9 ms·

Hootsuite CEO terminating contract with ICE

107 points by bdcravens 6y ago

tuna-piano 6y ago
I actually think that it's totally legitimate to call out whoever you want (employer, customer, vendor, friend, family, etc) when you believe there is a clearly and grossly immoral action being carried out. But when there's a "I can see both sides but I strongly feel x because y" you should leave your political beliefs to your non-business relationships. Reasonable people can disagree on immigration laws generally or ICE specifically! And I'm disappointed to see the level of confidence people have that anyone who disagrees with them is evil. I wonder how people feel about immigration laws in other countries. Would Hootsuite employees be mad about working with the Thai department of immigration? Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws?
- nickff 6y ago
  Canada has a history of being more restrictive and less forgiving of 'permissionless entry' than the USA, so it will be interesting to see how Hootsuite transacts with the Canadian government.
  - spoopyskelly 6y ago
    Canada is OK with the Twitter folks because PM Blackface has good optics.
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  The impression I've gotten is that while some people have coarse/simple views of how some of these things are bad. The main focus is not on them as institutions so much as how they treat those in their custody. Enforcement doesn't need to be abusive.
- Pils 6y ago
  >Is it really immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I think you are letting your subjective moral lens cloud your judgement. The fact of the matter is certain immigration policies and directives are more effective and have lower political and social costs than other ones. A utilitarian immigration policy framework would perform significantly better than the current "border" rhetoric which has led to billion dollar make-work in the middle of nowhere.
  - tuna-piano 6y ago
    I don't understand what "utilitarian immigration policy framework" means, but in any case policies are made by congress not by ICE. In fact it would be quite undemocratic for ICE to decide universally they aren't going to enforce the laws that congress made.
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  > Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring. I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, separate them from their children, and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. All of those things would appear to violate Federal and International law, on top of being the wrong thing to do.
  - nickff 6y ago
    >"I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring." Open borders are quite a popular policy among libertarians, though perhaps that just goes to show how far libertarians are from the 'mainstream' of democrats and republicans.[1][2][3] [1] https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ [2] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-caplan-interview-gdp-double https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-cap... [3] https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders
    - tuna-piano 6y ago
      Open borders and free trade share a lot of economic characteristics. Why should the US only get the benefits of foreign labor only while that labor is outside of the country? Crime is one reason. Immigrants from different backgrounds, countries, etc have different propensities to commit crimes. Inequality of negative effects is another reason. If we allow in unlimited hair cutters - of course the wage for hair cutters in the US may decline.
  - tuna-piano 6y ago
    I'm going to put alternative arguments below to try and show there is a reasonable discussion to be had on this topic. My actual views are more complex. >I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, aka jails. Places for those who committed crimes and who are awaiting procedures for removal. What would you suggest instead? It's worth noting they allow many out into the country with electronic monitoring. The US also allows refugees to stay and has (imperfect, but mostly fair) legal procedures for removal. >separate them from their children, A now ended policy that is the same as for people in jail for any other non-immigration crime. Of course immigration crimes are both non-violent and where economic harm is diffused (if it even exists), which is why people feel sympathy for these families. >and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. Which would be improper. The recent case of the OBGYN doctor is both unproven and if proven would lead to imprisonment and universal condemnation. The truth is that thousands of immigrants come here illegally with nothing and get world class medical treatment for no charge. Any cases where that doesn't happen are news because they are exceptions, not the rule.
- cwkoss 6y ago
  If the Thai department of immigration was separating children from the families, locking them in cages in dangerous conditions and forcing hysterectomies on women in their custody... I'd sure hope so
  - e9 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_... https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacific/thailand https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacifi... https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangkoks-notorious-idc/87104 https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangk...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kenforthewin 6y ago
This highlights the power and voice that individuals in a company have to hold leadership accountable and make more ethical decisions. Well done.
- newfriend 6y ago
  There's nothing unethical about wanting to keep illegal aliens out of your country.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    There may be unethical aspects of how you go about doing it. For example: https://www.texastribune.org/2020/09/15/ice-deport-witness-sexual-assault/ https://www.texastribune.org/2020/09/15/ice-deport-witness-s...
    - refurb 6y ago
      "allegations"
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        If you accuse me of something, and I start frantically hiding the evidence, that's probably not a great sign.
  - Aloha 6y ago
    Strong Borders doesnt mean children in cages.
    - Simulacra 6y ago
      Tell that to the last President.
      - ssully 6y ago
        That isn't as good of a rebuttal as you think it is.
neilk 6y ago
