3 ms·

For more perspective, here would be the death total if we had a per capita death rate equal to some of our peer nations: France - 157,536 Canada - 88,287 Ger

by slg 6y ago

For more perspective, here would be the death total if we had a per capita death rate equal to some of our peer nations: France - 157,536 Canada - 88,287 Germany - 37,087 The number of people in the US who have died due to government incompetence is in the neighborhood of 50,000-150,000.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
christkv 6y ago
Now do Spain, Belgium and Sweden.
- zeveb 6y ago
  Spain: 212,555 Belgium: 320,007 Sweden: 190,186
  - dividedbyzero 6y ago
    Interesting, your numbers are quite different from mine. Where did you get your fatalities data from?
    - zeveb 6y ago
      From https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deat... Just the first Google hit — I didn't do any thorough vetting other than it doesn't appear to be propaganda.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  At the deaths/100k population of Spain, the US would have about 215k deaths. At that of Sweden, about 189k. At that of Belgium, about 286k Numbers from https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality, assuming a US population of 328 million.
  - lancewiggs 6y ago
    And that of New Zealand: 1,640 Meanwhile our obesity and asthma rates are sky high and we are mostly an urban population. But we have a government that moved fast and well, a single payer health care system, and so on.
- slg 6y ago
  Belgium and Sweden are much less populated countries than US, Germany, France, and even Canada. I'm not sure their per capita numbers will translate directly. Sweden has been widely criticized for their response and I think they could also fall in the incompetent government group. I don't know enough about Belgium's response to judge it. Spain was the 3rd country really impacted by COVID-19. Their death rates dropped considerably after their huge initial spike. There was an over month long stretch in which they were in the single digits for deaths per day. I don't think it is fair to judge their response based on total deaths the same way we judge countries that were hit later.
  - nradov 6y ago
    Sweden's initial response may have been incompetent but they have been down at an average of about 1 death per day for weeks now. So whatever they're doing currently seems to be competent. Level of competence per country is not a constant. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
  - jgwil2 6y ago
    Note that Belgium also has one of one of the highest population densities in the world (375/km sq., as opposed to 92 for Spain and 22 for Sweden).
    - nradov 6y ago
      Population densities are largely meaningless at that level. Sweden has a low density only because most of the northern part is wilderness. Most people live in the south, in urban and suburban areas where density is similar to other European countries.
nradov 6y ago
In order to have a valid comparison you would have to adjust the numbers based on age demographics and prevalence of pre-existing conditions. Those factors have a huge impact on death rates. While US federal and state government responses have been incompetent, there are other critical factors such as population density and cultural behaviors. So blaming everything on the government is a "god of the gaps" logical fallacy. And over time I expect death rates to roughly even out over the full span of the pandemic; unless a country can completely eradicate the virus and close their borders, public health measures only delay the deaths rather than preventing. Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve.
- slg 6y ago
  Which is why I put the number at 50,000-150,000. I don't think we should have the exact rate as Germany, but I think it is obvious that demographics don't make up the entire difference between Germany and the US. You can see this by looking at the shape of the graphs for daily deaths. After the peak, the US has basically stuck somewhere between 20-40% of the its peak number. Most other countries were able to get their daily numbers down much further from their initial peak. >And over time I expect death rates to roughly even out over the full span of the pandemic; unless a country can completely eradicate the virus and close their borders, public health measures only delay the deaths rather than preventing. Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve. What evidence is there for this? Which of our peer nations have had the sustained death or a secondary spike that would indicate that herd immunity is going to be the end result of this pandemic rather than societal change until a vaccine exists?
- lisper 6y ago
  > Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve. I don't think that's true. Time delay has a number of actual long-term benefits. Hospitals are less likely to reach capacity. Better treatments can be developed. And, of course, eventually we'll have a vaccine.
zackees 6y ago
