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ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefor
by lowend 6y ago
ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming:
1. This is due to a few bad apples
2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not)
3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist
I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't give away my caste either. I don't broadcast it or even like to talk about it because growing up I experienced innumerable instances where people's behaviors instantly changed when they found out. Some mild, some extreme but it was there.
I grew up in a metro so this isn't a backward ass village. My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you?
Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. Fortunately, there are plenty of people (regardless of their caste - I never ask/care) that feel the same way. Funny enough, the people who care about caste also seem to be racially biased in my anecdotal experience. :|
- covfefeblack 6y agoThat sucks man :| - I'm sorry you went through that. From my experience, Indian colleges are pathologically socially backwards - more so than the rest of Indian society (as opposed to the west where schools are more progressive than society)
- screye 6y agoI am not from an upper caste either, but my experience doesn't match with yours at all. My peer group is less culturally Indian than others, but I wonder if experiences such as yours are more pronounced in certain regions or groups, more than others. I have never once been asked my caste, and I have never once seen my friends be asked their castes. But, I realize that being middle class in an Indian metro city already puts me in the 10% class of India that is somewhat shielded from this stuff. I also know that caste becomes a huge thing during marriages and dating. But, I haven't seen much of it in tech. It is far more prevalent in careers where you need communication with under-skilled workers (mechE, civilE), since these workers stick by castes quite closely. > My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards Would you be willing to tell me what university this was. I can't imagine this being the case in any metro city in India. I won't call you a liar, but this is the first I hear of it and the burden of evidence is on you. > I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" Oh yeah, I am too, and I can completely empathize with this people making this assumption. Although, it has been more commonly used in situations where it is used as a way to say "you do not understand the problems of lower caste / dark skinned people in India" than anything else. ________________ Caste based discrimination is a huge problem in India, especially in non-metro India. But, my 2 cents, I have yet to notice any in my time in Tech in the US. ( I did go to a university/location with low south Asian%, but my peer groups in university were very Indian, as are most masters programs, but YMMV)
- fakedang 6y agoI know in my brother's university (IT-BHU), they put caste names next to students' names. And this was a top-tier government university at that! In my University (IIT-D), I believe certain scholarship announcements revealed details about students' categories, ie whether they were SC/ST/OBC/General. Especially if it were a means scholarship. Worse case, professors in India have zero personality training, and will casually ask such questions of their students.
- legolas2412 6y agoAren't those merit-cum-means scholarships actually have a caste-based criterion? In that case they are just being transparent, and claiming it to be casteist is ridiculous. You might as well say that reservations revealed caste by showing people got through reservation quota, hence there is caste discrimination, hence more reservation is required.
- fakedang 6y agoThey could do the same without putting student lists on public display. Guess it's up to the authorities that be to weigh the decision whether it's better to be more transparent or whether to preserve a sense of anonymity in certain key topics. There was this online portal built at the time, where students could check the rank of any person, just with a name or IIT-JEE exam pass number. Of course a lot of people searched, and within one month (the feature was released in December), a lot of friendship circles changed, thus rendering moot the whole point of bringing every student to live under the same roof.
- crossroadsguy 6y agoIn BHU (and by extension at IT-BHU as well and have heard it has continued at IIT BHU as well) and many other universities in the North it's called phylumbaazi. Phylum + Baazi.
- pkphilip 6y agoIn TN they even demanded wrist bands for students to identify their caste...in 2019 at the school level. This was abolished after a lot of opposition. https://www.edexlive.com/news/2019/aug/18/caste-in-stone-why-caste-bands-in-tamil-nadu-schools-are-just-the-tip-of-the-discrimination-iceberg-7505.html https://www.edexlive.com/news/2019/aug/18/caste-in-stone-why...
- ponker 6y agoI don’t have any expertise here, but “no it’s not” is not an argument, regardless of how loud you say it.
- Caylio 6y agoThe same could be said about your comment.
- ponker 6y agoOf course. I am not refuting the point, only highlighting that none was actually made. The deficiency of the argument by trying a more obvious statement of fact. “Two plus two isn’t five, it’s just not.” Agree with you, cap’n. “Two plus two isn’t four... it’s just not.” Um, okay.
- dqpb 6y agoHow do they know what each persons caste is?
- tw600040 6y ago//How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you? I agree. It shouldn't be. But then it shouldn't be relevant during admissions too yeh?
- colinmhayes 6y agoHow is growing up with extreme discrimination not relevant?
- tw600040 6y agoDepends. So who should win the 100 m olympics? someone who is fastest or someone who was discriminated against? Which team should win the football match? the team that scores the most points or should the background of the players be a criteria?
