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Throwaway because I have a business in Singapore and I don't want to associate this comment with it. It's an open secret that Singapore rely heavily on cheap l

Throwaway because I have a business in Singapore and I don't want to associate this comment with it. It's an open secret that Singapore rely heavily on cheap labors from overseas for many jobs that Singaporeans are refusing to do: construction works, live in maids, hawker centers cleaning (some old Singaporeans do do this though). In many household it's common to have 1, or in some of my friends' home, 2 live in maids to help with chore. They get paid around 400-600 SGD (250-400 USD) per month depends on where they are from, how fluent they are in English and are expected to work at least 5 days a week. The employer keeps their passports, and can pretty much send the maid back to their country immediately. This imbalance relationship feels very wrong to me, but most people here don't care. Because the pay is low, the quality and ethic of some domestic helpers are not great. Some do steal and sabotage their employers when they're not happy, I've heard many horror stories over the year. On the other hand, many employers don't see them as equal, or even human. A quick google will show you both side of the story, and for all the good things Singapore have to offer, low-pay workers' right is virtually non-existent and as long as Singapore benefit from it, I don't think it will change anytime soon. Edit: Something I forgot to include: employers do provide a room and meals for the maids, so their expenses in Singapore is minimal if they want to, and in many cases they send most of their salary back home.

