7 ms·

Well that just messed with my head. For some reason (advertising? confusion? stupidity?) I had thought that Gore-Tex was based on a special weaving technique an

by hansvs 6y ago

Well that just messed with my head. For some reason (advertising? confusion? stupidity?) I had thought that Gore-Tex was based on a special weaving technique and use of special acrylic fibres... Wikipedia says `It is composed of stretched polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), which is more commonly known by the generic trademark Teflon.` Damn....

specialist 6y ago
Ya, I felt truly stupid once I realized Gore-Tex is Teflon. REI is gonna need a makeover once this catches on. Since learning about micro plastics from fabrics polluting our waterways, I'm keen to find alternatives. I had an Australian style rain coat (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) as a kid. I couldn't find anything comparable locally. Meanwhile, I got one of those fisherman jackets. I sweat so much, the only benefit I get is wind protection.
- hvs 6y ago
  Waxed canvas is used a lot for woodworking aprons. I'd look for a waxed canvas rain coat.
  - jowiar 6y ago
    Barbour is probably the most well-known waxed canvas jacket. They’re great, especially in areas where rain comes suddenly.
- cnasc 6y ago
  > (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) Barbour?
  - Bayart 6y ago
    Or Belstaff. Even Aigle makes pretty good waxed jackets on occasion. But one of the best materials for rain is still... wool.
    - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
      I have had several wool coats and none of them have been at all rain repellent. I’ve also worn many pure wool jumpers and hats in the rain, again none of them holding off anything more than the lightest drizzle. What sort of wool is good for keeping off the rain? Edit: Wearing (only) a damp wool jumper is fine if you’re up a mountain and it’s not too windy or freezing cold, but I’d still prefer to be dry!
      - mod 6y ago
        Not the GP, so not sure what he was specifically talking about, but wool is known for retaining its insulative value even when wet. Yes, you're wet, but you're still warm. Many outdoorsmen prefer this to the uncertainty of being able to keep their gear dry.
        Bayart 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm talking about. By thick rainy weather I love nothing more than a coarse knitted woolen sweater and a heavy tweed jacket. It's warm, breathable and I'll never stay so long under the rain that it's soaked. As far as strictly waterproofing goes, you do need coating or some hybrid material with PU weaved in. IMO it's more useful as a wind barrier than anything else.
        Thlom 6y ago
        This is why you always use layers with wool closest to the skin.
- unwind 6y ago
  Look for Swedish outdoor brand Fjällräven, their G1000 material is waxed cotton. Not the cheapest but they are high quality and wil last.
  - michaf 6y ago
    I have a couple of pants made from G-1000, and I really like it's properties (light, durable, will not retain much water, can be made water-repellent with wax), but it actually is made from 65% polyester and 35% cotton [1]. [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materials/g-1000 https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materia...
    - unwind 6y ago
      Thanks, I should have double-checked.
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  They have a few different versions now, but the key to the membrane is that it’s really thin. It’s not like most average Joes can make their own even if they buy a bunch of PTFE pellets. It’s also overkill for most people and daily life, but Gore Tex (or some of the newer competitors) is worth it when backpacking or biking; you don’t want to carry the weight of a waxed canvas jacket for a long trip.
- nextos 6y ago
  British invented a tightly woven cotton called Ventile for RAF pilots, which is waterproof, windproof and breathes quite well when not wet. It has some disadvantages, but it's natural, it doesn't burn and it doesn't make funny noises. There are even some certified organic variants made in Switzerland by Stotz. Many manufacturers in Germany, Scandinavia and UK are adding this to some of their jackets, so it's worth looking around. Else, Paramo has developed a clever cloth called Analogy, which works in a manner similar to animal fur to push rain out and keep you warm. It's not perfect either, and it's based on synthetic fibers, but it doesn't have nasty plastic coatings. It's used by some mountain guides in my region, and when I asked they were quite satisfied.
  - et-al 6y ago
