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I'm surprised that GraalVM is not mentioned. I have strong suspicions that Oracle is lining up Graal to become the next default JVM, after watching some talks f

I'm surprised that GraalVM is not mentioned. I have strong suspicions that Oracle is lining up Graal to become the next default JVM, after watching some talks from core developers describing how fragile the Hotspot codebase has become. Graal would be a good way to encourage ML, given it has language support for Python. Perhaps Graal is just not ready for Oracle to show all of their cards at this point. Or perhaps my theory is incorrect.

pulse7 6y ago
They still need some more time with GraalVM. Currently you need Microsoft's C++ Compiler in order to use GraalVM on Windows. They will need time to polish these things... But GraalVM performance is already on par with HotSpot - with better startup times!
- e12e 6y ago
  > Currently you need Microsoft's C++ Compiler in order to use GraalVM on Windows No need for xcode on os x or gcc on Linux, or clang on bsds?
  - pulse7 6y ago
    You need xcode on OS/X and gcc on Linux. See here: https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/#prerequisites https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/#prere...
    - e12e 6y ago
      Maybe I misunderstood your post then - why is needing the platform c++ compiler an issue on windows, but not mac/linux?
      - pulse7 6y ago
        It is an issue for all platforms - I just mentioned Windows, because I work on Windows. And the issue is: Why do I need a C++ compiler if I would like to develop in Java?
chrisseaton 6y ago
> I'm surprised that GraalVM is not mentioned. Java and GraalVM come from two different parts of the company. They're aren't done by the same people.
pjmlp 6y ago
No need for suspicions, that is officially known as Project Metropolis.
thu2111 6y ago
GraalVM is HotSpot. The SubstrateVM used in native-image has a lot of limitations and performance that can match regular HotSpot with C2 is something you have to pay for. HotSpot is a pretty great codebase actually. It's very easy to read compared to the CLR. The issue with it isn't that it's bad code or fragile, it's just that it's very complex, but they're reducing complexity over time by removing obsolete optimisations (obsolete, or so they argue). The SVM codebase is also nice but it's a very different model. Over time the codebases may be merging, as Graal the compiler gradually replaces C2. But that could easily take a decade.

pulse7 6y ago

They still need some more time with GraalVM. Currently you need Microsoft's C++ Compiler in order to use GraalVM on Windows. They will need time to polish these things... But GraalVM performance is already on par with HotSpot - with better startup times!

e12e 6y ago
> Currently you need Microsoft's C++ Compiler in order to use GraalVM on Windows No need for xcode on os x or gcc on Linux, or clang on bsds?
- pulse7 6y ago
  You need xcode on OS/X and gcc on Linux. See here: https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/#prerequisites https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/#prere...
  - e12e 6y ago
    Maybe I misunderstood your post then - why is needing the platform c++ compiler an issue on windows, but not mac/linux?
    - pulse7 6y ago
      It is an issue for all platforms - I just mentioned Windows, because I work on Windows. And the issue is: Why do I need a C++ compiler if I would like to develop in Java?

chrisseaton 6y ago

> I'm surprised that GraalVM is not mentioned. Java and GraalVM come from two different parts of the company. They're aren't done by the same people.

pjmlp 6y ago

No need for suspicions, that is officially known as Project Metropolis.

thu2111 6y ago

GraalVM is HotSpot. The SubstrateVM used in native-image has a lot of limitations and performance that can match regular HotSpot with C2 is something you have to pay for. HotSpot is a pretty great codebase actually. It's very easy to read compared to the CLR. The issue with it isn't that it's bad code or fragile, it's just that it's very complex, but they're reducing complexity over time by removing obsolete optimisations (obsolete, or so they argue). The SVM codebase is also nice but it's a very different model. Over time the codebases may be merging, as Graal the compiler gradually replaces C2. But that could easily take a decade.