- ben_e 6y agoEducation isn’t a zero sum game.
- 0x6862 6y agoUniversity admission is for those on the margin, since the positions are limited
- curiousllama 6y agoAdmissions counselors aren't arbitrating a match, they're predicting success and shaping an environment. Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sh*t and got a 1450 cold?
- tw600040 6y ago//Who's going to be more successful: someone tutored, mentored, and cajoled to a 1500 SAT or someone who never had sht and got a 1450 cold? Yeah, so who should be given gold in olympics? someone who was trained and mentored and finished first or someone who never had sht and ran slower?
- fwiwm2c 6y agoDon't generalize. Give strong arguments vs. only relaying your own experience. Otherwise, you are falling into a trap you yourself laid out in point #3 yourself. Question is whether most Indians who come to US for work are actually upper class Indians already and thus this 90% number is what it is. Or do lower class Indians also come to US, face discrimination and thus either go back or struggle to find work. If the former, the issue is policies/attitudes in India which needs to be done better (easier said than done). If the latter, then we need to dig deeper.
- fakedang 6y agoIf you had seen the recent CISCO case, then you'd know it is definitely the latter.
- sneak 6y ago> Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. What kinds of things do they say, or how does their speaking change once they learn? I'm totally outside of this culture but have been studying caste discrimination and its history lately and have been trying to learn all I can about it.
- fakedang 6y agoThey'll sneak in the odd question here and there. Maybe they'll find out from the surname, or perhaps the locality of the town/city you're from in India, or the kind of food you eat (upper-castes are mainly vegetarian), or your dialect. Heck sometimes the deity you worship will reveal one's caste.
- brokenmachine 6y agoBut then what? They talk down to you if you are a lower caste? In what ways does their behavior change if they know your caste? If they talked down to you and you told them that you don't appreciate their tone, then what would happen?
- fakedang 6y agoYes, they talk them down, berate them more often, mostly involuntary cues of rejection. Most people would not talk back for the sake of being passed over for promotion/raises. I understand most Westerners wouldn't balk from the idea of talking back at them, but cultural norms in Asia effectively discourage back-talk against superiors, hence why it has been prevalent in SV for this long.
- YetAnotherNick 6y ago> My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? I have seen far less serious things related to caste dragged on media for days. I think this is illegal, and I am sure I heard in the news there is a law against marking someone's caste. Also there is law where you can be selective about disclosing caste and won't have to disclose it if you don't want the benefit. Any proof you have for this?
- yumraj 6y ago> 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) Of course Reservation IS the problem if you're unfortunate to be an upper caste. The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it. More and more castes, outside the original designation, demanded it in exchange for votes, and more and more upper caste Indians felt cheated as they lost limited opportunities that should have been purely been given on merit basis. NOTE: I support reservation if it is on the basis of economic criteria, wherein a student genuinely did not get the opportunities as they were growing up. The problem is, India is full of lower-caste affluent families where generations have taken advantage of the reservation, while the poor lower-caste, and upper-caste, people have languished. And due to the reservation, these affluent lower-caste students, in general do now have to work as hard as the students competing in the general category. Tamil Nadu has 69% reservation, there is similar data for other states. In IIT, while there was cutthroat competition for general category seats, SC/ST (reserved category) seats went unfilled since in the IITs there was (not sure if it still is there) a min standard was required. Every, baring maybe 1-2 exceptions, of SC/STs were in slow paced category, which meant they graduated in 5 years as opposed to everyone else graduating in 4 years. What this meant is that by default the general category students who made through the system, were on average, better educated and trained, than the lower-caste equivalents. This is just the unfortunate truth.
- op03 6y agoMaybe true, but if you use that as a reason to harass an underlying, you will get fired if you work for me.
- yumraj 6y agoAgree. Discrimination of any kind: color, race, language, caste, class, gender, sexual orientation, anything else I missed, has no place in today’s society.
- vendroo 6y agoI have seen this sentiment being reflected by many people (in one extreme case someone called that they were being persecuted by the government). Indian caste system is an unfair oppressive system put together to maintain the hierarchical advantage. Reparations/interventions were needed to bridge the gap, if not the unfairness would be much more rampant. Not sure about IITs, I went to one of the top NITs and thats definitely not the case with people not being able graduate in 4 years. I have personally seen examples of people completely uplifting their family from poverty by the chance they have gotten via reservation. Disclaimer: I am neither upper caste nor lower, somewhere in the middle, I guess and have not been positively or adversely impacted because of my caste.