    Ventile, long staple cotton, works by absorbing and swelling with water; "closing" the weave and preventing further water from getting in. However, the inner surface of the fabric is still wet, so your clothes underneath the jacket can still get wet through capillary action. So to mitigate this, oftentimes manufacturers will use two layers of Ventile or put a wool liner underneath the shoulders. Also, once thoroughly soaked through, it will take just as long to dry as regular ol' cotton. This is why Stotz still treats their version, EtaProof, with DWR. I think Ventile is great, but I think it's better suited for situations where you'll return to a heated shelter at the end of the night.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    > RAF pilots AKA people not exposed to the elements most of the time.
    - throwawayinfo 6y ago
      If your plane goes down in the middle of a battlefield, you'll need a good coat...
      - m0zg 6y ago
        You're kind of fucked in that case regardless, and waterproof jacket will be the least of your concerns. All you have is a small handgun.
- dheera 6y ago
  Is there any reason why aerogel (e.g. PyroGel) hasn't caught on as an insulation for winter jackets? The demos look pretty impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk
  - conk 6y ago
    Without special treatment aerogel would be damaged by movement and moisture that is common with a jacket. It’s also very costly to produces compared to other insulating materials.
  - Haemm0r 6y ago
    As far as i remember, people wearing clothes with this type of insualtion had problems with overheating. However things may have changed since then https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-insulator-future https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-in...
    - dheera 6y ago
      Interesting. I was wondering since I've felt cold in almost every Gore-tex jacket I have worn. Also it would seem to me that using a really thin layer of the aerogel stuff could prevent overheating, keep warm while being stupidly thin and impressive.
      - et-al 6y ago
        Gore-Tex is not meant to insulate unless you're talking about just the bare skin feel against the inside of the jacket. Some Gore-Tex jackets had a mesh liner which helps alleviate that cold surface feeling (and protect the teflon layer). If you're interested in insulation for high-exertion activities, Polartec Alpha is now the bee's knees.
  - matsur 6y ago
    The first jackets using Aerogel as insulation are just hitting the market. https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?cgid=sport-climbing-mens https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?... is one example. The previous version of this jacket is a cult favorite; curious to see what reviews of the new Aerogel version look like.
- bparsons 6y ago
  Try the North face Thermoball line of jackets. I put mine through all manner of environmental abuse this year and it performed extremely well. The materials all seem pretty boring sounding.
- marcyb5st 6y ago
  I think there are already alternatives. Dyneema fiber is superior to GoreTex in almost any way but price (I have ultralight backpacks made of the stuff and are amazing). Moreover, they are more resistant to UV light than other polymers, lowering the chance they end up as microplastics. If, instead, you are looking for waxable gear, have a look at Fjällraven G-1000 series of products. They cost a penny, but they are ultra sturdy and, in general, top-notch outdoor gear. Moreover Fjällraven should be one of the more environmental friendly brands for technical gear ATM.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    Dyneema fabrics aren't breathable at all are they? That seems to be gore-tex's main selling point over other waterproof fabrics.
    - marcyb5st 6y ago
      You are correct, but I believe there were experiments about having micropores to let moisture escape. Also, I think it can be loosely wooven to have some degree of breathability. I think nobody invested in it yet with regards to clothing because prices would go through the roof.
      - samiru 6y ago
        So it is not really an alternative! :)
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- analog31 6y ago
  There's always boiled wool. ;-)
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I don’t know about general purpose jackets but in the motorcycling world waxed cotton is still used by some manufacturers. Check this one out: https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Gore-Tex has always been way overrated. It's willingness to debond with relatively little use, destroys its long term utility. There are better waterproof linings that will last. Ventilation can be provided by openings in the garment.
- prawn 6y ago
  You might be thinking of something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone ?
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  Barbour maybe - but is expensive and you need to get the knack of applying the wax.
bb123 6y ago
A very similar product to what you are thinking of does exist - it's called Ventile. It is basically pure cotton woven extremely tightly making it waterproof. It has been around since the 1920s and is still used to make coats today.