Some context (edits for completeness & accuracy). If I understand the situation correctly, Hootsuite employees had been agitating against ICE contracts. As recently as yesterday, using very careful language, a Hootsuite spokesperson denied they had a contract with ICE. A Hootsuite employee blew the whistle on this contract, on Twitter, yesterday. (See comment to my post below.) This morning, an entrepreneur/activist in this space linked to documents showing that Hootsuite had sold licenses to ICE via an intermediary. https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1309146080962113538 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1309146080962113538 The contract is right here, search the page for "hootsuite". https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_70CTD020FR0000270_7012_HSHQDC13D00017_7001 https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_70CTD020FR0000270... More context from Business in Vancouver: https://biv.com/article/2020/09/hootsuite-denies-us-ice-partnership-amid-twitter-uproar https://biv.com/article/2020/09/hootsuite-denies-us-ice-part...
- cldellow 6y ago
  It was first reported by a Hootsuite employee who has been with the company for 5 years: https://twitter.com/samelaanderson/status/1308917007438483457 https://twitter.com/samelaanderson/status/130891700743848345...
  - randompwd 6y ago
    Ah yes - a Vancouver BC based person whose twitter name is "Sam | abolish the police". A rational & valuable person no doubt.
    - neilk 6y ago
      I think this comment could have been more substantive. It appears that you’re trying to say that the opinions and knowledge of a 5-year employee can be dismissed without any consideration, due to these signs. Is it the rational position to dismiss people out of hand? By the way, it may interest you to know that Hootsuite is a Vancouver-based company.
      - 6y ago
johnnyfaehell 6y ago
I remember that the financial side of ICE wanted to break away from ICE because the hate the immigration side generates. I was reading that it was actually preventing them from taking down bankers (Or someone else that I specifically don't like, but I hate bankers the most) because people who would normally help them stopped helping after the changes Trump made.
throwawaysea 6y ago
A shame. ICE is simply enforcing immigration laws, which are part of our justice system. Employees should leave their politics at home instead of corrupting the workplace with their personal opinions. Companies shouldn’t pick and choose customers based on ideology and political biases. Companies that do so don’t deserve any customers, as they cannot be trusted to provide stable service if they’re subject to the whims of their employees.
- msie 6y ago
  "I was only following orders..."
- mehlmao 6y ago
  Where is involuntary sterilization written into the law?
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    Wasn't the whole "involuntary sterilization" thing a single woman who had her uterus removed as treatment for cancer? Yes, arguably the doctor should have tried to remove a smaller section of that uterus... But it's not obviously the wrong call from the information I remember. Had the woman in question not been given surgery, we'd be having a similar discussion about ICE not providing appropriate medical care...
    - neilk 6y ago
      I don't see a particular number cited, but a whistleblower alleges that it occurred so often, a particular doctor was known as "the uterus collector". (Her complaint is largely about failure to follow proper procedures for COVID, and this "uterus collector" thing is not the bulk of her story. Obviously that's a pretty explosive allegation though.) https://www.democracynow.org/2020/9/22/dawn_wooten_ice_forced_sterilization https://www.democracynow.org/2020/9/22/dawn_wooten_ice_force...
    - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
      No, it was dozens, potentially hundreds.
donedealomg 6y ago
Yes imagine working for an organisation that upholds the democraticly voted laws in a country /s What a bunch of idiots people are
hiimtroymclure 6y ago
Now the company has taken a political stance that likely doesn't represent the entire view of all its employees. No doubt this is talked about in all the slack channels leaving many to be alienated. The ask for politics to be left out X these days seems to be impossible. Will only lead to more division and hatred between people with different ideologies.
- jrowley 6y ago
  If employees are feeling like their values are no longer in alignment with the company they can leave. ICE is hiring.
  - hiimtroymclure 6y ago
    quite a privileged response for someone who has very in demand skills
    - jrowley 6y ago
      If you are fortunate enough to have privilege, you should exercise it to make the world a better place. That might mean attempting to change a company from the inside, or that might mean leaving them and not supporting them. And then once you leave, you still have to look for places to exercise your privilege to make the world a better place.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Yeah, politics gets in everywhere and seems impossible to avoid it. Even if you purposefully avoid it, you're making a political statement. On one hand, what does it mean to have a "no politics at work" policy? If Hootsuite have contracts with ICE, it's already political at that point, as they are helping the organization be more efficient/valuable/whatever. If they don't take any contracts that might be political, they won't be able to do any business at all. On the other hand, for-profit companies goal is to get profits. If they prioritize political stances in-front of that, they are bound to confuse people who are working there, who understands it's a business, not a political/non-profit organization.
TheDesolate0 6y ago
Got caught lying, I see.
ecommerceguy 6y ago
If Hootsuite is bringing politics into their decision matrix, I will take them out of our communications stack. Canceled.
- lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
  It became political when they took the contract in the first place.
reaperducer 6y ago
Not as ballsy as it sounds, considering that Hootsuite is a Canadian company, not an American company. When Hootsuite locks out the RCMP, I'll be impressed.
howmayiannoyyou 6y ago
Anyone who understands this issue, really understands it, knows: 1. Congress can act tomorrow and improve immigration process/treatment. They won't because politics. 2. Foreign actors have and continue to use immigration as a weapon, against the US and against the immigrants themselves. 3. Walls work. They are far from perfect and far better than nothing. 4. Immigration is actually critical US economic health. The country needs more immigrants. A combination of political manipulation, orange-man bad, and wishful thinking has turned this issue on its head; and its a corollary to the larger problem of division in this country and both sides unwillingness to build bridges with each other. Not sure how we survive if we cannot come together in spite of our strongly held differences.
