8 ms·

The more I hear about Gore-Tex, (and PTFE and PFOA, the chemicals Gore-tex and other Teflon stuff is created from) the more I think this is one of those chemica

by revx 6y ago

The more I hear about Gore-Tex, (and PTFE and PFOA, the chemicals Gore-tex and other Teflon stuff is created from) the more I think this is one of those chemicals that we'll look back on in 50 years like we now look at leaded gasoline. Besides being known as deadly to parrots, I think studies (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28913736/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28913736/) are starting to reveal that there are risks with PTFE and PFOA that need more research. I try not to be alarmist about chemicals and am generally in favor of scientific progress, but this chemical (similarly to PCBs) seems like one of those "wonder materials" that's great for specific applications that turns out to be terrible for life and the environment as soon as people sit down and actually look at the effects over a long period of time.

hansvs 6y ago
Well that just messed with my head. For some reason (advertising? confusion? stupidity?) I had thought that Gore-Tex was based on a special weaving technique and use of special acrylic fibres... Wikipedia says `It is composed of stretched polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), which is more commonly known by the generic trademark Teflon.` Damn....
- specialist 6y ago
  Ya, I felt truly stupid once I realized Gore-Tex is Teflon. REI is gonna need a makeover once this catches on. Since learning about micro plastics from fabrics polluting our waterways, I'm keen to find alternatives. I had an Australian style rain coat (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) as a kid. I couldn't find anything comparable locally. Meanwhile, I got one of those fisherman jackets. I sweat so much, the only benefit I get is wind protection.
  - hvs 6y ago
    Waxed canvas is used a lot for woodworking aprons. I'd look for a waxed canvas rain coat.
    - jowiar 6y ago
      Barbour is probably the most well-known waxed canvas jacket. They’re great, especially in areas where rain comes suddenly.
  - cnasc 6y ago
    > (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) Barbour?
    - Bayart 6y ago
      Or Belstaff. Even Aigle makes pretty good waxed jackets on occasion. But one of the best materials for rain is still... wool.
      - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
        I have had several wool coats and none of them have been at all rain repellent. I’ve also worn many pure wool jumpers and hats in the rain, again none of them holding off anything more than the lightest drizzle. What sort of wool is good for keeping off the rain? Edit: Wearing (only) a damp wool jumper is fine if you’re up a mountain and it’s not too windy or freezing cold, but I’d still prefer to be dry!
        mod 6y ago
        Not the GP, so not sure what he was specifically talking about, but wool is known for retaining its insulative value even when wet. Yes, you're wet, but you're still warm. Many outdoorsmen prefer this to the uncertainty of being able to keep their gear dry.
        Bayart 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm talking about. By thick rainy weather I love nothing more than a coarse knitted woolen sweater and a heavy tweed jacket. It's warm, breathable and I'll never stay so long under the rain that it's soaked. As far as strictly waterproofing goes, you do need coating or some hybrid material with PU weaved in. IMO it's more useful as a wind barrier than anything else.
        Thlom 6y ago
        This is why you always use layers with wool closest to the skin.
  - unwind 6y ago
    Look for Swedish outdoor brand Fjällräven, their G1000 material is waxed cotton. Not the cheapest but they are high quality and wil last.
    - michaf 6y ago
      I have a couple of pants made from G-1000, and I really like it's properties (light, durable, will not retain much water, can be made water-repellent with wax), but it actually is made from 65% polyester and 35% cotton [1]. [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materials/g-1000 https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materia...
      - unwind 6y ago
        Thanks, I should have double-checked.
  - parsimo2010 6y ago
    They have a few different versions now, but the key to the membrane is that it’s really thin. It’s not like most average Joes can make their own even if they buy a bunch of PTFE pellets. It’s also overkill for most people and daily life, but Gore Tex (or some of the newer competitors) is worth it when backpacking or biking; you don’t want to carry the weight of a waxed canvas jacket for a long trip.
  - nextos 6y ago
    British invented a tightly woven cotton called Ventile for RAF pilots, which is waterproof, windproof and breathes quite well when not wet. It has some disadvantages, but it's natural, it doesn't burn and it doesn't make funny noises. There are even some certified organic variants made in Switzerland by Stotz. Many manufacturers in Germany, Scandinavia and UK are adding this to some of their jackets, so it's worth looking around. Else, Paramo has developed a clever cloth called Analogy, which works in a manner similar to animal fur to push rain out and keep you warm. It's not perfect either, and it's based on synthetic fibers, but it doesn't have nasty plastic coatings. It's used by some mountain guides in my region, and when I asked they were quite satisfied.
    - et-al 6y ago