l0b0 6y ago
I've heard the exact same things (except for the actual salary) from two separate families who've lived in Singapore. Private persons withholding someone's passport for any reason whatsoever should be punishable similar to slavery, because the end effect is so similar.
- throwawaysgx 6y ago
  Pre-COVID, you can visit a shopping mall and select your maid from a pool of selection. The whole experience is bizarre and inhuman and I don’t quite understand how many of my friends do it.
  - nikshawarma 6y ago
    Exactly. Every time I step into those malls and see those shops, I feel utterly disgusted. It feels so cheap and dirty. I don't think I can ever bring myself to hire a live-in helper.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    People’s ability to rationalize and normalize can be extremely impressive, if not occasionally nauseating.
  - iateanapple 6y ago
    > The whole experience is bizarre and inhuman and I don’t quite understand how many of my friends do it. Why is it bizarre and inhuman? A maid working in Singapore will earn 3-4x what she will make in Indonesia with generally better working conditions. In addition because expenses are minimal (food+accommodation provided) you can save in 3-5 years what a typical lower class family living in Indonesia will save over 20.
    - manquer 6y ago
      The inhumanity is nothing to do with economics of it. It is do with how they are being treated. What rights they have if they are selected out a shopping mall. They have zero avenue for support when they face abuse whether physical, sexual or emotional. visas in places like these ask you to leave immediately if you get quit or fired from a job.
      - iateanapple 6y ago
        > They have zero avenue for support when they face abuse whether physical, sexual or emotional. That is not true at all. Singapore is a country of law and order. > visas in places like these ask you to leave immediately if you get quit or fired from a job. They have been invited to a country as a temporary worker to do a specific job. Saying you have to go home if you get fired is not inhuman. I have worked offshore and had my contract canceled - it sucks but it’s not inhuman.
ryanmccullagh 6y ago
> live in maids to help with chore > The employer keeps their passports > They get paid around 400-600 SGD (250-400 USD) That sounds like modern slavery.
- goldforever 6y ago
  It is exactly that!
- manquer 6y ago
  It is not just singapore . It is common in many parts of the world like middle east. Economic Slavery has always been there and is still there. There are plenty of jobs which people don't want to do unless they are poor. Either countries kept parts of the population always poor or imported from poor countries. Like mexicans in america. Exploiting the working class is a feature of modern variants of capitalism. Legal slavery is the only thing that got abolished. P.S. on a seperate note and no means a defense of this, the salary is slightly misleading as it usually includes stay and food.
  - throwawaysgx 6y ago
    I edited my comment to make it clearer.
  - mirekrusin 6y ago
    Brazil as well, ie. many appartments have dedicated toilet/facilities built-in for empregadas who live sunny part of the day in the house cleaning/cooking etc.
  - danmaz74 6y ago
    Low paying jobs are a problem, but nowhere near as terrible as actual slavery - where you don't have the right to defend yourself from physical abuse, the right to move to a different place, etc. What sounds particularly indicting in the described situation though is employers keeping the employees' passports. Things like this can make someone's situation more similar to a slave's.
Ar-Curunir 6y ago
Essentially the same thing happens in the Gulf countries (UAE, Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar, etc)
arp242 6y ago
400SGD is about 4.3 million Indonesian Rupiah, 600SGD is 6.5 million, which is more than people from the poorer parts of Indonesia can earn (costs of living vary wildly on region; my girlfriend earns "only" 8 million as a vet in Bali which is one of the better earning parts, which is about €460), so ... I guess in a way it's still a "good deal" for the migrants. Not defending it, just explaining why it happens. Conversely, if a white person gets employed in Indonesia they get paid western salaries even though they do the same work as Indonesians who still get paid Indonesian salaries for the exact same job. Of course, as an Indonesian working as a vet abroad is damn near impossible. The deck really is stacked against you if you happen to be from a country like Indonesia.
- nelaboras 6y ago
  But they also have to live from those funds while in the country where they work, so even if food & accomodation are covered it's not as if you can just apply these home country cost of living and claim it's a good deal. These migrant workers live incredibly frugal to be able to send money back home and are basically excluded from life in their host country. It's exploitation, even if all sides have some benefits.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I think you're underestimating how low salaries in Indonesia can be; 2.5 or 3 million is not uncommon. I see people literally going through trash. I see people working all day. Compared to that, SG life seems comparatively good. Even if you're able to send back just half then with 600SGD (the salary in the story) then you're still sending back a full month's wage for your family to spend, and it's quite likely you'll be able to send back more if you want. I think some here are reasoning too much from their western perspective, and this isn't the kind of thing you really tend to see if you just visit for a week. Is it exploitation? Sure, I never said it's not. Everyone should deserve a reasonable minimum living standard, and it's sad I see so many people who don't. Yet at the same time, a lot of Indonesians still see as a "good deal" for them, exploitive or not, as it's just a better life than staying in Indonesia. This doesn't make it right, but it does explain it. There's a reason this women went back to Singapore after her negative experience. In many ways, this is just as much of a failing of Indonesia's government who fail to solve basic problems as they're too busy siphoning money to their own accounts or getting lost in petty religious/ethnic arguments.
scoutt 6y ago
I spent some time in Singapore. A thing I noticed is that if you stay long enough after dinner, you can see a lot of buses loading people in the city alleys and then slowly moving out from the city. When I asked I was told that these are most of the city employees going back home in Malaysia. It was late, and I imagined that these people may sleep just a couple of hours before coming back for the opening the shops in the morning. In the meantime there were at least 3 Ferraris and a couple of Lamborghinis going back and forth over Orchard road.
- throwawaysgx 6y ago
  Another example of how Singapore treat low pay foreign workers: So in a car, you're supposed to wear your seat belt, right? It's normally a traffic offence, but not if you're transporting construction workers at the back of a truck[1]. It's perfectly fine to make them live in a room with 12 other workers, with limited toilet and kitchen capacity. It's fine to ignore them when COVID-19 hit, until it's no longer possible to do so[2]. Singapore is built by the workers, and they're considered disposable by the system. [1] https://citiesofmigration.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_4b.jpg https://citiesofmigration.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_... [2] https://www.arabnews.com/node/1655741/world https://www.arabnews.com/node/1655741/world
exidy 6y ago
There are a few inaccuracies here. The minimum rate for FDWs from Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the Philippines is S$450, S$497, S$550 and S$570, respectively per month. Experienced FDWs (5+ years) can earn S$700-$850 SGD. Usually FDWs work a 6-day week with one mandated rest day per week. It is an offence for an employer to keep the FDW's passport[1]. I do agree with you on the power imbalance. It can make it hard for the FDW to assert their rights, even if they know they exist. [1] https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-pass-general/can-an-employer-keep-a-workers-passport https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-pass-general/can-an-employer...
jhanschoo 6y ago
Something important about this arrangement also needs to be stated: a good number of immigrant laborers in Singapore receive the opportunity to work in Singapore from a recruitment agency from where they're based, so that they begin their vocation in significant debt.
jnaina 6y ago
Providing another data point, lest everyone thinks Singaporeans are exploitative lot as a whole. Our live-in helper gets paid SGD$700 monthly. She has her own room and bathroom. We treat her like a part of the family. My children adore her, and she takes very good care of them. Her mother used to work for us many years ago, and has since retired. Because her mom is not doing well health wise, we also gift her SGD$100 every month, to help with her expenses. The family has managed to build a very nice house with all the money earned in Singapore. And there are many such cases in Singapore. Which is why Indonesians keep coming back to Singapore to earn a decent living.
- xuki 6y ago
  Sorry to burst your bubble but that's exploitation. How much would you have to pay for a Singaporean to do the same job? I'm not say you are exploiting the FDWs in particular, but the whole system is. Imagine Singapore was not a first world country, and you had the chance to work as a developer in the US for 1/5 the salary. Still a good deal for you, but the company is definitely exploiting you.

