5 ms·

Hopefully someone in the field will read this and be able to answer my question: I've spent a lot of time googling research about animal intelligence, and I no

Hopefully someone in the field will read this and be able to answer my question: I've spent a lot of time googling research about animal intelligence, and I now know a bunch of things intelligent animals can do, but I have no idea where their limits are, what they can't do. Everything published uses such... nonflexible tasks. If we're trying to measure general intelligence, why isn't anybody trying to teach corvids, octopi, macaques or dolphins a task that requires building towers of abstraction in their own mind, and then gives them harder and harder "levels"? I know at least octopi can use computer screens, and I know they enjoy hard puzzles that reward them with food, so it should be easy to teach them some computer puzzle game? Say, we could build a four key keyboard that they can use, then teach them Sokoban, starting with extremely simple levels (walk up once to get a snack; walk up twice to get a snack; walk left twice; walk up twice, then down twice; walk up, then back down and right to get beneath the second crate, then up again...) and progressing towards actual Sokoban levels humans find interesting... If they possess general intelligence this system could tell us a lot more about its limits than a series of experiments that each requires building a physical apparatus and spending a bunch of time perfecting it and then teaching it to the animals from zero? Did I miss the answer when googling? Is it that it's common knowledge among researchers that no animal possesses anywhere near enough intelligence to learn Sokoban (or 2048, or any non-real-time puzzle game with simple discrete controls, but I'm pretty sure Sokoban is a near optimal choice) so nobody even tries, nor bothers publishing it (or it's written in the basic textbooks that I didn't bother looking through)? Do researchers in the field lack access to a technologist that could help them build something like Sokoban For Crows? Or is it something else that I don't know I don't know?

