8 ms·

St Helena laws for inhabitants 1672

59 points by Thevet 6y ago

smegcicle 6y ago
Wholesome, a simpler time- even from the intro where the term 'called' is used as 'popped in', is that a maritime term or are they just being old fashioned?
- whyenot 6y ago
  Yes, the fact that the term "everyone" was used to refer to free men is absolutely charming. Unless you were a slave or a woman.
- adamjb 6y ago
  It's a maritime term, as used in the idiom "port of call".
- danellis 6y ago
  That doesn't even seem old fashioned. It's the same sense as, "I'm coming home, but I'll call at the store on the way."
  - smegcicle 6y ago
    is that still common in UK English? in contemporary US English 'call' seems almost exclusively used for 'telephone calls', i imagine a good proportion of the population being unfamiliar with the idea of 'call' indicating a physical appearance of any sort
- corford 6y ago
  In the UK "popped in" is still used a lot e.g. "I popped in to Tesco on the way home"
sthnblllII 6y ago
Sounds like fascism.
mda 6y ago
Sounds like hell.
- throwawayasdf1 6y ago
  better than living in europe in the aftermath of the 30 years war, where up to 50% of the population died in some areas. these settlers were effectively chancing disease (p to 50% fatality rates on voyages were common) and wilderness instead of nearly certain persecution and war
Proven 6y ago
Apart from the slavery, that's better than today. Taxes were probably much lower too.
nradov 6y ago
Were the laws actually enforced and followed?
- throwawayasdf1 6y ago
  laws in the british empire were enforced, and followed almost religiously. The HMS bounty is about the only time anyone has openly mutinied against the empire and kept their life and freedom, or perhaps the US in 1776 consider that the rum rebellion was put down in australia in 1810 by the royal navy, or the Wager mutiny - the survivors of a shipwreck/mutiny on the south coast of Chile in 1741 were court martialled in London a few years later. A sailor in those days even in a place as far flung as china or south africa would reasonably fear ending up being hanged in london
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > laws in the british empire were enforced, and followed almost religiously. No, they weren't. The upper classes, both aristocratic and capitalist, in particular, has quite a bit of license in practice that wasn't on the books. > The HMS bounty is about the only time anyone has openly mutinied against the empire and kept their life and freedom, Yeah, you'll find most governments, especially ones that otherwise grant a pass to elites, take rebellion/mutiny quite seriously.
    - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
      Even among ordinary people, the default system was limited (if not selective) enforcement. There were a lot of capital crimes, but even assuming someone who committed one of them was caught (before the introduction of police forces or detectives) and convicted (before the introduction of state prosecutors), they would often be pardoned or receive a lighter sentence. Juries also had a role to play. For instance, at one stage you could be hanged for stealing property with a value of more than 40 shillings. There was at least one case where a jury convicted someone of stealing property to a total value of 39 shillings, even though what he stole included more than 40 shillings in cash!
throwawaynothx 6y ago
It is an offence to be in possession of more than 50kg of potatoes in WA, unless you have purchased the potatoes from a grower or retailer authorised by the Potato Corporation. Police also have the power to stop and search a vehicle suspected of carrying more than 50kg of potatoes. The maximum penalty is a $2,000 fine for a first offence or a $5,000 fine for subsequent offences, as well as a further penalty up to twice the value of the potatoes [Section 22, Marketing of Potatoes Act 1946 (WA)].
- xenospn 6y ago
  Why is it in kg if it’s in the US?
  - sb057 6y ago
    The United States has technically been on the metric system since 1975. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Conversion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Conversion_Act
    - lloeki 6y ago
      Voluntarily so, and in 1988 “preferred ... for trade and commerce.”
  - d99kris 6y ago
    WA here is likely Western Australia. https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-to-be-in-possession-of-more-than-50kg-of-potatoes-in-Australia https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-to-be-in-possession-of-m...
    - samatman 6y ago
      Yes if the intention was Washington state, I daresay it would have been described as an "offense".
    - monkeycantype 6y ago
      It was previously common in Australia for the government to form independent 'single desks' that would have a monopoly on buying or selling a particular agricultural commodity with the intention that this would provide better prices for farmers on average over time. (you could still buy potatoes at the supermarket, but you were not allowed to sell a ship of potatoes) Of course if the single desk is paying you the farmer, better than market prices during a glut, when the market picks up, the single desk is going to have to pay down it's debt and (and Saddam Hussein) before it pays you. This is one of many scenarios under which a bear market socialist might feel a longing for the free market stirring in their soul, and the potato act is the big stick that kept farmers from cutting their own deals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_desk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_desk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWB_oil-for-wheat_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWB_oil-for-wheat_scandal
beaner 6y ago
I think the idea of laws whose purpose was to "prevent idleness" is interesting. Curious: Does this have some unexpected historical meaning? What was the justification for such laws? It seems today that Western society's whole goal is to increase our option for idleness. Can we learn something from the past regarding this?
- hbosch 6y ago
  > It seems today that Western society's whole goal is to increase our option for idleness. Can you please invite me to your Western society that celebrates idleness? In my Western society, we spend the first 22 years of our lives training to work for another 40 years before we can comfortably enter "idleness" at around age 65 for most people. I think that for a long time "idleness" is stigmatized as "uselessness", and that by doing nothing you are not contributing to the wellbeing of the colony/civilization/society. That's likely even more true for a burgeoning settlement or young country, but still true today in almost every culture in the world.
  - danellis 6y ago
    > Can you please invite me to your Western society that celebrates idleness? You don't need an invitation to visit Western Europe, but I'd wait a few months.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      Sorry if we didn't answer your call in August, we were on vacation. We're working again now, though. Just don't call during lunch. The kinds of greeks and romans who wrote stuff down that people kept were into σχολή and otium, respectively. a sixteenth century telling of an anecdote from about a millennium earlier: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k70135b/f1013.image.r=essais%20essais https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k70135b/f1013.image.r=... > "Eſope vit ſon maiſtre qui piſſoit en ſe promenant, quoy donq, fit-il, nous faudra-il chier en courant."
      - 6y ago
bambax 6y ago
> Inhabitants should endeavour to live in love and unity. Anyone bickering, brawling, or slandering neighbours would be severely punished. Compulsory love under threat of severe punishment. Many modern communities seem to still believe this can be achieved. I doubt it.