- technofiend 6y agoI once asked a co-worker if he felt caste ever impacted him in any way. He said well when I went to the local visa office in India the officer behind the desk approving visas had a certain surname. Only 25 people a day are approved for a Visa and except for me, everyone else in the room had that officer's surname.
- raincom 6y agoThis doesn't make any sense at all. Does an Indian national approve visas for Non-Indian countries in the consulates of other countries? Which country's visa is that? Does Canada allow an Indian national to approve visa applications?
- triceratops 6y ago> Only 25 people a day are approved for a Visa and except for me, everyone else in the room had that officer's surname. How did you know the surnames of all the other people in the room?
- technofiend 6y agoI didn't. He did. I'll ask him to retell the story since as someone else pointed out he was confused by the details. So I'll try to get them from the story teller.
- triceratops 6y agoI misunderstood. The lack of quotation marks made it seem like it was your story.
- NavinF 6y agoAs a 24yo Indian guy living in the US, I find this comment very confusing. How do I even find out what "caste" I'm in? I've literally never heard that word used in a conversation with other Indian people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- legolas2412 6y agoAre you Indian american? Because generally people know what surnames fall in whatever caste. People, mostly of our parents generation, know and remember thousands of surnames and associated caste.
- srean 6y agoAs a Bengali I can assure me there are many like me from Bengal who don't. Bengal for whatever reasons seemed to have solved this way better than other states.
- legolas2412 6y agoI don't either. You'll have to get a better sample representing bengali villages and older people to conclude that casteism is dead.
- srean 6y agoAs I had mentioned in my other comment, our grandparent generation holds on to some aspect and that it is stronger in villages. But having travelled through India extensively, the kind that goes on in Bengal is no comparison to say Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Karnataka. That's the reason you will politicians have caste centric campaigns and manifestos. In Bengal, politicians know that caste will not get them votes, BJP is trying its level best to split the vote along caste lines.
- wishinghand 6y agoPerhaps it's a sign of being sheltered. Kind of like white people in the USA not knowing of their privilege.
- muzaffarpur 6y agohttps://admission.aglasem.com/jee-main-cut-offs/ https://admission.aglasem.com/jee-main-cut-offs/ Category JEE Main 2019 Cut Off Common Rank List 89.7548849 Gen EWS 78.2174869 OBC NCL 74.3166557 SC 54.0128155 ST 44.3345172 PWD 0.11371730 Common Rank List = Upper caste SC/ST = lower caste 90 vs 44/54.
- higerordermap 6y agoThe "Indian left" doesn't acknowledge this, and jumps in every discussion to defend the current caste based reservation system that doesn't consider economic status of the candidate. If someone writes JEE, it is likely they have spent a lot for coaching / study materials, and it is likely they don't deserve reservation.
- sharmashobhit 6y agoThis argument relies on the fact that the concerned person should not rise above ME in status. Perhaps you should look at it as a country and see that the upliftment happens at multiple levels across multiple generations. A person who gets a job as a clerk in the first generation gets his kids the education to make him an engineer. This kid then wants his kid to grow up to be a civil servant. As it has been mentioned in the thread multiple times, reservation is not an economic upliftment program. It's a social upliftment program to ensure representation at all levels.
- RichardCA 6y agoSo I do a quick lookup on what "OBC NCL" means and it comes back as "Other Backwards Class - Non Creamy Layer". My initial reaction was that this was some sort of joke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creamy_layer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creamy_layer https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/OBC-creamy-layer https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/OBC-creamy-layer
- higerordermap 6y agoWhy is reservation not a problem? If a SC/ST person whose parents are rich (maybe due to a govt. job by reservation itself?) and gets 1/2 of marks of a middle class person just by being lower caste, then there is an issue with reservation. The correct approach is, if the parents of a lower caste person have got advantage of reservation, the reservation should go to next person in queue. This way benefits can be evenly distributed instead of benefitting few wealthy people.
- Bodhisattya 6y agoEven as a beneficiary of the reservation system, I do wonder whether it is the answer. I personally feel the caste identity is tied deeply with religion and both tend to get utilized by the powers that be, in a similar manner. Ultimately, it falls onto us to uplift ourselves, as frankly, I don't see why anyone, would willingly give up something that benefits them, especially when it is considered a part of their birthright.
- brokenmachine 6y ago>people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. Excuse my ignorance but how does one "speak as such" because of caste? Are there different words, eg like "tu" and "vous" in French?
- wellWisherToday 6y agoWe should also realize that a child's performance also depends on how his/her parents are treated. A child who sees parents being looked down upon will not be as confident as a child who sees parents being respected. So reservation will be required for generations in India even for "rich" people who are not respected.