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Is it really so clear cut? Suppose a KKK member had fled from the US to the UK and was trying to bring about the secession of the Confederacy from the Union to

by tome 6y ago

Is it really so clear cut? Suppose a KKK member had fled from the US to the UK and was trying to bring about the secession of the Confederacy from the Union to form a white supremacist state, and that part of his strategy was to selectively leak US state secrets. Should the UK refuse to extradite him because the extradition request is politically motivated?

hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
Potentially. It depends on the facts of the case as well as the guarantees around execution and torture' But in any case if the US wants suspects extradited from western countries they should abolish the death sentence and stop torturing prisoners.
- tome 6y ago
  > in any case if the US wants suspects extradited from western countries they should abolish the death sentence and stop torturing prisoners. Personally I agree with that, but that doesn't impinge on the "politically motivate" crime issue, does it?
  - hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
    What crime? This is politically motivated punishment.
    - tome 6y ago
      I believe the alleged crime is espionage. Espionage seems typically to have had a political motive historically. Does that mean that all such espionage charges should lead to denied extradition requests?
      - hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
        When the basis for the charge is political rather than factual like this one. Then usually yes.
        tome 6y ago
        I'm confused. "Political" and "factual" do not seem to be contradictory notions. The seem to be orthogonal, to me.
      - tome 6y ago
        Some interesting context > "Fitzgerald [barrister for the defence] stated that all major authorities agreed there were two types of political offence. The pure political offence and the relative political offence. A 'pure' political offence was defined as treason, espionage or sedition. A 'relative' political offence was an act which was normally criminal, like assault or vandalism, conducted with a political motive. Every one of the charges against Assange was a “pure” political offence. All but one were espionage charges, and the computer misuse charge had been compared by the prosecution to breach of the official secrets act to meet the dual criminality test. The overriding accusation that Assange was seeking to harm the political and military interests of the United States was in the very definition of a political offence in all the authorities." https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Vanessa_Baraitser#Political_extradition https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Vanessa_Baraitser#Political_extr...
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
My understanding is that this is precisely the sort of behavior that the customary "political crimes" exemption in extradition treaties is supposed to cover. Things like espionage, treason, separatism and other crimes against the state are inherently political. The UK-US extradition treaty also explicitly states that in the case of politically motivated prosecution, no extradition can occur.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Yes, they should not be extradited for leaking US State Secrets. They could be extradited for something else, which should be easy since they are a KKK member, but not for that act. Moreover, Assange isn't even an American citizen, so that doesn't work either.
- tome 6y ago
  I don't believe the KKK is an illegal organisation, but if it is then membership of an illegal organisation seems like it would fall under "political crime". In any case, change the setup to another organisation that is not outlawed but nonetheless has similar ends. I just don't see how extradition can be withheld for leaking state secrets just because the overall aim was to damage the US political status quo.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Membership of an organization that commits crimes is criminal, not because it is political. And if you're a member of the KKK you've certainly been implicated in a crime in some way. That being said, it is completely ridiculous to extradite an Australian for leaking US State secrets. It should just not be a thing, at all. So yes, leaking state secrets should not be an extraditeable offense. Treason? Maaaaybe.

by tome 6y ago

hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago

Potentially. It depends on the facts of the case as well as the guarantees around execution and torture' But in any case if the US wants suspects extradited from western countries they should abolish the death sentence and stop torturing prisoners.

tome 6y ago
> in any case if the US wants suspects extradited from western countries they should abolish the death sentence and stop torturing prisoners. Personally I agree with that, but that doesn't impinge on the "politically motivate" crime issue, does it?
- hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
  What crime? This is politically motivated punishment.
  - tome 6y ago
    I believe the alleged crime is espionage. Espionage seems typically to have had a political motive historically. Does that mean that all such espionage charges should lead to denied extradition requests?
    - hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
      When the basis for the charge is political rather than factual like this one. Then usually yes.
      - tome 6y ago
        I'm confused. "Political" and "factual" do not seem to be contradictory notions. The seem to be orthogonal, to me.
    - tome 6y ago
      Some interesting context > "Fitzgerald [barrister for the defence] stated that all major authorities agreed there were two types of political offence. The pure political offence and the relative political offence. A 'pure' political offence was defined as treason, espionage or sedition. A 'relative' political offence was an act which was normally criminal, like assault or vandalism, conducted with a political motive. Every one of the charges against Assange was a “pure” political offence. All but one were espionage charges, and the computer misuse charge had been compared by the prosecution to breach of the official secrets act to meet the dual criminality test. The overriding accusation that Assange was seeking to harm the political and military interests of the United States was in the very definition of a political offence in all the authorities." https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Vanessa_Baraitser#Political_extradition https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Vanessa_Baraitser#Political_extr...

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

My understanding is that this is precisely the sort of behavior that the customary "political crimes" exemption in extradition treaties is supposed to cover. Things like espionage, treason, separatism and other crimes against the state are inherently political. The UK-US extradition treaty also explicitly states that in the case of politically motivated prosecution, no extradition can occur.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Yes, they should not be extradited for leaking US State Secrets. They could be extradited for something else, which should be easy since they are a KKK member, but not for that act. Moreover, Assange isn't even an American citizen, so that doesn't work either.

tome 6y ago
I don't believe the KKK is an illegal organisation, but if it is then membership of an illegal organisation seems like it would fall under "political crime". In any case, change the setup to another organisation that is not outlawed but nonetheless has similar ends. I just don't see how extradition can be withheld for leaking state secrets just because the overall aim was to damage the US political status quo.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Membership of an organization that commits crimes is criminal, not because it is political. And if you're a member of the KKK you've certainly been implicated in a crime in some way. That being said, it is completely ridiculous to extradite an Australian for leaking US State secrets. It should just not be a thing, at all. So yes, leaking state secrets should not be an extraditeable offense. Treason? Maaaaybe.