sosuke 6y ago
Sounds like you've come up with a cool personal project.
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  I'd like to build it. But having an animal intelligence researcher consulting would be very helpful...
  - codezero 6y ago
    If you look up the researchers working on the stuff you think you might be able to help with - just email them. They may even have some budget to help you out. I've found most scientists to be super open to talking w/ interested parties, and often willing to let you help for free :) Some are busy divas, or busy in general, or also teaching and busy, so it doesn't always work, but there are a lot of folks out there doing research, so just keep shooting!
    - athriren 6y ago
      echoing this. i find typically that academics in highly specialized areas are excited a member of the general public is this enthusiastic about the conceptual problem the academics are working on.
    - gabereiser 6y ago
      Brilliant idea right there. Just reach out and see if any want to get involved to further their own research?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
j_crick 6y ago
Perhaps you might be interested in this project, orthogonal to your question: https://www.hungerforwords.com/ https://www.hungerforwords.com/
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  But there's no grammar at all, at least in the video I watched once :-(
- crowbahr 6y ago
  Orthogonal maybe: but it's still hard to see it as anything other than testing the associative memory of a dog, rather than intelligence. It's a step below problem solving.
patcon 6y ago
This book might be of interest to you: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691145471/the-recursive-mind https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691145471/th...
mike00632 6y ago
It sounds like you're starting off with the assumption that humans are inherently smarter than all other animals and that there are fundamental limitations on other animals' ability to think and you are trying to prove this systematically after other tests/measures (ability to use tools, have language) have failed.
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  No, I really hope to find that some animals can do abstract thinking, and then build the bridges to communicate with them.
codezero 6y ago
I used to work at a university and helped build some code for a few neuroscience experiments to the question of lacking technologists - absolutely yes. They basically work with whoever the computer person is in the team/lab, and rarely budget for that as a specific part of their research because how do you even do that? These people are hyper specialized in their field. This isn't 100% true everywhere, but for the average researcher I think it is true in almost all fields of research. With my Linux knowledge I was able to turn our solar physics lab into a machine that could pump out way more data than it would have being built by a guy who mainly knew FORTRAN and VMS. (Paul if you are reading this, I'm exaggerating, you have a PhD and worked at the SuperComputing center and are a genius, but I hope you retired) Even looking back, I could have done a whole lot more if I knew anything about AWS back then, which I didn't, so I used my budget on bare metal all the time, which was a huge waste of time and resources. I also think there are other issues, because a lot of this research has to have a specific structure, you only get grants for what you propose, and they usually won't give you a ton of money for a wild new idea that's not based on some prior specific precedent. The entire way we advance human knowledge is kind of fucked up but I don't have a better proposal :)
jancsika 6y ago
> I know at least octopi can use computer screens, and I know they enjoy hard puzzles that reward them with food, so it should be easy to teach them some computer puzzle game? I'm not sure it's that easy. For example, suppose a race of hyperintelligent octopuses beam down and decide to study your intelligence. They notice in one test that if you begin scrambling eggs for breakfast and they cut off both your arms at the shoulder, your arms aren't able to finish scrambling the eggs. "My, the intelligence in this species isn't very well-distributed," they and their tentacles agree.
- patcon 6y ago
  > "My, the intelligence in this species isn't very well-distributed," they and their tentacles agree. And then maybe they conspire to orchestrate your firing from that cushy corporate office job. They note that you then go home and start working on your career skills, in hopes of joining another company. "My, the intelligence of this creature is quite distributed," the tentacles and central brain agree, of the corporation. See: https://dague.net/2018/01/09/slow-ai/ https://dague.net/2018/01/09/slow-ai/
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  I mean, they'd be right that my intelligence is not as well distributed as theirs. But that's a specific feature of their intelligence, that's not general intelligence. If an octopus can beat me at Sokoban, I don't care whether it thinks with its brain or its arms, I would like to hire it as a programmer for my startup. If an octopus tries its best to play Sokoban, beats the tutorial but can't figure out the levels with actual puzzles, I won't consider it to possess general intelligence, even if it kicks my ass at say visual perception cognitive tests. (Am I missing your point somehow? I think my answer is relevant but I'm not 100% sure)
  - dboreham 6y ago
    John Searle Octopus Test
    - SonOfLilit 6y ago
everly 6y ago
This isn’t really an answer to your actual question but I’m reminded about the Aesop’s fable about the crow and the pitcher[0]. Humans have been noticing the general intelligence of crows for over 2,500 years! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_and_the_Pitcher https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_and_the_Pitcher
- sobani 6y ago
  @boltefnovor just commented about a related experiment [0] > “Causal understanding of water displacement by a crow” > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04 [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24587342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24587342
filoeleven 6y ago
Definitely a neat idea! Your local cooperative extension service should be able to get you in touch with an animal behavior expert, since they are often affiliated with colleges. Thinking about the project with corvids in mind, I’d suggest two nuances to your protocol. 1. Stick with plain mazes that have no crates in order to train the association with the onscreen character. Basically just spending more time with navigating mazes of increasing complexity before introducing crates at all. Then if they succeed with those, scale the maze complexity back down and add the crate mechanic. 2. Make use of audio. Birds have great eyes, but their natural interaction will be with their beaks, and I’m not sure how easy it is for them to track the onscreen motion while pecking. Using sound to signify “move to empty space” vs “tried to move into a wall” vs “pushed a crate” vs “got snack” could tighten the feedback loop for them and let you see them planning ahead: “I see I have to go ‘up, up, right‘ to get the snack, so I’ll press those buttons without checking the screen each time to confirm.” Might even be good for “move to empty space” to have a unique sound for each direction.
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  Thanks, these are great suggestions, I'll make sure to use them!
m463 6y ago
a vending machine for crows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXjhMzvv4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXjhMzvv4M
petemir 6y ago
Second time in the week I am doing this here, but I recommend you “Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?” By Frans de Waal. Maybe it can nudge you in the right direction.
miltondts 6y ago
Here is a video of pigeons playing "sokoban", "talking" and playing "ping pong": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSvu3mj-14&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSvu3mj-14&feature=youtu.be The main problem mentioned in the video is that pigeons don't come with a repertoire that allows them to do those tasks naturally. So, the researchers have to teach them each of the behaviors independently. The pigeons then manage to put the behaviors together, in what is arguably a display of creativity.
- SonOfLilit 6y ago
  I'll refer to what I assume you called the sokoban example, the "banana test" from part 2, which is the most relevant to our discussion. In it, a pigeon who has been trained that sometimes pushing stuff around is rewarded with food and sometimes climbing stuff is rewarded with food manages to solve a puzzle where it must push a box to below a banana and then climb the box to reach the banana. First of all, thanks, that's a really cool video and exactly the kind of research I'm looking for. However, I don't think it goes far enough to actually measure what I'm interested in. In the comments of this similar video [1] about a crow who has been trained to do each of A, B, C, D separately to get food doing A+B+C+D to get food, a comment captures what's wrong with it perfectly by saying: > 2:20 The "use everything on everything" stage of playing a point-and-click adventure game. Sure, we know birds can figure out that if step 1 is sometimes good and step 2 is sometimes good, then step 1 and then step 2 might be good. But that's not at all enough to solve, say, level 2 in [2], a video of a Sokoban game. If I trained a toddler to solve puzzles like level 1 (so it knows how to walk and it knows how to push crates), if could spend weeks moving and pushing crates around and not reach a solution. The repertoire of behaviors that allows them to play the game is just a foundation for a whole world of logic and planning that needs to be mastered to actually solve nontrivial Sokoban levels. Had I seen a crow solve level 3, I'd believe it is no less intelligent than some of my friends, and that if we put our minds to it, we could find a way to communicate, trade, and help our new corvid friends build a civilization not less sophisticated than our own. Based on that video, I see no reason to believe that about pigeons (yet). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0
Symmetry 6y ago
Well, we can teach animals vocabulary but I'm not aware of any success in teaching grammar where "eat banana" and "banana eat" convey different concepts. People have been trying for a long time without any success that I'm aware of in birds or other primates. What the limits are is very much an area of active research.