We can't trust these stats because the CDC said itself that 94% of the "covid19" deaths had co-morbidity factors. Keep in mind, not a pre-existing condition, a CO-MORBIDITY. As people have been reporting - the hospitals have a huge monetary incentive to code a death as COVID19. If someone comes in and dies, the hospital can run a PCR test, get a false positive then get 10's of thousands for the COVID19 death from the government. My best friend's dad is currently a Doctor and is fighting his hospital after he transferred two patients to a different hospital to try and save their life. One of the patient died, depriving his hospital of the death funds from the government, which the other hospital got. Even the fact checkers are admitting that the [entire incentive structure is to count as many people with covid19 as possible](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-...), but then say "there's no evidence" that there is fraud. A laughable proposition. When there is a bag of money for doing corrupt thing X, corrupt thing X always get's done throughout history. These deaths are therefore the result of mostly fraud and when the real numbers are considered (probably something closer to 15-25% of what's being reported) then this disease is something that lags behind many other diseases currently circulating in the population that the media just ignores.
- slg 6y ago
  Diabetes and Asthma are common comorbidities for COVID-19 deaths. Those conditions traditionally have a very small impact on normal life expectancy all other things being equal. I think you are being thrown off by the "morbidity" part of that word. It is another factor that contributed to the person's death. It doesn't mean the person would have died from that condition absent COVID-19. >These deaths are therefore the result of mostly fraud and when the real numbers are considered (probably something closer to 15-25% of what's being reported) then this disease is something that lags behind many other diseases currently circulating in the population that the media just ignores. If the COVID-19 death total is inflated, how do you explain the huge rise in excess deaths? Here is one article that talks about comorbidities and excess deaths.[1] [1] - https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus-deaths-cdc/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus...
  - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sxp 6y ago
http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ has easy to compare graphs and per-captia information if you want more numbers.
Normille 6y ago
>The number of people in the US who have died due to government incompetence... I don't think the US government has a monopoly on incompetence with regard to the pandemic. We're seeing a massive uptick in cases in the UK at the moment, just a couple of weeks after the government encouraged people to go back to work and re-opened the schools and universities. I live in a university city in UK. Since March we've been told at various times; to work from home if we possibly can, not to leave the area, to only leave the area to visit one other family, to go back to work if we can, to wear masks in indoor spaces, not to mix in groups of more than 12, not to mix in groups of more than 6... etc. etc. No-one seems to know what the regulations actually are from one week to the next... least of all those in charge. Then, in the past couple of weeks, the new university year has come around and our city has had its annual influx of 100000+ students from all over the UK. It's so insane it would be laughable, if it weren't putting lives at risk. You've got the city's inhabits being told to minimise contact with other people and not leave their local area unless absolutely necessary and then, after 6 months of following these guidelines we are suddenly inundated with 100000+ outsiders, from all over the country. And this is happening in university cities up and down the land. If I'd been asked to come up with a scheme to deliberately spread the virus as widely as possible, I'd have been hard pushed to come up with a better one. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere but in the UK there's also an obnoxious 'spin doctoring' effort ongoing on to try and take the blame for the failure to control the outbreak away from government and onto the people. The fact that the UK government were one of the last in Europe to introduce a lockdown; the fact that they've done nothing but chop and change the rules & guidelines ever since, so that no-one actually knows what they are; the fact that the government ordered hundreds of thousands of people back to work, schools and universities while the pandemic was still not properly under control are all brushed under the carpet. Instead, every government announcement on Covid emphasises that tougher measures will be needed if "people don't follow the guidelines". A nice bit of deflection, to blame the victims of their own incompetence for the failure to keep the pandemic under control.
- yread 6y ago
  > not to mix in groups of more than 12, not to mix in groups of more than 6 I always find quibbling over this strange. There is a fucking pandemic. Don't mix in groups of any size if possible no matter what the government says. If you have to meet someone do it online, 1-on-1 or outside. We had a baby 4 months ago and saw in total about 10 people over the months. It's totally doable.
apta 6y ago
Doesn't the US have a much higher rate of obesity compared to those countries, which would skew numbers?
- nradov 6y ago
  Obesity prevalence rates as of 2016: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2228rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... United States: 36% France: 22% Canada: 29% Germany: 22% Adiposity is the Crucial Enhancer of COVID-19: https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/view/1118/1127 https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/vi... If governments were serious about protecting their populations then they would have put more funding into reducing obesity. No matter what pandemic control measures are taken, many of us are eventually going to get infected. So we all ought to be doing whatever it takes to cut body fat down to healthy levels. Our lives may literally depend on it.