59 points by Thevet 6y ago

Wholesome, a simpler time- even from the intro where the term 'called' is used as 'popped in', is that a maritime term or are they just being old fashioned?

whyenot 6y ago
Yes, the fact that the term "everyone" was used to refer to free men is absolutely charming. Unless you were a slave or a woman.
adamjb 6y ago
It's a maritime term, as used in the idiom "port of call".
danellis 6y ago
That doesn't even seem old fashioned. It's the same sense as, "I'm coming home, but I'll call at the store on the way."
- smegcicle 6y ago
  is that still common in UK English? in contemporary US English 'call' seems almost exclusively used for 'telephone calls', i imagine a good proportion of the population being unfamiliar with the idea of 'call' indicating a physical appearance of any sort
corford 6y ago
In the UK "popped in" is still used a lot e.g. "I popped in to Tesco on the way home"

sthnblllII 6y ago

Sounds like fascism.

mda 6y ago

Sounds like hell.

throwawayasdf1 6y ago
better than living in europe in the aftermath of the 30 years war, where up to 50% of the population died in some areas. these settlers were effectively chancing disease (p to 50% fatality rates on voyages were common) and wilderness instead of nearly certain persecution and war

Proven 6y ago

Apart from the slavery, that's better than today. Taxes were probably much lower too.

nradov 6y ago

Were the laws actually enforced and followed?

