3 ms·

I have a hard time taking Johnathan Blow seriously when it comes to PL design.

eindiran 6y ago
I don't know anything about Johnathan Blow, so could you explain why you have a hard time taking him seriously about PL design?
- the_hoser 6y ago
  Because I can't download a compiler for his language and try out his ideas. I've designed fantasy programming languages, too, but you don't see me telling everyone on the internet that will listen to me about them, dragging other PL designers that have actually released working code through the mud as I do. It's a simple matter of put up or shut up.
  - anoncareer0212 6y ago
    I neither know Jonathan Blow, nor understand why he must create a programming language to critique them - is he someone who works on programming languages as his day job, for some time, yet somehow has avoided enforcing his opinions on himself?
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      He's a video game designer.
    - cyphar 6y ago
      He's a video game designer who announced a new programming language called "Jai" in 2014, and no compiler has yet been released for it (but he discusses new language features on his Twitch stream)[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blow
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - stusmall 6y ago
      It's more the issue that he has one that has worked on in private. He hasn't released a version publicly. Someone earlier in the thread was saying the fact that he has designed a language means he is worth listening to where the counter argument is does it really count if he's never released it and no one really uses it?
  - gpm 6y ago
    He demonstrably has a working compiler and programming language. Calling it a "fantasy" just because he has not given you full access to the source is plain incorrect. He streams so much of his development work on the compiler that a determined party could probably reproduce it by just copying the text from his text editor. He streams so much of his game development using the compiler that it obviously and unambiguously works - and so long as you know all the idiosyncrasies of the language (a big caveat) works reasonably well. He has put up, just not in the medium that you would prefer. You have not, so perhaps you should take the second half of your advice.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. But, let's say he does have a working compiler. It's very probable that he does. Why doesn't he release it, then? Well you see, the only way it's possible to really effectively criticize a programming language is to use it. By not releasing the compiler, he avoids real criticism. So, no, I don't take him seriously on PL design. At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud.
      - gpm 6y ago
        > I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to be able to respond to audience feedback, and so on and so forth. (Oh, and interactive 3d programs not just text to a terminal). That's a lot harder than making a programming language. > Why doesn't he release it, then? Because he doesn't think public feedback would be helpful at this time. Because he wants to release software that he can take pride in instead of a alpha level programming language. Because that's what he is used to from game development. Because he feels like it. Etc. Why does it matter? You aren't entitled to it.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you to listen.
    - leshow 6y ago
      I think it's toxic to suggest your way or ideas are better without giving people any way to verify that they are. Of course anyone can have an opinion about anything.
      - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
        Doesn't that attitude make your comment toxic? The dude's allowed to share ideas.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        "Better" is subjective, not something that can be verified. But anyway, people do have a way to try out an idea: they can implement it themselves!
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      I do ignore him. I was only pointing out that I don't take him seriously, in response to referencing him.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Take him however you wish; I don't follow him or know the backstory here. But adopting a "put up or shut up" attitude makes it less likely that people excited about something will share it, especially if they're newer or less experienced. That sucks. We should try to make the tech community a welcoming place that fosters enthusiasm.
      - 6y ago
- leshow 6y ago
  I wasn't familiar with him and found this video where he seems to say a lot of things that are kind of sketchy about concurrent programming at the very start of the video: https://youtu.be/hjvtzriNlMU https://youtu.be/hjvtzriNlMU
- hardwaregeek 6y ago
  I'm not as dismissive to jblow, but I am frustrated with his model of development and the inflated expectations that come with it. It's quite likely that Jai will be a great language but it won't be the silver bullet some seem to think that it is. There's nothing more annoying than talking about the tradeoffs between compile time and static analysis only for someone to say "but Jai solved it" (and yes, I have conversations with people who do say this). Imagine I had a startup and kept on posting about how amazing my product was and how everybody was going to find it revolutionary, and maybe I even shared a few streams of me using it, but I didn't release. And this continued for like, 6 years. Wouldn't you get a little suspicious? Even if I was running a closed beta. Even if I had a proven track record. Writing a language and keeping it locked up while you perfect it just isn't a great model of development. Languages are not just the compiler and the corresponding features. They're tooling and infrastructure. They're libraries. They're communities. It may be wonderful to work sans the usual politics of open source, but you're not gonna end up making a language that people use. And maybe that's not jblow's goal. Maybe he just wants a language for himself. Well, good for him. But that seems a little sad. Programming languages are some of the most generous, wonderful gifts to the CS world. If I were him, I'd hate to see my language die with me.
