission would be better accomplished if it did not take sides on any political matters and strive to be the most neutral source of facts in the world. For example, there exist certain species of birds native to the island of Taiwan. Wikipedia can be a great source of information about those birds. It doesn't need to define what type of political entity Taiwan is in order to deliver great information about those birds; as far as the birds are concerned it's just a huge island.
- dwheeler 6y ago
  Wikipedia doesn't require things be at the country level. For example, it has Esperanto: https://eo.wikipedia.org https://eo.wikipedia.org
  - JdeBP 6y ago
    Even though I emphasized the two different things Wikipedia and Wikimedia earlier in this discussion, you are conflating them. Wikipedia is an electronic encyclopaedia, divided up into languages. Wikimedia is the name of the Wikimedia Foundation, and (as long as they adhere to various conditions) the names of various Wikimedia chapters, like Wikimedia Taiwan, and Wikimedia thematic organizations.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Wikimedia is the name of the movement, separate from corporate entities that also share that name.
  - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
    I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
- bawolff 6y ago
  Wikimedia cascadia, wikimedia catalonia, both exist....
  - RegnisGnaw 6y ago
    I don't see this on their list of Chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters
    - bawolff 6y ago
      Technically cascadia is a user group and amical is a thematic org. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate... Generally speaking it was really easy to become a chapter in the old days, but now you have to be a really big org to get chapter status. So newer things are less likely to be chapters
- justinclift 6y ago
  > this is not my opinion, but what I see as reality.. Er... doesn't "what I see as reality" specifically mean it is an opinion?
  - garmaine 6y ago
    If you go outside and look up and tell me that the sky is blue, is that a fact or opinion?
    - justinclift 6y ago
      Looking out the window at the moment, I'd say "black". So, definitely opinion. ;)
kunfuu 6y ago
Another textual account that I find. It still feels incomplete. https://www.keionline.org/33999 https://www.keionline.org/33999 Link to the related webcast. I haven't taken the time to watch it. https://c.connectedviews.com/05/SitePlayer/wipo?session=109586 https://c.connectedviews.com/05/SitePlayer/wipo?session=1095...
- JdeBP 6y ago
  Thank you. That's much more informative than the Wikimedia Foundation's own version of events. The textual account is incomplete, as there were statements by Iran, Russia, Canada, and Pakistan, and it was China that had the closing remarks, not the United States. It's also not quite an accurate transcript. So: It turns out that China looked up the Wikimedia Foundation on Wikipedia. It compared what Wikipedia said with what was in the Wikimedia Foundation's application documents. The Wikimedia Foundation put 124 user groups, 39 geographic chapters and 2 thematic organizations on its application form. The Chinese delegation to WIPO, deciding to trust Wikipedia in this instance, found that Wikipedia stated that the Wikimedia Foundation had 47 user groups, 41 chapters, and 1 thematic organization. * https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=维基媒体基金会&oldid=61725748#附属机构 https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=维基媒体基金会&oldid=617... So the first prong of the objection was a formal way of saying "Did this organization lie on its application form?". The second prong was a vague complaint against unspecified content violating the One China Policy on "the affiliated Web site of the Foundation". This could be the Foundation wiki; Wikimedia Taiwan's own WWW site (http://wikimedia.tw/); http://wikimedia.tw/); the Chinese-language Wikipedia; the English-language Wikipedia; Meta; or even something else entirely. China didn't actually say. There's some clever chess here. For starters, the Wikimedia Foundation now has to officially state for the record that the Chinese Wikipedia does not provide up-to-date accurate information.

walrus01 6y ago

For domestic Chinese internet users who are inside the great firewall, the authorities intend for people to use this instead, which is censored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu_Baike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baidu_Baike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baike.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baike.com

yorwba 6y ago
There are also https://baike.so.com/ https://baike.so.com/ , https://www.baike.com/ https://www.baike.com/ and probably some others I don't know about. I don't think the authorities care which one people use so long as it complies with "relevant laws and regulations" (i.e. censors content). There doesn't seem to be much user loyalty either; people use whatever their search engine puts first, so baike.baidu.com if you search with Baidu and baike.so.com if you search with so.com.