l0b0 6y ago

I've heard the exact same things (except for the actual salary) from two separate families who've lived in Singapore. Private persons withholding someone's passport for any reason whatsoever should be punishable similar to slavery, because the end effect is so similar.

throwawaysgx 6y ago
Pre-COVID, you can visit a shopping mall and select your maid from a pool of selection. The whole experience is bizarre and inhuman and I don’t quite understand how many of my friends do it.
- nikshawarma 6y ago
  Exactly. Every time I step into those malls and see those shops, I feel utterly disgusted. It feels so cheap and dirty. I don't think I can ever bring myself to hire a live-in helper.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  People’s ability to rationalize and normalize can be extremely impressive, if not occasionally nauseating.
- iateanapple 6y ago
  > The whole experience is bizarre and inhuman and I don’t quite understand how many of my friends do it. Why is it bizarre and inhuman? A maid working in Singapore will earn 3-4x what she will make in Indonesia with generally better working conditions. In addition because expenses are minimal (food+accommodation provided) you can save in 3-5 years what a typical lower class family living in Indonesia will save over 20.
  - manquer 6y ago
    The inhumanity is nothing to do with economics of it. It is do with how they are being treated. What rights they have if they are selected out a shopping mall. They have zero avenue for support when they face abuse whether physical, sexual or emotional. visas in places like these ask you to leave immediately if you get quit or fired from a job.
    - iateanapple 6y ago
      > They have zero avenue for support when they face abuse whether physical, sexual or emotional. That is not true at all. Singapore is a country of law and order. > visas in places like these ask you to leave immediately if you get quit or fired from a job. They have been invited to a country as a temporary worker to do a specific job. Saying you have to go home if you get fired is not inhuman. I have worked offshore and had my contract canceled - it sucks but it’s not inhuman.

ryanmccullagh 6y ago

> live in maids to help with chore > The employer keeps their passports > They get paid around 400-600 SGD (250-400 USD) That sounds like modern slavery.

goldforever 6y ago
It is exactly that!
manquer 6y ago
It is not just singapore . It is common in many parts of the world like middle east. Economic Slavery has always been there and is still there. There are plenty of jobs which people don't want to do unless they are poor. Either countries kept parts of the population always poor or imported from poor countries. Like mexicans in america. Exploiting the working class is a feature of modern variants of capitalism. Legal slavery is the only thing that got abolished. P.S. on a seperate note and no means a defense of this, the salary is slightly misleading as it usually includes stay and food.
- throwawaysgx 6y ago
  I edited my comment to make it clearer.
- mirekrusin 6y ago
  Brazil as well, ie. many appartments have dedicated toilet/facilities built-in for empregadas who live sunny part of the day in the house cleaning/cooking etc.
- danmaz74 6y ago
  Low paying jobs are a problem, but nowhere near as terrible as actual slavery - where you don't have the right to defend yourself from physical abuse, the right to move to a different place, etc. What sounds particularly indicting in the described situation though is employers keeping the employees' passports. Things like this can make someone's situation more similar to a slave's.

Ar-Curunir 6y ago

Essentially the same thing happens in the Gulf countries (UAE, Bahrain, Saudi, Qatar, etc)

arp242 6y ago

400SGD is about 4.3 million Indonesian Rupiah, 600SGD is 6.5 million, which is more than people from the poorer parts of Indonesia can earn (costs of living vary wildly on region; my girlfriend earns "only" 8 million as a vet in Bali which is one of the better earning parts, which is about €460), so ... I guess in a way it's still a "good deal" for the migrants. Not defending it, just explaining why it happens. Conversely, if a white person gets employed in Indonesia they get paid western salaries even though they do the same work as Indonesians who still get paid Indonesian salaries for the exact same job. Of course, as an Indonesian working as a vet abroad is damn near impossible. The deck really is stacked against you if you happen to be from a country like Indonesia.