adamnemecek 6y ago
You should take him seriously, he has some really good ideas.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  He has some really good fantasies. But all he has is words.
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    I mean the Jai language seems to be real.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - kolbe 6y ago
    I know nothing about the discussion of whoever this dude is, but I am very impressed that HN hasn’t rate limited your comments with all the grey I’m seeing.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      Right? It appears that the sweeping downvoters are out, too. It's only a matter of time, I suppose.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  You got a link where I can download the compiler for the Jai language?
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    I have watched the streams.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
TheRealSteel 6y ago
I don't think it's reasonable to make a comment like this without explaining why. He has designed a programming language, so it seems fair to assume he'd have an understanding of programming language design.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  You got a link for the compiler for said programming language?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ratww 6y ago
    I'm also not a fan of closed-source compilers (or fully closed, even worse), but it's unfair to disregard his work and opinions just because it's not publicly available. Regardless of that, this is not a discussion about compilers or compiler design/programming, but rather about PL design, which are two different areas and disciplines.
    - the_hoser 6y ago
      I'd even take a closed-source compiler. The problem is that, ultimately, he's effectively throwing rocks from a glass house, but he denies us the rocks to throw back. I just can't take him seriously.
      - dgellow 6y ago
        It's currently in private beta as far as I remember from his Twitter timeline.
  - spatulon 6y ago
    Can you think of a less snarky way of saying that he hasn't released it publicly yet?
dang 6y ago
You started a flamewar and fueled it with 35 comments. That's beyond the pale. In fact, it makes me wonder what the record is for a single user in a flamewar on HN. Can you please not do this again? I appreciate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548161, but vandalism is not a good way to pass the time. Not arson either. You did the same thing in other threads today too (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544124). We ban accounts that do this, or at a minimum rate limit them. I'm not going to do those things right now, but if you do it again we'll have to. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24547322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24547322.
- the_hoser 6y ago
  Well, it was never my intention to do something that you would consider vandalism.
  - dang 6y ago
    I know that, which is why I didn't rate limit or ban your account. These things mostly happen unintentionally. The thing is, though, we have to judge them by their effects, not intentions, since it's the effects that have...effects. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=troll%20effects%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... You're a good HN user and the only thing that's needed here is a bit more mindfulness. I like the 'arson' analogy for this sort of thing, except it's the wrong word since it implies intent. The right analogy is not arson, but negligence, i.e. playing with fire for fun or what have you, but then it burns down the building. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this thread. It's perfectly good watercooler conversation. That's part of the original intention for HN (let me dig up an old pg link...ah yes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8314). We all enjoy talking smack with coworkers or friends—same way one might argue about whether so-and-so is a good athlete or actor or whatever. On that level, what you did wasn't wrong at all, it's perfectly fine and good fun. The issue is just that this particular watercooler gets broadcasted to millions of people, which suddenly makes for completely different dynamics. For example, the person you're talking about may well read the thread, which may sour them on HN and make them less likely to participate here, which would impoverish the site for all of us. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ever post criticism, but it should be alloyed with respect, and if the thread starts to turn into a cage match, you should do something to try to walk it back. (By "you" I don't mean you personally, but all of us.) The biggest issue, though, are the feedback loops that happen when you're no longer talking to a couple people you already have good connections with, but an entire crowd of people who you have zero connections with. Your comments are guaranteed to get interpreted in ways that you not only didn't intend, but would find horrifying and would never dream of meaning. A lot of dark stuff flows in that way. Then people read it and feel licensed to start doing the same and worse—why not, if that's the kind of place this is? This is how internet forums decay, and the decay is exponential, so we have to be proactive about not letting that happen. That also is one of the founding intentions of HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html. Unfortunately, this does mean we need to have more restrained conversation than would be most enjoyable in a small group. People instinctively do this when talking to large groups, but HN is a large group that feels like a small group, so those instincts don't kick in. And of course it's also one of the best things about HN that it feels like a small group. Past comments about this, if anyone wants a fuller picture: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=rugby%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