- kypro 6y ago
  > 4. Immigration is actually critical US economic health. The country needs more immigrants. This is true in some ways and false in so many others that I hate when people say this. I can't speak directly to the USA, but I can only assume it's similar to the situation we have in the UK. Here it's true that certain demographics of immigrants are a net-positive to the UK economy. Specifically, Indian and EEA migrants are very beneficial. However this doesn't mean the vast majority of immigrants are beneficial to the UK economy. Many immigrant groups contribute less in taxes which creates a fiscal deficit which other groups need to pick up. For example, as a group non-EEA migrants added £9bn to the deficit in 2016/17. [1] Because the data is clear that non-EEA migrants are a net-negative to UK tax payers you'll often see economists and reporters try to justify non-EEA immigration by reporting the benefits in terms of GDP. To the average, economically uninformed person it sounds great that non-EEA immigrants raise GDP, but it's obviously the wrong metric to use unless you aspire to have an economy like Chinas or Indias where sheer population size makes up for low per capita GDP. And this isn't even considering all the negative effects mass-migration has on communities here in the UK or the increased job competition seen by lower skilled workers. I have an elderly relative who no longer recognises the community he grew up in. He's lived in the same tower block for over 40 years and when he moved in almost everyone was British. Today he may be the only British person left. None of his neighbours celebrates Christmas. The notices and signs in the tower block are written in Arabic. The shops in his area feature Arabic signage and sell foreign produce... While I don't have a problem with any individual culture in the UK, I am sceptical that this kind of cultural transformation which is occurring in many parts of the UK (and US) today is in the interest of the average Brit or American. So to be clear, the US & UK don't need more immigrants. What we need is more of the right kind of immigrants. We need people who want to work and integrate into our communities. We want people with skills who are able to pay more in taxes than they take out. However, the conversation around immigration has become so black and white that it's impossible to argue for sanity. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/741926/Final_EEA_report.PDF https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
alottafunchata 6y ago
wow. so brave.
jbeard4 6y ago
If only GitHub would do the same: https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0 https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0 https://github.com/selfagency/microsoft-drop-ice https://github.com/selfagency/microsoft-drop-ice
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  GitHub is too busy making empty gestures (like renaming the master branch and black/white lists) to do anything substantive that would affect their income.
Simulacra 6y ago
Eventually if no private company can be found, they'll just end up doing it themselves. At least with a private company in the mix, some accountability can be had.
joeloya 6y ago
Should every company stop doing business with the US Government? After all they are ultimately responsible for all the human rights violations. Activists employees imposing "do not sell/service to people I don't agree with" is a very dangerous precedent. Before you say this isn't politics but a human rights issue, ask yourself: Does the other side thinks the same? If not, it definitely is a political issue.
- wrsh07 6y ago
  I'm curious why you think it's a problem to refuse service to customers you think behave unethically That is within their right, why is it bad? Are you making a slippery slope argument? Separately, I do think that the current polarization is very concerning, and I don't know how to mitigate it.
buzzert 6y ago
Why does ICE need a contract with a social media company? And a foreign one at that?
- kube-system 6y ago
  To post tweets, presumably.
scott31 6y ago
Oh, virtue signalling, my favourite.
MattGrommes 6y ago
Most people's problem with ICE is not that it's enforcing the laws about immigration, it's how it's doing it. Do some research about the actual behavior of the organization, there are plenty of stories of unethical and illegal behavior in their pursuit of immigrants. I live in an area with a lot of southeast Indian families and the stories I've heard first-hand about how ICE agents treat them is atrocious.
sergiotapia 6y ago
Blows my mind every time how this country has uniquely been able to brainwash their citizens into _not_ wanting border control. Can I just YOLO into Japan because its "humane", lol probably not. They will ship me out ASAP.
vikramkr 6y ago
I'm surprised by the level of discussion around whether or not this is "justified." The purpose of a corporation is to maximize the utility function of its stakeholders. That doesn't have to be profit, and political/social justification isn't a necessary component of utility, but it is a valid one. If you found a company and are willing to make less money to have a more leisurely lifestyle with less day to day work, your utility function is not maximized if you take on more contracts to try and make more money. In Hootsuite, employees felt that working with ICE was not what they wanted, and they had the necessary market power and influence as stakeholders in the organization to change the organization's behavior. Why would a company be obligated to serve a foreign country's government agency? You shouldn't need to 'justify" your utility function by applying somebody else's normative standard. They don't want to serve ICE, so they don't. Companies should have the right to refuse service to customers they don't want to serve, and the barrier to entry to found competing companies to serve those customers should be low. The company created a product that ICE wants, they built the power to serve the government agency, and they should have the right to exercise it as they see fit. It would be different if they were a utility granted a monopoly by the state, in which case there should be significant regulations and oversight because it's not a new service they created. Basically, what I'm saying is, if you think that ICE should be able to get the services Hootsuite provides, then go ahead and start (or invest in) a competitor that will service ICE. We have a (reasonably) free market - use it.