by hansvs 6y ago

specialist 6y ago

Ya, I felt truly stupid once I realized Gore-Tex is Teflon. REI is gonna need a makeover once this catches on. Since learning about micro plastics from fabrics polluting our waterways, I'm keen to find alternatives. I had an Australian style rain coat (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) as a kid. I couldn't find anything comparable locally. Meanwhile, I got one of those fisherman jackets. I sweat so much, the only benefit I get is wind protection.

hvs 6y ago
Waxed canvas is used a lot for woodworking aprons. I'd look for a waxed canvas rain coat.
- jowiar 6y ago
  Barbour is probably the most well-known waxed canvas jacket. They’re great, especially in areas where rain comes suddenly.
cnasc 6y ago
> (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) Barbour?
- Bayart 6y ago
  Or Belstaff. Even Aigle makes pretty good waxed jackets on occasion. But one of the best materials for rain is still... wool.
  - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
    I have had several wool coats and none of them have been at all rain repellent. I’ve also worn many pure wool jumpers and hats in the rain, again none of them holding off anything more than the lightest drizzle. What sort of wool is good for keeping off the rain? Edit: Wearing (only) a damp wool jumper is fine if you’re up a mountain and it’s not too windy or freezing cold, but I’d still prefer to be dry!
    - mod 6y ago
      Not the GP, so not sure what he was specifically talking about, but wool is known for retaining its insulative value even when wet. Yes, you're wet, but you're still warm. Many outdoorsmen prefer this to the uncertainty of being able to keep their gear dry.
      - Bayart 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm talking about. By thick rainy weather I love nothing more than a coarse knitted woolen sweater and a heavy tweed jacket. It's warm, breathable and I'll never stay so long under the rain that it's soaked. As far as strictly waterproofing goes, you do need coating or some hybrid material with PU weaved in. IMO it's more useful as a wind barrier than anything else.
      - Thlom 6y ago
        This is why you always use layers with wool closest to the skin.
unwind 6y ago
Look for Swedish outdoor brand Fjällräven, their G1000 material is waxed cotton. Not the cheapest but they are high quality and wil last.
- michaf 6y ago
  I have a couple of pants made from G-1000, and I really like it's properties (light, durable, will not retain much water, can be made water-repellent with wax), but it actually is made from 65% polyester and 35% cotton [1]. [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materials/g-1000 https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materia...
  - unwind 6y ago
    Thanks, I should have double-checked.
parsimo2010 6y ago
They have a few different versions now, but the key to the membrane is that it’s really thin. It’s not like most average Joes can make their own even if they buy a bunch of PTFE pellets. It’s also overkill for most people and daily life, but Gore Tex (or some of the newer competitors) is worth it when backpacking or biking; you don’t want to carry the weight of a waxed canvas jacket for a long trip.
nextos 6y ago
British invented a tightly woven cotton called Ventile for RAF pilots, which is waterproof, windproof and breathes quite well when not wet. It has some disadvantages, but it's natural, it doesn't burn and it doesn't make funny noises. There are even some certified organic variants made in Switzerland by Stotz. Many manufacturers in Germany, Scandinavia and UK are adding this to some of their jackets, so it's worth looking around. Else, Paramo has developed a clever cloth called Analogy, which works in a manner similar to animal fur to push rain out and keep you warm. It's not perfect either, and it's based on synthetic fibers, but it doesn't have nasty plastic coatings. It's used by some mountain guides in my region, and when I asked they were quite satisfied.
- et-al 6y ago
  Ventile, long staple cotton, works by absorbing and swelling with water; "closing" the weave and preventing further water from getting in. However, the inner surface of the fabric is still wet, so your clothes underneath the jacket can still get wet through capillary action. So to mitigate this, oftentimes manufacturers will use two layers of Ventile or put a wool liner underneath the shoulders. Also, once thoroughly soaked through, it will take just as long to dry as regular ol' cotton. This is why Stotz still treats their version, EtaProof, with DWR. I think Ventile is great, but I think it's better suited for situations where you'll return to a heated shelter at the end of the night.