sosuke 6y ago

Sounds like you've come up with a cool personal project.

SonOfLilit 6y ago
I'd like to build it. But having an animal intelligence researcher consulting would be very helpful...
- codezero 6y ago
  If you look up the researchers working on the stuff you think you might be able to help with - just email them. They may even have some budget to help you out. I've found most scientists to be super open to talking w/ interested parties, and often willing to let you help for free :) Some are busy divas, or busy in general, or also teaching and busy, so it doesn't always work, but there are a lot of folks out there doing research, so just keep shooting!
  - athriren 6y ago
    echoing this. i find typically that academics in highly specialized areas are excited a member of the general public is this enthusiastic about the conceptual problem the academics are working on.
  - gabereiser 6y ago
    Brilliant idea right there. Just reach out and see if any want to get involved to further their own research?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

j_crick 6y ago

Perhaps you might be interested in this project, orthogonal to your question: https://www.hungerforwords.com/ https://www.hungerforwords.com/

SonOfLilit 6y ago
But there's no grammar at all, at least in the video I watched once :-(
crowbahr 6y ago
Orthogonal maybe: but it's still hard to see it as anything other than testing the associative memory of a dog, rather than intelligence. It's a step below problem solving.

patcon 6y ago

This book might be of interest to you: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691145471/the-recursive-mind https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691145471/th...

mike00632 6y ago

It sounds like you're starting off with the assumption that humans are inherently smarter than all other animals and that there are fundamental limitations on other animals' ability to think and you are trying to prove this systematically after other tests/measures (ability to use tools, have language) have failed.

SonOfLilit 6y ago
No, I really hope to find that some animals can do abstract thinking, and then build the bridges to communicate with them.

codezero 6y ago

I used to work at a university and helped build some code for a few neuroscience experiments to the question of lacking technologists - absolutely yes. They basically work with whoever the computer person is in the team/lab, and rarely budget for that as a specific part of their research because how do you even do that? These people are hyper specialized in their field. This isn't 100% true everywhere, but for the average researcher I think it is true in almost all fields of research. With my Linux knowledge I was able to turn our solar physics lab into a machine that could pump out way more data than it would have being built by a guy who mainly knew FORTRAN and VMS. (Paul if you are reading this, I'm exaggerating, you have a PhD and worked at the SuperComputing center and are a genius, but I hope you retired) Even looking back, I could have done a whole lot more if I knew anything about AWS back then, which I didn't, so I used my budget on bare metal all the time, which was a huge waste of time and resources. I also think there are other issues, because a lot of this research has to have a specific structure, you only get grants for what you propose, and they usually won't give you a ton of money for a wild new idea that's not based on some prior specific precedent. The entire way we advance human knowledge is kind of fucked up but I don't have a better proposal :)

jancsika 6y ago

> I know at least octopi can use computer screens, and I know they enjoy hard puzzles that reward them with food, so it should be easy to teach them some computer puzzle game? I'm not sure it's that easy. For example, suppose a race of hyperintelligent octopuses beam down and decide to study your intelligence. They notice in one test that if you begin scrambling eggs for breakfast and they cut off both your arms at the shoulder, your arms aren't able to finish scrambling the eggs. "My, the intelligence in this species isn't very well-distributed," they and their tentacles agree.

