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But it's not gas chambers. What ICE does is not universally seen as morally bad unlike gas chambers. USA doesn't have a totalitarian government either. A good s

But it's not gas chambers. What ICE does is not universally seen as morally bad unlike gas chambers. USA doesn't have a totalitarian government either. A good sanity check is this: if population is split on the issue it means it's not simple and claiming moral high ground is politicizing. Gas chambers are universally seen as morally deplorable. Deporting illegal immigrants isn't.

ryandrake 6y ago
The German population was also split on the Nazi issue. That can't be your litmus test! If holding children in cages, subjecting them to deplorable conditions, separating families, and forcing/denying medical procedures aren't where someone draws the line, then... well... I don't really want to know where they draw the line.
- bluecalm 6y ago
  Well it must be a litmus test for the universal moral judgement because otherwise it's not universal by definition. I would argue that German population didn't have as much information as we do today and gas chambers as well as other atrocities committed by the Nazis would still be universally rejected then. As to "separating families" and "denying medical procedures" you seem to think it's somehow a God given right to come somewhere and be granted resources and time of others. In many people view it's not. The blame is on the immigrants and their countries not on US. The policy is clear: you can't come without having permission. It's entirely reasonable to not want to give resources to people who are not part of your group, didn't contribute to development of your country, don't help to fund your services and are actively breaking your rules in your own country. It's a difficult situation when someone comes anyway and with small children as well but the blame is not on ICE or your policies. Medical procedures don't grow on trees. Granting them means taking time and resources of others. It means someone will have less time for their families/personal life, that someone else will have to work more to get treatment or in some cases won't get treatment at all or get it later. You can't just hand stuff to all comers or then your policy is meaningless. It also means millions of others who want to immigrate to US legally but respect the procedure will wait for longer or never get in. There are many, many people in the world in a very shitty situation who would love to come to US if given a chance. Knowing that but letting in those who force their way is at best morally suspect. It's nothing like actively pursuing people who live in your society, packing them on trains and killing them in camps. That's why one is universally seen as morally deplorable and the other is a hotly debated issue.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    You're missing a couple key points here. The constitution treats all people as embued with human rights. If they're on American soil, they've got rights. So sure, tearing up the constitution is hotly contested. Right now, ICE is shitting all over the constitution and I don't like that one bit. Second, many detainees are asylum seekers. The us has policies and processes by which people can lawfully seek asylum in the US. And they're being subject to inhumane treatments that we don't even tolerate in prisons.

ryandrake 6y ago

The German population was also split on the Nazi issue. That can't be your litmus test! If holding children in cages, subjecting them to deplorable conditions, separating families, and forcing/denying medical procedures aren't where someone draws the line, then... well... I don't really want to know where they draw the line.

bluecalm 6y ago
Well it must be a litmus test for the universal moral judgement because otherwise it's not universal by definition. I would argue that German population didn't have as much information as we do today and gas chambers as well as other atrocities committed by the Nazis would still be universally rejected then. As to "separating families" and "denying medical procedures" you seem to think it's somehow a God given right to come somewhere and be granted resources and time of others. In many people view it's not. The blame is on the immigrants and their countries not on US. The policy is clear: you can't come without having permission. It's entirely reasonable to not want to give resources to people who are not part of your group, didn't contribute to development of your country, don't help to fund your services and are actively breaking your rules in your own country. It's a difficult situation when someone comes anyway and with small children as well but the blame is not on ICE or your policies. Medical procedures don't grow on trees. Granting them means taking time and resources of others. It means someone will have less time for their families/personal life, that someone else will have to work more to get treatment or in some cases won't get treatment at all or get it later. You can't just hand stuff to all comers or then your policy is meaningless. It also means millions of others who want to immigrate to US legally but respect the procedure will wait for longer or never get in. There are many, many people in the world in a very shitty situation who would love to come to US if given a chance. Knowing that but letting in those who force their way is at best morally suspect. It's nothing like actively pursuing people who live in your society, packing them on trains and killing them in camps. That's why one is universally seen as morally deplorable and the other is a hotly debated issue.
- klyrs 6y ago
  You're missing a couple key points here. The constitution treats all people as embued with human rights. If they're on American soil, they've got rights. So sure, tearing up the constitution is hotly contested. Right now, ICE is shitting all over the constitution and I don't like that one bit. Second, many detainees are asylum seekers. The us has policies and processes by which people can lawfully seek asylum in the US. And they're being subject to inhumane treatments that we don't even tolerate in prisons.