5 ms·

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Co... "For 6% of the deaths,

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Co... "For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death." Calling all of these "Covid-19 deaths" is extremely disingenuous. All it means is that someone (may have) had Covid-19 in their system at the time they died. Some states don't even require a positive PCR test to list Covid-19 as a cause of death - just suspicion they might have had it!

just-juan-post 6y ago
Folks you can downvote him all you want but he's right. Almost one third of Covid deaths in July and August 'primarily caused by other conditions' https://www.yahoo.com/news/almost-one-third-covid-deaths-155426293.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/almost-one-third-covid-deaths-155... Source: Oxford University
- d9DM7MLa9U 6y ago
  The article you posted says "It means someone who suffered a heart attack, or even died in a road traffic accident, may have been included in the figures if they had also tested positive for coronavirus at some point, or if doctors believed the virus may have exacerbated their condition." But, the CDC link in the parent post has the detailed breakdown and it has a category for "Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events" and that amounts to 5,930 off the total 179,927. Though there is also a sizable chunk in another category "All other conditions and causes (residual)" which has 88,801 off the total 179,927 (mostly 65+ year olds)
p49k 6y ago
More than 200,000 additional people in the US have died in 2020 compared to this point in 2019. There is no other reasonable explanation for those additional deaths. That makes it abundantly clear that they are COVID-19 related. Hand-wave all you want, you can’t get around this obvious indicator.
- centimeter 6y ago
  According to NHS stats, the vast majority of UK covid deaths would have died in the next 6mo-1yr anyway, due to other conditions they also had. Net effect on annual deaths will probably be small.
  - pureliquidhw 6y ago
    Source?
d9DM7MLa9U 6y ago
Is there a source to the criteria to classify a death to be caused by covid-19 by state?
glial 6y ago
It’s a fair point to say that causality is complicated. But COVID as a cause of death is like a match as a cause for a forest fire. It only has an effect in certain conditions, but when those conditions are in place, it is certainly to blame for triggering the unfortunate event. The question here is: would these people have died when they did if they had not had Covid? (Would the forest have burned if the match had not been lit?) If the answer is “no”, which it probably is in aggregate for cities and states whose death rate has increased since January 2020, then the virus does share at least some of the blame for these deaths. It may even be the proximal cause. Doesn’t mean it’s the only cause, or that people wouldn’t have benefited from a healthier lifestyle. But the implication that these people died from other causes — and would have died anyway when they did - is also disingenuous.
bmcahren 6y ago
If someone had COPD but could have lived 5-20 more years but Covid took them out, you don't want that reported as a Covid-related death? You do realize that the reason why they've had to list Covid-19 as a cause of death when suspected was because of a major shortage of tests still ongoing? Even as late as a month ago, you are refused a test unless you were in close contact with someone who had a positive test. What kind of self-restricting self-limiting bullshit is that? It's like saying you can only buy a car if you can drive to the dealership in your car.
- centimeter 6y ago
  NHS estimates put most people who died with covid as being likely to die within 6mo-1yr anyway, so your “5-20 more years” thought experiment is off by an order of magnitude.
  - dwaltrip 6y ago
    Source?
  - DanBC 6y ago
    I've been unable to find any NHS data that supports your point. https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1 https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1 > Methods: We first estimated YLL from COVID-19 using standard WHO life tables, based on published age/sex data from COVID-19 deaths in Italy. We then used aggregate data on number/type of LTCs to model likely combinations of LTCs among people dying with COVID-19. From these, we used routine UK healthcare data to estimate life expectancy based on age/sex/different combinations of LTCs. We then calculated YLL based on age, sex and type of LTCs and multimorbidity count. > Results: Using the standard WHO life tables, YLL per COVID-19 death was 14 for men and 12 for women. After adjustment for number and type of LTCs, the mean YLL was slightly lower, but remained high (13 and 11 years for men and women, respectively). The number and type of LTCs led to wide variability in the estimated YLL at a given age (e.g. at ≥80 years, YLL was >10 years for people with 0 LTCs, and <3 years for people with ≥6). 14 years for men and 12 years for women. Have a look at the ICNARC data. https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports Of the 10834 patients admitted to ICUs in England and Wales so far the mean age was 58.8. 9580 of these patients were able to live without assistance in daily activities. 1094 had some assistance. Just 40 had total assistance. These are the people most at risk of death (they're ICU patients), but they're not the frail group of 90 year olds that you're making them out to be.
DanBC 6y ago
How do you think they count any other form of death by disease?