throwawayasdf1 6y ago
laws in the british empire were enforced, and followed almost religiously. The HMS bounty is about the only time anyone has openly mutinied against the empire and kept their life and freedom, or perhaps the US in 1776 consider that the rum rebellion was put down in australia in 1810 by the royal navy, or the Wager mutiny - the survivors of a shipwreck/mutiny on the south coast of Chile in 1741 were court martialled in London a few years later. A sailor in those days even in a place as far flung as china or south africa would reasonably fear ending up being hanged in london
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > laws in the british empire were enforced, and followed almost religiously. No, they weren't. The upper classes, both aristocratic and capitalist, in particular, has quite a bit of license in practice that wasn't on the books. > The HMS bounty is about the only time anyone has openly mutinied against the empire and kept their life and freedom, Yeah, you'll find most governments, especially ones that otherwise grant a pass to elites, take rebellion/mutiny quite seriously.
  - Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
    Even among ordinary people, the default system was limited (if not selective) enforcement. There were a lot of capital crimes, but even assuming someone who committed one of them was caught (before the introduction of police forces or detectives) and convicted (before the introduction of state prosecutors), they would often be pardoned or receive a lighter sentence. Juries also had a role to play. For instance, at one stage you could be hanged for stealing property with a value of more than 40 shillings. There was at least one case where a jury convicted someone of stealing property to a total value of 39 shillings, even though what he stole included more than 40 shillings in cash!

throwawaynothx 6y ago

It is an offence to be in possession of more than 50kg of potatoes in WA, unless you have purchased the potatoes from a grower or retailer authorised by the Potato Corporation. Police also have the power to stop and search a vehicle suspected of carrying more than 50kg of potatoes. The maximum penalty is a $2,000 fine for a first offence or a $5,000 fine for subsequent offences, as well as a further penalty up to twice the value of the potatoes [Section 22, Marketing of Potatoes Act 1946 (WA)].

xenospn 6y ago
Why is it in kg if it’s in the US?
- sb057 6y ago
  The United States has technically been on the metric system since 1975. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Conversion_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Conversion_Act
  - lloeki 6y ago
    Voluntarily so, and in 1988 “preferred ... for trade and commerce.”
- d99kris 6y ago
  WA here is likely Western Australia. https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-to-be-in-possession-of-more-than-50kg-of-potatoes-in-Australia https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-to-be-in-possession-of-m...
  - samatman 6y ago
    Yes if the intention was Washington state, I daresay it would have been described as an "offense".
  - monkeycantype 6y ago
    It was previously common in Australia for the government to form independent 'single desks' that would have a monopoly on buying or selling a particular agricultural commodity with the intention that this would provide better prices for farmers on average over time. (you could still buy potatoes at the supermarket, but you were not allowed to sell a ship of potatoes) Of course if the single desk is paying you the farmer, better than market prices during a glut, when the market picks up, the single desk is going to have to pay down it's debt and (and Saddam Hussein) before it pays you. This is one of many scenarios under which a bear market socialist might feel a longing for the free market stirring in their soul, and the potato act is the big stick that kept farmers from cutting their own deals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_desk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_desk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWB_oil-for-wheat_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWB_oil-for-wheat_scandal

beaner 6y ago

I think the idea of laws whose purpose was to "prevent idleness" is interesting. Curious: Does this have some unexpected historical meaning? What was the justification for such laws? It seems today that Western society's whole goal is to increase our option for idleness. Can we learn something from the past regarding this?

hbosch 6y ago
> It seems today that Western society's whole goal is to increase our option for idleness. Can you please invite me to your Western society that celebrates idleness? In my Western society, we spend the first 22 years of our lives training to work for another 40 years before we can comfortably enter "idleness" at around age 65 for most people. I think that for a long time "idleness" is stigmatized as "uselessness", and that by doing nothing you are not contributing to the wellbeing of the colony/civilization/society. That's likely even more true for a burgeoning settlement or young country, but still true today in almost every culture in the world.
- danellis 6y ago
  > Can you please invite me to your Western society that celebrates idleness? You don't need an invitation to visit Western Europe, but I'd wait a few months.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Sorry if we didn't answer your call in August, we were on vacation. We're working again now, though. Just don't call during lunch. The kinds of greeks and romans who wrote stuff down that people kept were into σχολή and otium, respectively. a sixteenth century telling of an anecdote from about a millennium earlier: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k70135b/f1013.image.r=essais%20essais https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k70135b/f1013.image.r=... > "Eſope vit ſon maiſtre qui piſſoit en ſe promenant, quoy donq, fit-il, nous faudra-il chier en courant."
    - 6y ago

bambax 6y ago

> Inhabitants should endeavour to live in love and unity. Anyone bickering, brawling, or slandering neighbours would be severely punished. Compulsory love under threat of severe punishment. Many modern communities seem to still believe this can be achieved. I doubt it.