I don't know anything about Johnathan Blow, so could you explain why you have a hard time taking him seriously about PL design?

the_hoser 6y ago
Because I can't download a compiler for his language and try out his ideas. I've designed fantasy programming languages, too, but you don't see me telling everyone on the internet that will listen to me about them, dragging other PL designers that have actually released working code through the mud as I do. It's a simple matter of put up or shut up.
- anoncareer0212 6y ago
  I neither know Jonathan Blow, nor understand why he must create a programming language to critique them - is he someone who works on programming languages as his day job, for some time, yet somehow has avoided enforcing his opinions on himself?
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    He's a video game designer.
  - cyphar 6y ago
    He's a video game designer who announced a new programming language called "Jai" in 2014, and no compiler has yet been released for it (but he discusses new language features on his Twitch stream)[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blow
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - stusmall 6y ago
    It's more the issue that he has one that has worked on in private. He hasn't released a version publicly. Someone earlier in the thread was saying the fact that he has designed a language means he is worth listening to where the counter argument is does it really count if he's never released it and no one really uses it?
- gpm 6y ago
  He demonstrably has a working compiler and programming language. Calling it a "fantasy" just because he has not given you full access to the source is plain incorrect. He streams so much of his development work on the compiler that a determined party could probably reproduce it by just copying the text from his text editor. He streams so much of his game development using the compiler that it obviously and unambiguously works - and so long as you know all the idiosyncrasies of the language (a big caveat) works reasonably well. He has put up, just not in the medium that you would prefer. You have not, so perhaps you should take the second half of your advice.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. He hasn't demonstrated squat. But, let's say he does have a working compiler. It's very probable that he does. Why doesn't he release it, then? Well you see, the only way it's possible to really effectively criticize a programming language is to use it. By not releasing the compiler, he avoids real criticism. So, no, I don't take him seriously on PL design. At best, he's scared of criticism, but wants to be able to criticize others. At worst, he's a fraud.
    - gpm 6y ago
      > I can make a python script that prints out stuff while I'm streaming, too. I really doubt this. The amount of effort and acting that would need to go into being able to script in advance the sort of mistakes you make when programming would be astronomic. You would have to never make a typo when you weren't supposed to, always make a typo when you are, somehow deal with the fact that when you get stuck you need to be able to respond to audience feedback, and so on and so forth. (Oh, and interactive 3d programs not just text to a terminal). That's a lot harder than making a programming language. > Why doesn't he release it, then? Because he doesn't think public feedback would be helpful at this time. Because he wants to release software that he can take pride in instead of a alpha level programming language. Because that's what he is used to from game development. Because he feels like it. Etc. Why does it matter? You aren't entitled to it.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  I think that's a really toxic attitude. My thoughts about programming languages are still valid, even though I've never made one of my own. I have opinions about what works and what doesn't, based on experience using programming languages, and just because I haven't actually tried to write a compiler doesn't mean I should "shut up" about it. If you don't like his ideas (or him) just ignore them. No one's forcing you to listen.
  - leshow 6y ago
    I think it's toxic to suggest your way or ideas are better without giving people any way to verify that they are. Of course anyone can have an opinion about anything.
    - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
      Doesn't that attitude make your comment toxic? The dude's allowed to share ideas.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      "Better" is subjective, not something that can be verified. But anyway, people do have a way to try out an idea: they can implement it themselves!
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    I do ignore him. I was only pointing out that I don't take him seriously, in response to referencing him.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Take him however you wish; I don't follow him or know the backstory here. But adopting a "put up or shut up" attitude makes it less likely that people excited about something will share it, especially if they're newer or less experienced. That sucks. We should try to make the tech community a welcoming place that fosters enthusiasm.
    - 6y ago
leshow 6y ago
I wasn't familiar with him and found this video where he seems to say a lot of things that are kind of sketchy about concurrent programming at the very start of the video: https://youtu.be/hjvtzriNlMU https://youtu.be/hjvtzriNlMU
hardwaregeek 6y ago
I'm not as dismissive to jblow, but I am frustrated with his model of development and the inflated expectations that come with it. It's quite likely that Jai will be a great language but it won't be the silver bullet some seem to think that it is. There's nothing more annoying than talking about the tradeoffs between compile time and static analysis only for someone to say "but Jai solved it" (and yes, I have conversations with people who do say this). Imagine I had a startup and kept on posting about how amazing my product was and how everybody was going to find it revolutionary, and maybe I even shared a few streams of me using it, but I didn't release. And this continued for like, 6 years. Wouldn't you get a little suspicious? Even if I was running a closed beta. Even if I had a proven track record. Writing a language and keeping it locked up while you perfect it just isn't a great model of development. Languages are not just the compiler and the corresponding features. They're tooling and infrastructure. They're libraries. They're communities. It may be wonderful to work sans the usual politics of open source, but you're not gonna end up making a language that people use. And maybe that's not jblow's goal. Maybe he just wants a language for himself. Well, good for him. But that seems a little sad. Programming languages are some of the most generous, wonderful gifts to the CS world. If I were him, I'd hate to see my language die with me.