107 points by bdcravens 6y ago

I actually think that it's totally legitimate to call out whoever you want (employer, customer, vendor, friend, family, etc) when you believe there is a clearly and grossly immoral action being carried out. But when there's a "I can see both sides but I strongly feel x because y" you should leave your political beliefs to your non-business relationships. Reasonable people can disagree on immigration laws generally or ICE specifically! And I'm disappointed to see the level of confidence people have that anyone who disagrees with them is evil. I wonder how people feel about immigration laws in other countries. Would Hootsuite employees be mad about working with the Thai department of immigration? Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws?

nickff 6y ago
Canada has a history of being more restrictive and less forgiving of 'permissionless entry' than the USA, so it will be interesting to see how Hootsuite transacts with the Canadian government.
- spoopyskelly 6y ago
  Canada is OK with the Twitter folks because PM Blackface has good optics.
therealdrag0 6y ago
The impression I've gotten is that while some people have coarse/simple views of how some of these things are bad. The main focus is not on them as institutions so much as how they treat those in their custody. Enforcement doesn't need to be abusive.
Pils 6y ago
>Is it really immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I think you are letting your subjective moral lens cloud your judgement. The fact of the matter is certain immigration policies and directives are more effective and have lower political and social costs than other ones. A utilitarian immigration policy framework would perform significantly better than the current "border" rhetoric which has led to billion dollar make-work in the middle of nowhere.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  I don't understand what "utilitarian immigration policy framework" means, but in any case policies are made by congress not by ICE. In fact it would be quite undemocratic for ICE to decide universally they aren't going to enforce the laws that congress made.
arrosenberg 6y ago
> Is it really grossly immoral to have immigration checkpoints, borders and laws... and corresponding enforcement of those laws? I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring. I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, separate them from their children, and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. All of those things would appear to violate Federal and International law, on top of being the wrong thing to do.
- nickff 6y ago
  >"I don't think many people, of any political affiliation, are making an argument for open borders — that's a red herring." Open borders are quite a popular policy among libertarians, though perhaps that just goes to show how far libertarians are from the 'mainstream' of democrats and republicans.[1][2][3] [1] https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ https://reason.com/tag/open-borders/ [2] https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-caplan-interview-gdp-double https://www.vox.com/2014/9/13/6135905/open-borders-bryan-cap... [3] https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders https://www.hoover.org/research/graphic-case-open-borders
  - tuna-piano 6y ago
    Open borders and free trade share a lot of economic characteristics. Why should the US only get the benefits of foreign labor only while that labor is outside of the country? Crime is one reason. Immigrants from different backgrounds, countries, etc have different propensities to commit crimes. Inequality of negative effects is another reason. If we allow in unlimited hair cutters - of course the wage for hair cutters in the US may decline.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  I'm going to put alternative arguments below to try and show there is a reasonable discussion to be had on this topic. My actual views are more complex. >I do think it is grossly immoral to detain and intern immigrants at the border indefinitely, house them in substandard living facilities, aka jails. Places for those who committed crimes and who are awaiting procedures for removal. What would you suggest instead? It's worth noting they allow many out into the country with electronic monitoring. The US also allows refugees to stay and has (imperfect, but mostly fair) legal procedures for removal. >separate them from their children, A now ended policy that is the same as for people in jail for any other non-immigration crime. Of course immigration crimes are both non-violent and where economic harm is diffused (if it even exists), which is why people feel sympathy for these families. >and both refuse and force (in different instances) medical treatment without consent. Which would be improper. The recent case of the OBGYN doctor is both unproven and if proven would lead to imprisonment and universal condemnation. The truth is that thousands of immigrants come here illegally with nothing and get world class medical treatment for no charge. Any cases where that doesn't happen are news because they are exceptions, not the rule.
cwkoss 6y ago
If the Thai department of immigration was separating children from the families, locking them in cages in dangerous conditions and forcing hysterectomies on women in their custody... I'd sure hope so
- e9 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_refugee_children_... https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacific/thailand https://www.globaldetentionproject.org/countries/asia-pacifi... https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangkoks-notorious-idc/87104 https://www.ucanews.com/news/caged-like-animals-inside-bangk...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kenforthewin 6y ago