by slg 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

christkv 6y ago

Now do Spain, Belgium and Sweden.

zeveb 6y ago
Spain: 212,555 Belgium: 320,007 Sweden: 190,186
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  Interesting, your numbers are quite different from mine. Where did you get your fatalities data from?
  - zeveb 6y ago
    From https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deat... Just the first Google hit — I didn't do any thorough vetting other than it doesn't appear to be propaganda.
dividedbyzero 6y ago
At the deaths/100k population of Spain, the US would have about 215k deaths. At that of Sweden, about 189k. At that of Belgium, about 286k Numbers from https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality, assuming a US population of 328 million.
- lancewiggs 6y ago
  And that of New Zealand: 1,640 Meanwhile our obesity and asthma rates are sky high and we are mostly an urban population. But we have a government that moved fast and well, a single payer health care system, and so on.
slg 6y ago
Belgium and Sweden are much less populated countries than US, Germany, France, and even Canada. I'm not sure their per capita numbers will translate directly. Sweden has been widely criticized for their response and I think they could also fall in the incompetent government group. I don't know enough about Belgium's response to judge it. Spain was the 3rd country really impacted by COVID-19. Their death rates dropped considerably after their huge initial spike. There was an over month long stretch in which they were in the single digits for deaths per day. I don't think it is fair to judge their response based on total deaths the same way we judge countries that were hit later.
- nradov 6y ago
  Sweden's initial response may have been incompetent but they have been down at an average of about 1 death per day for weeks now. So whatever they're doing currently seems to be competent. Level of competence per country is not a constant. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
- jgwil2 6y ago
  Note that Belgium also has one of one of the highest population densities in the world (375/km sq., as opposed to 92 for Spain and 22 for Sweden).
  - nradov 6y ago
    Population densities are largely meaningless at that level. Sweden has a low density only because most of the northern part is wilderness. Most people live in the south, in urban and suburban areas where density is similar to other European countries.

nradov 6y ago

In order to have a valid comparison you would have to adjust the numbers based on age demographics and prevalence of pre-existing conditions. Those factors have a huge impact on death rates. While US federal and state government responses have been incompetent, there are other critical factors such as population density and cultural behaviors. So blaming everything on the government is a "god of the gaps" logical fallacy. And over time I expect death rates to roughly even out over the full span of the pandemic; unless a country can completely eradicate the virus and close their borders, public health measures only delay the deaths rather than preventing. Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve.

slg 6y ago
Which is why I put the number at 50,000-150,000. I don't think we should have the exact rate as Germany, but I think it is obvious that demographics don't make up the entire difference between Germany and the US. You can see this by looking at the shape of the graphs for daily deaths. After the peak, the US has basically stuck somewhere between 20-40% of the its peak number. Most other countries were able to get their daily numbers down much further from their initial peak. >And over time I expect death rates to roughly even out over the full span of the pandemic; unless a country can completely eradicate the virus and close their borders, public health measures only delay the deaths rather than preventing. Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve. What evidence is there for this? Which of our peer nations have had the sustained death or a secondary spike that would indicate that herd immunity is going to be the end result of this pandemic rather than societal change until a vaccine exists?
lisper 6y ago
> Flattening the curve will only slightly decrease the total area under the curve. I don't think that's true. Time delay has a number of actual long-term benefits. Hospitals are less likely to reach capacity. Better treatments can be developed. And, of course, eventually we'll have a vaccine.

zackees 6y ago

We can't trust these stats because the CDC said itself that 94% of the "covid19" deaths had co-morbidity factors. Keep in mind, not a pre-existing condition, a CO-MORBIDITY. As people have been reporting - the hospitals have a huge monetary incentive to code a death as COVID19. If someone comes in and dies, the hospital can run a PCR test, get a false positive then get 10's of thousands for the COVID19 death from the government. My best friend's dad is currently a Doctor and is fighting his hospital after he transferred two patients to a different hospital to try and save their life. One of the patient died, depriving his hospital of the death funds from the government, which the other hospital got. Even the fact checkers are admitting that the [entire incentive structure is to count as many people with covid19 as possible](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-...), but then say "there's no evidence" that there is fraud. A laughable proposition. When there is a bag of money for doing corrupt thing X, corrupt thing X always get's done throughout history. These deaths are therefore the result of mostly fraud and when the real numbers are considered (probably something closer to 15-25% of what's being reported) then this disease is something that lags behind many other diseases currently circulating in the population that the media just ignores.