- m0zg 6y ago
  > RAF pilots AKA people not exposed to the elements most of the time.
  - throwawayinfo 6y ago
    If your plane goes down in the middle of a battlefield, you'll need a good coat...
    - m0zg 6y ago
      You're kind of fucked in that case regardless, and waterproof jacket will be the least of your concerns. All you have is a small handgun.
dheera 6y ago
Is there any reason why aerogel (e.g. PyroGel) hasn't caught on as an insulation for winter jackets? The demos look pretty impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk
- conk 6y ago
  Without special treatment aerogel would be damaged by movement and moisture that is common with a jacket. It’s also very costly to produces compared to other insulating materials.
- Haemm0r 6y ago
  As far as i remember, people wearing clothes with this type of insualtion had problems with overheating. However things may have changed since then https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-insulator-future https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-in...
  - dheera 6y ago
    Interesting. I was wondering since I've felt cold in almost every Gore-tex jacket I have worn. Also it would seem to me that using a really thin layer of the aerogel stuff could prevent overheating, keep warm while being stupidly thin and impressive.
    - et-al 6y ago
      Gore-Tex is not meant to insulate unless you're talking about just the bare skin feel against the inside of the jacket. Some Gore-Tex jackets had a mesh liner which helps alleviate that cold surface feeling (and protect the teflon layer). If you're interested in insulation for high-exertion activities, Polartec Alpha is now the bee's knees.
- matsur 6y ago
  The first jackets using Aerogel as insulation are just hitting the market. https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?cgid=sport-climbing-mens https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?... is one example. The previous version of this jacket is a cult favorite; curious to see what reviews of the new Aerogel version look like.
bparsons 6y ago
Try the North face Thermoball line of jackets. I put mine through all manner of environmental abuse this year and it performed extremely well. The materials all seem pretty boring sounding.
marcyb5st 6y ago
I think there are already alternatives. Dyneema fiber is superior to GoreTex in almost any way but price (I have ultralight backpacks made of the stuff and are amazing). Moreover, they are more resistant to UV light than other polymers, lowering the chance they end up as microplastics. If, instead, you are looking for waxable gear, have a look at Fjällraven G-1000 series of products. They cost a penny, but they are ultra sturdy and, in general, top-notch outdoor gear. Moreover Fjällraven should be one of the more environmental friendly brands for technical gear ATM.
- RandallBrown 6y ago
  Dyneema fabrics aren't breathable at all are they? That seems to be gore-tex's main selling point over other waterproof fabrics.
  - marcyb5st 6y ago
    You are correct, but I believe there were experiments about having micropores to let moisture escape. Also, I think it can be loosely wooven to have some degree of breathability. I think nobody invested in it yet with regards to clothing because prices would go through the roof.
    - samiru 6y ago
      So it is not really an alternative! :)
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
analog31 6y ago
There's always boiled wool. ;-)
IgorPartola 6y ago
I don’t know about general purpose jackets but in the motorcycling world waxed cotton is still used by some manufacturers. Check this one out: https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Gore-Tex has always been way overrated. It's willingness to debond with relatively little use, destroys its long term utility. There are better waterproof linings that will last. Ventilation can be provided by openings in the garment.
prawn 6y ago
You might be thinking of something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone ?
C1sc0cat 6y ago
Barbour maybe - but is expensive and you need to get the knack of applying the wax.

bb123 6y ago

A very similar product to what you are thinking of does exist - it's called Ventile. It is basically pure cotton woven extremely tightly making it waterproof. It has been around since the 1920s and is still used to make coats today.