This highlights the power and voice that individuals in a company have to hold leadership accountable and make more ethical decisions. Well done.

newfriend 6y ago
There's nothing unethical about wanting to keep illegal aliens out of your country.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  There may be unethical aspects of how you go about doing it. For example: https://www.texastribune.org/2020/09/15/ice-deport-witness-sexual-assault/ https://www.texastribune.org/2020/09/15/ice-deport-witness-s...
  - refurb 6y ago
    "allegations"
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      If you accuse me of something, and I start frantically hiding the evidence, that's probably not a great sign.
- Aloha 6y ago
  Strong Borders doesnt mean children in cages.
  - Simulacra 6y ago
    Tell that to the last President.
    - ssully 6y ago
      That isn't as good of a rebuttal as you think it is.

neilk 6y ago

Some context (edits for completeness & accuracy). If I understand the situation correctly, Hootsuite employees had been agitating against ICE contracts. As recently as yesterday, using very careful language, a Hootsuite spokesperson denied they had a contract with ICE. A Hootsuite employee blew the whistle on this contract, on Twitter, yesterday. (See comment to my post below.) This morning, an entrepreneur/activist in this space linked to documents showing that Hootsuite had sold licenses to ICE via an intermediary. https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1309146080962113538 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1309146080962113538 The contract is right here, search the page for "hootsuite". https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_70CTD020FR0000270_7012_HSHQDC13D00017_7001 https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_70CTD020FR0000270... More context from Business in Vancouver: https://biv.com/article/2020/09/hootsuite-denies-us-ice-partnership-amid-twitter-uproar https://biv.com/article/2020/09/hootsuite-denies-us-ice-part...

cldellow 6y ago
It was first reported by a Hootsuite employee who has been with the company for 5 years: https://twitter.com/samelaanderson/status/1308917007438483457 https://twitter.com/samelaanderson/status/130891700743848345...
- randompwd 6y ago
  Ah yes - a Vancouver BC based person whose twitter name is "Sam | abolish the police". A rational & valuable person no doubt.
  - neilk 6y ago
    I think this comment could have been more substantive. It appears that you’re trying to say that the opinions and knowledge of a 5-year employee can be dismissed without any consideration, due to these signs. Is it the rational position to dismiss people out of hand? By the way, it may interest you to know that Hootsuite is a Vancouver-based company.
    - 6y ago

johnnyfaehell 6y ago

I remember that the financial side of ICE wanted to break away from ICE because the hate the immigration side generates. I was reading that it was actually preventing them from taking down bankers (Or someone else that I specifically don't like, but I hate bankers the most) because people who would normally help them stopped helping after the changes Trump made.