nelaboras 6y ago
But they also have to live from those funds while in the country where they work, so even if food & accomodation are covered it's not as if you can just apply these home country cost of living and claim it's a good deal. These migrant workers live incredibly frugal to be able to send money back home and are basically excluded from life in their host country. It's exploitation, even if all sides have some benefits.
- arp242 6y ago
  I think you're underestimating how low salaries in Indonesia can be; 2.5 or 3 million is not uncommon. I see people literally going through trash. I see people working all day. Compared to that, SG life seems comparatively good. Even if you're able to send back just half then with 600SGD (the salary in the story) then you're still sending back a full month's wage for your family to spend, and it's quite likely you'll be able to send back more if you want. I think some here are reasoning too much from their western perspective, and this isn't the kind of thing you really tend to see if you just visit for a week. Is it exploitation? Sure, I never said it's not. Everyone should deserve a reasonable minimum living standard, and it's sad I see so many people who don't. Yet at the same time, a lot of Indonesians still see as a "good deal" for them, exploitive or not, as it's just a better life than staying in Indonesia. This doesn't make it right, but it does explain it. There's a reason this women went back to Singapore after her negative experience. In many ways, this is just as much of a failing of Indonesia's government who fail to solve basic problems as they're too busy siphoning money to their own accounts or getting lost in petty religious/ethnic arguments.

scoutt 6y ago

I spent some time in Singapore. A thing I noticed is that if you stay long enough after dinner, you can see a lot of buses loading people in the city alleys and then slowly moving out from the city. When I asked I was told that these are most of the city employees going back home in Malaysia. It was late, and I imagined that these people may sleep just a couple of hours before coming back for the opening the shops in the morning. In the meantime there were at least 3 Ferraris and a couple of Lamborghinis going back and forth over Orchard road.

throwawaysgx 6y ago
Another example of how Singapore treat low pay foreign workers: So in a car, you're supposed to wear your seat belt, right? It's normally a traffic offence, but not if you're transporting construction workers at the back of a truck[1]. It's perfectly fine to make them live in a room with 12 other workers, with limited toilet and kitchen capacity. It's fine to ignore them when COVID-19 hit, until it's no longer possible to do so[2]. Singapore is built by the workers, and they're considered disposable by the system. [1] https://citiesofmigration.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_4b.jpg https://citiesofmigration.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/IMG_... [2] https://www.arabnews.com/node/1655741/world https://www.arabnews.com/node/1655741/world

exidy 6y ago

There are a few inaccuracies here. The minimum rate for FDWs from Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the Philippines is S$450, S$497, S$550 and S$570, respectively per month. Experienced FDWs (5+ years) can earn S$700-$850 SGD. Usually FDWs work a 6-day week with one mandated rest day per week. It is an offence for an employer to keep the FDW's passport[1]. I do agree with you on the power imbalance. It can make it hard for the FDW to assert their rights, even if they know they exist. [1] https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-pass-general/can-an-employer-keep-a-workers-passport https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-pass-general/can-an-employer...

jhanschoo 6y ago

Something important about this arrangement also needs to be stated: a good number of immigrant laborers in Singapore receive the opportunity to work in Singapore from a recruitment agency from where they're based, so that they begin their vocation in significant debt.

jnaina 6y ago

Providing another data point, lest everyone thinks Singaporeans are exploitative lot as a whole. Our live-in helper gets paid SGD$700 monthly. She has her own room and bathroom. We treat her like a part of the family. My children adore her, and she takes very good care of them. Her mother used to work for us many years ago, and has since retired. Because her mom is not doing well health wise, we also gift her SGD$100 every month, to help with her expenses. The family has managed to build a very nice house with all the money earned in Singapore. And there are many such cases in Singapore. Which is why Indonesians keep coming back to Singapore to earn a decent living.

xuki 6y ago
Sorry to burst your bubble but that's exploitation. How much would you have to pay for a Singaporean to do the same job? I'm not say you are exploiting the FDWs in particular, but the whole system is. Imagine Singapore was not a first world country, and you had the chance to work as a developer in the US for 1/5 the salary. Still a good deal for you, but the company is definitely exploiting you.