InfiniteRand 6y ago

Hong Kong, Singapore, and overseas Chinese have a big impact on the Chinese content. Hong Kong even used to have a chapter (now it's a user group, for reporting compliance reasons)

z2 6y ago
I actually looked into this after writing the parent post, which was more of a frustrated quip and not grounded in data... Per this 6-years outdated page, in addition to Hong Kong, it seems Mainland China actually overtook Taiwan for edits in 2014, which is doubly surprising considering the ongoing ban and how Wikipedia could possibly tell the true origin if people use web proxies or VPNs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikipedia#Origin_of_edits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikipedia#Origin_of_ed...

actuator 6y ago

Amusingly enough back when I was still active editing on Wikipedia, there was a lot of trouble related to sourcing articles. Because the media in PRC itself is restricted, you have very less sources you can trust. You can't source content from sources like GT but do you trust CGTN, Xinhua? Eventually, you have to because if you don't you would be left with very less coverage and one from a western perspective even if Xinhua probably doesn't have the credibility/reputation of say BBC.

ardy42 6y ago
> You can't source content from sources like GT but do you trust CGTN, Xinhua? Interestingly enough, there were some official Wikipedia decisions on that very topic recently: CGTN and Global Times were given the lowest ranking short of being spam-blacklisted, and the consensus was Xinhua can't be trusted as a source where the PRC government would have a conflict of interest, but it can be used for more mundane coverage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Xinhua_News_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#China_Global_Television_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Global_Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia Given Taiwan recognizes China but China doesn't recognize Taiwan, a statement of fact--that Taiwan is a de facto sovereign state--would be deemed "pro Taiwan" by Beijing.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Uh, what? Officially, Taiwan is the Republic of China, and claims to be the legitimate government of all of China, and doesn't recognize Beijing. This is a leftover of the civil war between CCP and KMT. The de jure situation is that the civil war is still unfinished. There are forces that want to move away from that de jure reality. But the fact is that that move hasn't happened (yet?). When it comes to de facto, Beijing "recognizes" Taiwan by allowing travel, communication and business. By Korean standards, China and Taiwan are unified.
- ekpyrotic 6y ago
  I think it is unfair that FooBarWidget's comment is being downvoted. I have no dog in this fight, but the HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree -- but, instead, because it does not add value to the discussion or is not constructive. Just keen to protect HN from downvoting less popular views.
  - willis936 6y ago
    Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of dogs in this specific fight.
  - dheera 6y ago
    > HN rules state that you should not downvote a comment only because you disagree I totally agree with this. Unfortunately HN has gone completely down under now. I get downvoted to oblivion and sometimes even being flagged, every time I say an unpopular opinion, even when I give a full technical explanation to the discussion. I once got downvoted, flagged, and censored out for pointing out un-inclusive language, for example, and another time got downvoted several times for pointing out what I think are very valid privacy issues with Apple's practices. If I were to make a suggestion, HN should require a reason to hit the downvote button. Otherwise this just amounts to censorship of unpopular opinions. And in this case it's going to unfortunately turn into a popularity contest fight of up/down arrows between both sides of the Taiwan issue and frankly speaking that's unproductive. I think westerners who haven't studied that aspect of history really should see the historic facts as well as reasons behind why each side has their view. You don't have to agree with both but it's worthwhile understanding the origins in both viewpoints. UPDATE (9/25 15:14): The downvote army is here again! I personally think I'm contributing to this discussion above, but yet they're still downvoting me.

thackerwayac 6y ago

>There probably is a pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia, but ironically a big part of that is from China blocking access to the Chinese Wikipedia >pro Taiwan bias in Wikipedia I have previously seen these baseless accusations of Wikipedia and Reddit being pro-Taiwan and pro-India. There are tens of thousands of pro-Chinese Leftists in the US and Europe. Just take a look at r/GenZedong and r/Socialism. They are China's main propaganda arm in the West. They are far more organized and agenda-driven than Taiwanese and Indian Internet users. They have completely taken over Wikipedia and the comment section on reddit. Anything even slightly critical of China's government gets accused of being CIA propaganda.

deleted 6y ago
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philliphaydon 6y ago
Wait till you find /r/Sino I don’t know why this stuff is allowed to exist.
- DobryMorozov 6y ago
  Well it's a reaction to r/China which is completely taken over by anti-China posters
disown 6y ago
> I have previously seen these baseless accusations of Wikipedia and Reddit being pro-Taiwan and pro-India. It's not that wikipedia and reddit are pro-taiwan and pro-india, it's that pro-taiwan and pro-indian propagandists have recently flooded these sites. Also, youtube. > Just take a look at r/GenZedong and r/Socialism. Have you tried visiting r/china or any other china related sub which are hysterically anti-china? > There are tens of thousands of pro-Chinese Leftists in the US and Europe That's it? A few thousand? > Anything even slightly critical of China's government gets accused of being CIA propaganda. Give me a break. I'm sure there are pro-china groups on social media. But there is a hell of a lot more anti-china groups. Go to most china-related thread on reddit I can guarantee you that the anti-china propagandists outnumber the pro-china propagandists 10-1. You aren't doing yourself and the anti-china propagandists any favors by playing the victim here. Especially when your claims are so obviously false.