throwawaysea 6y ago

A shame. ICE is simply enforcing immigration laws, which are part of our justice system. Employees should leave their politics at home instead of corrupting the workplace with their personal opinions. Companies shouldn’t pick and choose customers based on ideology and political biases. Companies that do so don’t deserve any customers, as they cannot be trusted to provide stable service if they’re subject to the whims of their employees.

msie 6y ago
"I was only following orders..."
mehlmao 6y ago
Where is involuntary sterilization written into the law?
- DuskStar 6y ago
  Wasn't the whole "involuntary sterilization" thing a single woman who had her uterus removed as treatment for cancer? Yes, arguably the doctor should have tried to remove a smaller section of that uterus... But it's not obviously the wrong call from the information I remember. Had the woman in question not been given surgery, we'd be having a similar discussion about ICE not providing appropriate medical care...
  - neilk 6y ago
    I don't see a particular number cited, but a whistleblower alleges that it occurred so often, a particular doctor was known as "the uterus collector". (Her complaint is largely about failure to follow proper procedures for COVID, and this "uterus collector" thing is not the bulk of her story. Obviously that's a pretty explosive allegation though.) https://www.democracynow.org/2020/9/22/dawn_wooten_ice_forced_sterilization https://www.democracynow.org/2020/9/22/dawn_wooten_ice_force...
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    No, it was dozens, potentially hundreds.

donedealomg 6y ago

Yes imagine working for an organisation that upholds the democraticly voted laws in a country /s What a bunch of idiots people are

hiimtroymclure 6y ago

Now the company has taken a political stance that likely doesn't represent the entire view of all its employees. No doubt this is talked about in all the slack channels leaving many to be alienated. The ask for politics to be left out X these days seems to be impossible. Will only lead to more division and hatred between people with different ideologies.

jrowley 6y ago
If employees are feeling like their values are no longer in alignment with the company they can leave. ICE is hiring.
- hiimtroymclure 6y ago
  quite a privileged response for someone who has very in demand skills
  - jrowley 6y ago
    If you are fortunate enough to have privilege, you should exercise it to make the world a better place. That might mean attempting to change a company from the inside, or that might mean leaving them and not supporting them. And then once you leave, you still have to look for places to exercise your privilege to make the world a better place.
capableweb 6y ago
Yeah, politics gets in everywhere and seems impossible to avoid it. Even if you purposefully avoid it, you're making a political statement. On one hand, what does it mean to have a "no politics at work" policy? If Hootsuite have contracts with ICE, it's already political at that point, as they are helping the organization be more efficient/valuable/whatever. If they don't take any contracts that might be political, they won't be able to do any business at all. On the other hand, for-profit companies goal is to get profits. If they prioritize political stances in-front of that, they are bound to confuse people who are working there, who understands it's a business, not a political/non-profit organization.

TheDesolate0 6y ago

Got caught lying, I see.

ecommerceguy 6y ago

If Hootsuite is bringing politics into their decision matrix, I will take them out of our communications stack. Canceled.

lame-robot-hoax 6y ago
It became political when they took the contract in the first place.

reaperducer 6y ago

Not as ballsy as it sounds, considering that Hootsuite is a Canadian company, not an American company. When Hootsuite locks out the RCMP, I'll be impressed.

howmayiannoyyou 6y ago

Anyone who understands this issue, really understands it, knows: 1. Congress can act tomorrow and improve immigration process/treatment. They won't because politics. 2. Foreign actors have and continue to use immigration as a weapon, against the US and against the immigrants themselves. 3. Walls work. They are far from perfect and far better than nothing. 4. Immigration is actually critical US economic health. The country needs more immigrants. A combination of political manipulation, orange-man bad, and wishful thinking has turned this issue on its head; and its a corollary to the larger problem of division in this country and both sides unwillingness to build bridges with each other. Not sure how we survive if we cannot come together in spite of our strongly held differences.