adamnemecek 6y ago

You should take him seriously, he has some really good ideas.

the_hoser 6y ago
He has some really good fantasies. But all he has is words.
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  I mean the Jai language seems to be real.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- kolbe 6y ago
  I know nothing about the discussion of whoever this dude is, but I am very impressed that HN hasn’t rate limited your comments with all the grey I’m seeing.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    Right? It appears that the sweeping downvoters are out, too. It's only a matter of time, I suppose.
the_hoser 6y ago
You got a link where I can download the compiler for the Jai language?
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  I have watched the streams.
  - the_hoser 6y ago

TheRealSteel 6y ago

I don't think it's reasonable to make a comment like this without explaining why. He has designed a programming language, so it seems fair to assume he'd have an understanding of programming language design.

the_hoser 6y ago
You got a link for the compiler for said programming language?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ratww 6y ago
  I'm also not a fan of closed-source compilers (or fully closed, even worse), but it's unfair to disregard his work and opinions just because it's not publicly available. Regardless of that, this is not a discussion about compilers or compiler design/programming, but rather about PL design, which are two different areas and disciplines.
  - the_hoser 6y ago
    I'd even take a closed-source compiler. The problem is that, ultimately, he's effectively throwing rocks from a glass house, but he denies us the rocks to throw back. I just can't take him seriously.
    - dgellow 6y ago
      It's currently in private beta as far as I remember from his Twitter timeline.
- spatulon 6y ago
  Can you think of a less snarky way of saying that he hasn't released it publicly yet?

dang 6y ago

You started a flamewar and fueled it with 35 comments. That's beyond the pale. In fact, it makes me wonder what the record is for a single user in a flamewar on HN. Can you please not do this again? I appreciate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548161, but vandalism is not a good way to pass the time. Not arson either. You did the same thing in other threads today too (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544124 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544124). We ban accounts that do this, or at a minimum rate limit them. I'm not going to do those things right now, but if you do it again we'll have to. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24547322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24547322.

the_hoser 6y ago
Well, it was never my intention to do something that you would consider vandalism.
- dang 6y ago
  I know that, which is why I didn't rate limit or ban your account. These things mostly happen unintentionally. The thing is, though, we have to judge them by their effects, not intentions, since it's the effects that have...effects. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=troll%20effects%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... You're a good HN user and the only thing that's needed here is a bit more mindfulness. I like the 'arson' analogy for this sort of thing, except it's the wrong word since it implies intent. The right analogy is not arson, but negligence, i.e. playing with fire for fun or what have you, but then it burns down the building. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this thread. It's perfectly good watercooler conversation. That's part of the original intention for HN (let me dig up an old pg link...ah yes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8314). We all enjoy talking smack with coworkers or friends—same way one might argue about whether so-and-so is a good athlete or actor or whatever. On that level, what you did wasn't wrong at all, it's perfectly fine and good fun. The issue is just that this particular watercooler gets broadcasted to millions of people, which suddenly makes for completely different dynamics. For example, the person you're talking about may well read the thread, which may sour them on HN and make them less likely to participate here, which would impoverish the site for all of us. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ever post criticism, but it should be alloyed with respect, and if the thread starts to turn into a cage match, you should do something to try to walk it back. (By "you" I don't mean you personally, but all of us.) The biggest issue, though, are the feedback loops that happen when you're no longer talking to a couple people you already have good connections with, but an entire crowd of people who you have zero connections with. Your comments are guaranteed to get interpreted in ways that you not only didn't intend, but would find horrifying and would never dream of meaning. A lot of dark stuff flows in that way. Then people read it and feel licensed to start doing the same and worse—why not, if that's the kind of place this is? This is how internet forums decay, and the decay is exponential, so we have to be proactive about not letting that happen. That also is one of the founding intentions of HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html. Unfortunately, this does mean we need to have more restrained conversation than would be most enjoyable in a small group. People instinctively do this when talking to large groups, but HN is a large group that feels like a small group, so those instincts don't kick in. And of course it's also one of the best things about HN that it feels like a small group. Past comments about this, if anyone wants a fuller picture: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=rugby%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...