patcon 6y ago
> "My, the intelligence in this species isn't very well-distributed," they and their tentacles agree. And then maybe they conspire to orchestrate your firing from that cushy corporate office job. They note that you then go home and start working on your career skills, in hopes of joining another company. "My, the intelligence of this creature is quite distributed," the tentacles and central brain agree, of the corporation. See: https://dague.net/2018/01/09/slow-ai/ https://dague.net/2018/01/09/slow-ai/
SonOfLilit 6y ago
I mean, they'd be right that my intelligence is not as well distributed as theirs. But that's a specific feature of their intelligence, that's not general intelligence. If an octopus can beat me at Sokoban, I don't care whether it thinks with its brain or its arms, I would like to hire it as a programmer for my startup. If an octopus tries its best to play Sokoban, beats the tutorial but can't figure out the levels with actual puzzles, I won't consider it to possess general intelligence, even if it kicks my ass at say visual perception cognitive tests. (Am I missing your point somehow? I think my answer is relevant but I'm not 100% sure)
- dboreham 6y ago
  John Searle Octopus Test
  - SonOfLilit 6y ago

everly 6y ago

This isn’t really an answer to your actual question but I’m reminded about the Aesop’s fable about the crow and the pitcher[0]. Humans have been noticing the general intelligence of crows for over 2,500 years! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_and_the_Pitcher https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_and_the_Pitcher

sobani 6y ago
@boltefnovor just commented about a related experiment [0] > “Causal understanding of water displacement by a crow” > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZerUbHmuY04 [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24587342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24587342

filoeleven 6y ago

Definitely a neat idea! Your local cooperative extension service should be able to get you in touch with an animal behavior expert, since they are often affiliated with colleges. Thinking about the project with corvids in mind, I’d suggest two nuances to your protocol. 1. Stick with plain mazes that have no crates in order to train the association with the onscreen character. Basically just spending more time with navigating mazes of increasing complexity before introducing crates at all. Then if they succeed with those, scale the maze complexity back down and add the crate mechanic. 2. Make use of audio. Birds have great eyes, but their natural interaction will be with their beaks, and I’m not sure how easy it is for them to track the onscreen motion while pecking. Using sound to signify “move to empty space” vs “tried to move into a wall” vs “pushed a crate” vs “got snack” could tighten the feedback loop for them and let you see them planning ahead: “I see I have to go ‘up, up, right‘ to get the snack, so I’ll press those buttons without checking the screen each time to confirm.” Might even be good for “move to empty space” to have a unique sound for each direction.

SonOfLilit 6y ago
Thanks, these are great suggestions, I'll make sure to use them!

m463 6y ago

a vending machine for crows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXjhMzvv4M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PXjhMzvv4M

petemir 6y ago

Second time in the week I am doing this here, but I recommend you “Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?” By Frans de Waal. Maybe it can nudge you in the right direction.

miltondts 6y ago

Here is a video of pigeons playing "sokoban", "talking" and playing "ping pong": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSvu3mj-14&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSvu3mj-14&feature=youtu.be The main problem mentioned in the video is that pigeons don't come with a repertoire that allows them to do those tasks naturally. So, the researchers have to teach them each of the behaviors independently. The pigeons then manage to put the behaviors together, in what is arguably a display of creativity.

SonOfLilit 6y ago
I'll refer to what I assume you called the sokoban example, the "banana test" from part 2, which is the most relevant to our discussion. In it, a pigeon who has been trained that sometimes pushing stuff around is rewarded with food and sometimes climbing stuff is rewarded with food manages to solve a puzzle where it must push a box to below a banana and then climb the box to reach the banana. First of all, thanks, that's a really cool video and exactly the kind of research I'm looking for. However, I don't think it goes far enough to actually measure what I'm interested in. In the comments of this similar video [1] about a crow who has been trained to do each of A, B, C, D separately to get food doing A+B+C+D to get food, a comment captures what's wrong with it perfectly by saying: > 2:20 The "use everything on everything" stage of playing a point-and-click adventure game. Sure, we know birds can figure out that if step 1 is sometimes good and step 2 is sometimes good, then step 1 and then step 2 might be good. But that's not at all enough to solve, say, level 2 in [2], a video of a Sokoban game. If I trained a toddler to solve puzzles like level 1 (so it knows how to walk and it knows how to push crates), if could spend weeks moving and pushing crates around and not reach a solution. The repertoire of behaviors that allows them to play the game is just a foundation for a whole world of logic and planning that needs to be mastered to actually solve nontrivial Sokoban levels. Had I seen a crow solve level 3, I'd believe it is no less intelligent than some of my friends, and that if we put our minds to it, we could find a way to communicate, trade, and help our new corvid friends build a civilization not less sophisticated than our own. Based on that video, I see no reason to believe that about pigeons (yet). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0

Symmetry 6y ago

Well, we can teach animals vocabulary but I'm not aware of any success in teaching grammar where "eat banana" and "banana eat" convey different concepts. People have been trying for a long time without any success that I'm aware of in birds or other primates. What the limits are is very much an area of active research.