kypro 6y ago
> 4. Immigration is actually critical US economic health. The country needs more immigrants. This is true in some ways and false in so many others that I hate when people say this. I can't speak directly to the USA, but I can only assume it's similar to the situation we have in the UK. Here it's true that certain demographics of immigrants are a net-positive to the UK economy. Specifically, Indian and EEA migrants are very beneficial. However this doesn't mean the vast majority of immigrants are beneficial to the UK economy. Many immigrant groups contribute less in taxes which creates a fiscal deficit which other groups need to pick up. For example, as a group non-EEA migrants added £9bn to the deficit in 2016/17. [1] Because the data is clear that non-EEA migrants are a net-negative to UK tax payers you'll often see economists and reporters try to justify non-EEA immigration by reporting the benefits in terms of GDP. To the average, economically uninformed person it sounds great that non-EEA immigrants raise GDP, but it's obviously the wrong metric to use unless you aspire to have an economy like Chinas or Indias where sheer population size makes up for low per capita GDP. And this isn't even considering all the negative effects mass-migration has on communities here in the UK or the increased job competition seen by lower skilled workers. I have an elderly relative who no longer recognises the community he grew up in. He's lived in the same tower block for over 40 years and when he moved in almost everyone was British. Today he may be the only British person left. None of his neighbours celebrates Christmas. The notices and signs in the tower block are written in Arabic. The shops in his area feature Arabic signage and sell foreign produce... While I don't have a problem with any individual culture in the UK, I am sceptical that this kind of cultural transformation which is occurring in many parts of the UK (and US) today is in the interest of the average Brit or American. So to be clear, the US & UK don't need more immigrants. What we need is more of the right kind of immigrants. We need people who want to work and integrate into our communities. We want people with skills who are able to pay more in taxes than they take out. However, the conversation around immigration has become so black and white that it's impossible to argue for sanity. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/741926/Final_EEA_report.PDF https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

alottafunchata 6y ago

wow. so brave.

jbeard4 6y ago

If only GitHub would do the same: https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0 https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0 https://github.com/selfagency/microsoft-drop-ice https://github.com/selfagency/microsoft-drop-ice

spoopyskelly 6y ago
GitHub is too busy making empty gestures (like renaming the master branch and black/white lists) to do anything substantive that would affect their income.

Simulacra 6y ago

Eventually if no private company can be found, they'll just end up doing it themselves. At least with a private company in the mix, some accountability can be had.

joeloya 6y ago

Should every company stop doing business with the US Government? After all they are ultimately responsible for all the human rights violations. Activists employees imposing "do not sell/service to people I don't agree with" is a very dangerous precedent. Before you say this isn't politics but a human rights issue, ask yourself: Does the other side thinks the same? If not, it definitely is a political issue.

wrsh07 6y ago
I'm curious why you think it's a problem to refuse service to customers you think behave unethically That is within their right, why is it bad? Are you making a slippery slope argument? Separately, I do think that the current polarization is very concerning, and I don't know how to mitigate it.

buzzert 6y ago

Why does ICE need a contract with a social media company? And a foreign one at that?

kube-system 6y ago
To post tweets, presumably.

scott31 6y ago

Oh, virtue signalling, my favourite.

MattGrommes 6y ago

Most people's problem with ICE is not that it's enforcing the laws about immigration, it's how it's doing it. Do some research about the actual behavior of the organization, there are plenty of stories of unethical and illegal behavior in their pursuit of immigrants. I live in an area with a lot of southeast Indian families and the stories I've heard first-hand about how ICE agents treat them is atrocious.

sergiotapia 6y ago

Blows my mind every time how this country has uniquely been able to brainwash their citizens into _not_ wanting border control. Can I just YOLO into Japan because its "humane", lol probably not. They will ship me out ASAP.

vikramkr 6y ago

I'm surprised by the level of discussion around whether or not this is "justified." The purpose of a corporation is to maximize the utility function of its stakeholders. That doesn't have to be profit, and political/social justification isn't a necessary component of utility, but it is a valid one. If you found a company and are willing to make less money to have a more leisurely lifestyle with less day to day work, your utility function is not maximized if you take on more contracts to try and make more money. In Hootsuite, employees felt that working with ICE was not what they wanted, and they had the necessary market power and influence as stakeholders in the organization to change the organization's behavior. Why would a company be obligated to serve a foreign country's government agency? You shouldn't need to 'justify" your utility function by applying somebody else's normative standard. They don't want to serve ICE, so they don't. Companies should have the right to refuse service to customers they don't want to serve, and the barrier to entry to found competing companies to serve those customers should be low. The company created a product that ICE wants, they built the power to serve the government agency, and they should have the right to exercise it as they see fit. It would be different if they were a utility granted a monopoly by the state, in which case there should be significant regulations and oversight because it's not a new service they created. Basically, what I'm saying is, if you think that ICE should be able to get the services Hootsuite provides, then go ahead and start (or invest in) a competitor that will service ICE. We have a (reasonably) free market - use it.