slg 6y ago
Diabetes and Asthma are common comorbidities for COVID-19 deaths. Those conditions traditionally have a very small impact on normal life expectancy all other things being equal. I think you are being thrown off by the "morbidity" part of that word. It is another factor that contributed to the person's death. It doesn't mean the person would have died from that condition absent COVID-19. >These deaths are therefore the result of mostly fraud and when the real numbers are considered (probably something closer to 15-25% of what's being reported) then this disease is something that lags behind many other diseases currently circulating in the population that the media just ignores. If the COVID-19 death total is inflated, how do you explain the huge rise in excess deaths? Here is one article that talks about comorbidities and excess deaths.[1] [1] - https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus-deaths-cdc/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus...
- 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sxp 6y ago

http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/ has easy to compare graphs and per-captia information if you want more numbers.

Normille 6y ago

>The number of people in the US who have died due to government incompetence... I don't think the US government has a monopoly on incompetence with regard to the pandemic. We're seeing a massive uptick in cases in the UK at the moment, just a couple of weeks after the government encouraged people to go back to work and re-opened the schools and universities. I live in a university city in UK. Since March we've been told at various times; to work from home if we possibly can, not to leave the area, to only leave the area to visit one other family, to go back to work if we can, to wear masks in indoor spaces, not to mix in groups of more than 12, not to mix in groups of more than 6... etc. etc. No-one seems to know what the regulations actually are from one week to the next... least of all those in charge. Then, in the past couple of weeks, the new university year has come around and our city has had its annual influx of 100000+ students from all over the UK. It's so insane it would be laughable, if it weren't putting lives at risk. You've got the city's inhabits being told to minimise contact with other people and not leave their local area unless absolutely necessary and then, after 6 months of following these guidelines we are suddenly inundated with 100000+ outsiders, from all over the country. And this is happening in university cities up and down the land. If I'd been asked to come up with a scheme to deliberately spread the virus as widely as possible, I'd have been hard pushed to come up with a better one. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere but in the UK there's also an obnoxious 'spin doctoring' effort ongoing on to try and take the blame for the failure to control the outbreak away from government and onto the people. The fact that the UK government were one of the last in Europe to introduce a lockdown; the fact that they've done nothing but chop and change the rules & guidelines ever since, so that no-one actually knows what they are; the fact that the government ordered hundreds of thousands of people back to work, schools and universities while the pandemic was still not properly under control are all brushed under the carpet. Instead, every government announcement on Covid emphasises that tougher measures will be needed if "people don't follow the guidelines". A nice bit of deflection, to blame the victims of their own incompetence for the failure to keep the pandemic under control.

yread 6y ago
> not to mix in groups of more than 12, not to mix in groups of more than 6 I always find quibbling over this strange. There is a fucking pandemic. Don't mix in groups of any size if possible no matter what the government says. If you have to meet someone do it online, 1-on-1 or outside. We had a baby 4 months ago and saw in total about 10 people over the months. It's totally doable.

apta 6y ago

Doesn't the US have a much higher rate of obesity compared to those countries, which would skew numbers?

nradov 6y ago
Obesity prevalence rates as of 2016: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2228rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/... United States: 36% France: 22% Canada: 29% Germany: 22% Adiposity is the Crucial Enhancer of COVID-19: https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/view/1118/1127 https://cardiologyres.org/index.php/Cardiologyres/article/vi... If governments were serious about protecting their populations then they would have put more funding into reducing obesity. No matter what pandemic control measures are taken, many of us are eventually going to get infected. So we all ought to be doing whatever it takes to cut body fat down to healthy levels. Our lives may literally depend on it.