just-juan-post 6y ago

Folks you can downvote him all you want but he's right. Almost one third of Covid deaths in July and August 'primarily caused by other conditions' https://www.yahoo.com/news/almost-one-third-covid-deaths-155426293.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/almost-one-third-covid-deaths-155... Source: Oxford University

d9DM7MLa9U 6y ago
The article you posted says "It means someone who suffered a heart attack, or even died in a road traffic accident, may have been included in the figures if they had also tested positive for coronavirus at some point, or if doctors believed the virus may have exacerbated their condition." But, the CDC link in the parent post has the detailed breakdown and it has a category for "Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events" and that amounts to 5,930 off the total 179,927. Though there is also a sizable chunk in another category "All other conditions and causes (residual)" which has 88,801 off the total 179,927 (mostly 65+ year olds)

p49k 6y ago

More than 200,000 additional people in the US have died in 2020 compared to this point in 2019. There is no other reasonable explanation for those additional deaths. That makes it abundantly clear that they are COVID-19 related. Hand-wave all you want, you can’t get around this obvious indicator.

centimeter 6y ago
According to NHS stats, the vast majority of UK covid deaths would have died in the next 6mo-1yr anyway, due to other conditions they also had. Net effect on annual deaths will probably be small.
- pureliquidhw 6y ago
  Source?

d9DM7MLa9U 6y ago

Is there a source to the criteria to classify a death to be caused by covid-19 by state?

glial 6y ago

It’s a fair point to say that causality is complicated. But COVID as a cause of death is like a match as a cause for a forest fire. It only has an effect in certain conditions, but when those conditions are in place, it is certainly to blame for triggering the unfortunate event. The question here is: would these people have died when they did if they had not had Covid? (Would the forest have burned if the match had not been lit?) If the answer is “no”, which it probably is in aggregate for cities and states whose death rate has increased since January 2020, then the virus does share at least some of the blame for these deaths. It may even be the proximal cause. Doesn’t mean it’s the only cause, or that people wouldn’t have benefited from a healthier lifestyle. But the implication that these people died from other causes — and would have died anyway when they did - is also disingenuous.

bmcahren 6y ago

If someone had COPD but could have lived 5-20 more years but Covid took them out, you don't want that reported as a Covid-related death? You do realize that the reason why they've had to list Covid-19 as a cause of death when suspected was because of a major shortage of tests still ongoing? Even as late as a month ago, you are refused a test unless you were in close contact with someone who had a positive test. What kind of self-restricting self-limiting bullshit is that? It's like saying you can only buy a car if you can drive to the dealership in your car.

centimeter 6y ago
NHS estimates put most people who died with covid as being likely to die within 6mo-1yr anyway, so your “5-20 more years” thought experiment is off by an order of magnitude.
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  Source?
- DanBC 6y ago
  I've been unable to find any NHS data that supports your point. https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1 https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1 > Methods: We first estimated YLL from COVID-19 using standard WHO life tables, based on published age/sex data from COVID-19 deaths in Italy. We then used aggregate data on number/type of LTCs to model likely combinations of LTCs among people dying with COVID-19. From these, we used routine UK healthcare data to estimate life expectancy based on age/sex/different combinations of LTCs. We then calculated YLL based on age, sex and type of LTCs and multimorbidity count. > Results: Using the standard WHO life tables, YLL per COVID-19 death was 14 for men and 12 for women. After adjustment for number and type of LTCs, the mean YLL was slightly lower, but remained high (13 and 11 years for men and women, respectively). The number and type of LTCs led to wide variability in the estimated YLL at a given age (e.g. at ≥80 years, YLL was >10 years for people with 0 LTCs, and <3 years for people with ≥6). 14 years for men and 12 years for women. Have a look at the ICNARC data. https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports https://www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports Of the 10834 patients admitted to ICUs in England and Wales so far the mean age was 58.8. 9580 of these patients were able to live without assistance in daily activities. 1094 had some assistance. Just 40 had total assistance. These are the people most at risk of death (they're ICU patients), but they're not the frail group of 90 year olds that you're making them out to be.

DanBC 6y ago

How do you think they count any other form of death by disease?