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SwiftUI being closed source is a huge issue for developers. Apple behaves as if every user is immediately on the latest version but the reality is the _lucky_ d

by myko 6y ago

SwiftUI being closed source is a huge issue for developers. Apple behaves as if every user is immediately on the latest version but the reality is the _lucky_ developers support one major version back. SwiftUI is broken in completely different ways for each minor release of iOS 13 and none of the fixes in 14 are possible to use in 13. It's shocking how mismanaged the SDK development at Apple is.

oscargrouch 6y ago
SwiftUI is an attempt to stop the spread of people coding for things like React and instead focus in a Apple only SDK so they accomplish their goals of developer lock in. Knowing why Apple is doing this is important to understand why this will never happen. Apparently the feature they are using is function builders (1) and its already working on the current versions of Swift. So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features. By the way, there are some projects on Github that already implements the same functionalities. Don't wait for Apple to open source this kind of stuff, because one way to enforce lock in, is through API. And Apple is far away from being a benevolent big other as some people might naively assume. 1 - https://www.swiftbysundell.com/articles/the-swift-51-features-that-power-swiftuis-api/ https://www.swiftbysundell.com/articles/the-swift-51-feature...
- setr 6y ago
  If you look at it benevolently, then it seems like they tried to force out the API they wanted, and made it publicly available to verify, and then worked backwards to implement it in the compiler properly That is, "So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features." was always the intent Similar to rust implementing magic features and APIs, and macros, in nightly, before the API is verified and the implementation is ready. In which case, you'd expect all of SwiftUI to be eventually possible by anyone else.
- wool_gather 6y ago
  > function builders [are] already working on the current versions of Swift. So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features. Function builders are still not a public feature, and therefore subject to breaking revisions without warning.
trevor-e 6y ago
Yea SwiftUI being tied to the iOS runtime was an incredibly bad decision IMO. WWDC the last couple years has been mostly useless because it's all about SwiftUI, and basically none of Apple's major app partners can use it yet since we are stuck supporting iOS11/12. edit: and most of the useful additions are tied with iOS14 (lazy lists), so even if we were able to bump our min support to iOS13 it would be _years_ before we could do 14.
Razengan 6y ago
> Apple behaves as if every user is immediately on the latest version iOS 14 Adoption Surpasses 25% Across iPhone and iPad Five Days After Release https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ix3gve/ios_14_adoption_surpasses_25_across_iphone_and/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ix3gve/ios_14_adopti... How long does it usually take on Android?
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  Nobody was talking about Android. And the number of people still on 12 is significant.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    > Nobody was talking about Android. It matters in the current context. Developers have a much easier time targeting the latest and hottest on iOS, compared to the only other alternative. > And the number of people still on 12 is significant. Not for long if 14 is already 25% in less than a week, and most users upgrade to the latest versions soon enough.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      > compared to the only other alternative Nobody was doing comparisons either. But for this topic shouldn't we be comparing to windows programming tools too? And those generally get to update their language runtimes all on their own, without waiting for the OS at all. > Not for long if 14 is already 25% in less than a week I don't understand that logic. I didn't say 13, I said 12. The release of 14 isn't going to suddenly get a significant number of people off 12. The number of users on 12 is going to drop over time but 12 is locked in as the final version for multiple percent of iphone owners in the US. It could be two more years before most companies are comfortable breaking compatibility with that to get some coding conveniences.
    - myko 6y ago
      > It matters in the current context. Developers have a much easier time targeting the latest and hottest on iOS, compared to the only other alternative. As mentioned above this is not true. On Android developers can ship the latest and greatest to devices 4-5 years old because the first party libraries are distributed in such a way to enable that. SwiftUI/Combine are bundled with OS versions.

by myko 6y ago

oscargrouch 6y ago

SwiftUI is an attempt to stop the spread of people coding for things like React and instead focus in a Apple only SDK so they accomplish their goals of developer lock in. Knowing why Apple is doing this is important to understand why this will never happen. Apparently the feature they are using is function builders (1) and its already working on the current versions of Swift. So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features. By the way, there are some projects on Github that already implements the same functionalities. Don't wait for Apple to open source this kind of stuff, because one way to enforce lock in, is through API. And Apple is far away from being a benevolent big other as some people might naively assume. 1 - https://www.swiftbysundell.com/articles/the-swift-51-features-that-power-swiftuis-api/ https://www.swiftbysundell.com/articles/the-swift-51-feature...

setr 6y ago
If you look at it benevolently, then it seems like they tried to force out the API they wanted, and made it publicly available to verify, and then worked backwards to implement it in the compiler properly That is, "So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features." was always the intent Similar to rust implementing magic features and APIs, and macros, in nightly, before the API is verified and the implementation is ready. In which case, you'd expect all of SwiftUI to be eventually possible by anyone else.
wool_gather 6y ago
> function builders [are] already working on the current versions of Swift. So at least now, nothing is preventing other people to try to replicate in a open source manner those features. Function builders are still not a public feature, and therefore subject to breaking revisions without warning.

trevor-e 6y ago

Yea SwiftUI being tied to the iOS runtime was an incredibly bad decision IMO. WWDC the last couple years has been mostly useless because it's all about SwiftUI, and basically none of Apple's major app partners can use it yet since we are stuck supporting iOS11/12. edit: and most of the useful additions are tied with iOS14 (lazy lists), so even if we were able to bump our min support to iOS13 it would be _years_ before we could do 14.

Razengan 6y ago

> Apple behaves as if every user is immediately on the latest version iOS 14 Adoption Surpasses 25% Across iPhone and iPad Five Days After Release https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ix3gve/ios_14_adoption_surpasses_25_across_iphone_and/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/ix3gve/ios_14_adopti... How long does it usually take on Android?

Dylan16807 6y ago
Nobody was talking about Android. And the number of people still on 12 is significant.
- Razengan 6y ago
  > Nobody was talking about Android. It matters in the current context. Developers have a much easier time targeting the latest and hottest on iOS, compared to the only other alternative. > And the number of people still on 12 is significant. Not for long if 14 is already 25% in less than a week, and most users upgrade to the latest versions soon enough.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    > compared to the only other alternative Nobody was doing comparisons either. But for this topic shouldn't we be comparing to windows programming tools too? And those generally get to update their language runtimes all on their own, without waiting for the OS at all. > Not for long if 14 is already 25% in less than a week I don't understand that logic. I didn't say 13, I said 12. The release of 14 isn't going to suddenly get a significant number of people off 12. The number of users on 12 is going to drop over time but 12 is locked in as the final version for multiple percent of iphone owners in the US. It could be two more years before most companies are comfortable breaking compatibility with that to get some coding conveniences.
  - myko 6y ago
    > It matters in the current context. Developers have a much easier time targeting the latest and hottest on iOS, compared to the only other alternative. As mentioned above this is not true. On Android developers can ship the latest and greatest to devices 4-5 years old because the first party libraries are distributed in such a way to enable that. SwiftUI/Combine are bundled with OS versions.