      Ventile, long staple cotton, works by absorbing and swelling with water; "closing" the weave and preventing further water from getting in. However, the inner surface of the fabric is still wet, so your clothes underneath the jacket can still get wet through capillary action. So to mitigate this, oftentimes manufacturers will use two layers of Ventile or put a wool liner underneath the shoulders. Also, once thoroughly soaked through, it will take just as long to dry as regular ol' cotton. This is why Stotz still treats their version, EtaProof, with DWR. I think Ventile is great, but I think it's better suited for situations where you'll return to a heated shelter at the end of the night.
    - m0zg 6y ago
      > RAF pilots AKA people not exposed to the elements most of the time.
      - throwawayinfo 6y ago
        If your plane goes down in the middle of a battlefield, you'll need a good coat...
        m0zg 6y ago
        You're kind of fucked in that case regardless, and waterproof jacket will be the least of your concerns. All you have is a small handgun.
  - dheera 6y ago
    Is there any reason why aerogel (e.g. PyroGel) hasn't caught on as an insulation for winter jackets? The demos look pretty impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk
    - conk 6y ago
      Without special treatment aerogel would be damaged by movement and moisture that is common with a jacket. It’s also very costly to produces compared to other insulating materials.
    - Haemm0r 6y ago
      As far as i remember, people wearing clothes with this type of insualtion had problems with overheating. However things may have changed since then https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-insulator-future https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-in...
      - dheera 6y ago
        Interesting. I was wondering since I've felt cold in almost every Gore-tex jacket I have worn. Also it would seem to me that using a really thin layer of the aerogel stuff could prevent overheating, keep warm while being stupidly thin and impressive.
        et-al 6y ago
        Gore-Tex is not meant to insulate unless you're talking about just the bare skin feel against the inside of the jacket. Some Gore-Tex jackets had a mesh liner which helps alleviate that cold surface feeling (and protect the teflon layer). If you're interested in insulation for high-exertion activities, Polartec Alpha is now the bee's knees.
    - matsur 6y ago
      The first jackets using Aerogel as insulation are just hitting the market. https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?cgid=sport-climbing-mens https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?... is one example. The previous version of this jacket is a cult favorite; curious to see what reviews of the new Aerogel version look like.
  - bparsons 6y ago
    Try the North face Thermoball line of jackets. I put mine through all manner of environmental abuse this year and it performed extremely well. The materials all seem pretty boring sounding.
  - marcyb5st 6y ago
    I think there are already alternatives. Dyneema fiber is superior to GoreTex in almost any way but price (I have ultralight backpacks made of the stuff and are amazing). Moreover, they are more resistant to UV light than other polymers, lowering the chance they end up as microplastics. If, instead, you are looking for waxable gear, have a look at Fjällraven G-1000 series of products. They cost a penny, but they are ultra sturdy and, in general, top-notch outdoor gear. Moreover Fjällraven should be one of the more environmental friendly brands for technical gear ATM.
    - RandallBrown 6y ago
      Dyneema fabrics aren't breathable at all are they? That seems to be gore-tex's main selling point over other waterproof fabrics.
      - marcyb5st 6y ago
        You are correct, but I believe there were experiments about having micropores to let moisture escape. Also, I think it can be loosely wooven to have some degree of breathability. I think nobody invested in it yet with regards to clothing because prices would go through the roof.
        samiru 6y ago
        So it is not really an alternative! :)
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - analog31 6y ago
    There's always boiled wool. ;-)
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    I don’t know about general purpose jackets but in the motorcycling world waxed cotton is still used by some manufacturers. Check this one out: https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    Gore-Tex has always been way overrated. It's willingness to debond with relatively little use, destroys its long term utility. There are better waterproof linings that will last. Ventilation can be provided by openings in the garment.
  - prawn 6y ago
    You might be thinking of something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone ?
  - C1sc0cat 6y ago
    Barbour maybe - but is expensive and you need to get the knack of applying the wax.
- bb123 6y ago
  A very similar product to what you are thinking of does exist - it's called Ventile. It is basically pure cotton woven extremely tightly making it waterproof. It has been around since the 1920s and is still used to make coats today.
bbarn 6y ago
Everything will kill you, in sufficient quantities. The question is whether its use outweighs the risks, and I'd venture to say PTFE if called upon to settle accounts has done the world more good than harm.
- comicjk 6y ago
  That's likely true now, but we have a problem if the harm (pollution) accumulates each year and doesn't go away. Eventually it may exceed the good.
andrewem 6y ago
See for example the small town of Hoosick Falls, New York where PFOA poisoned the water supply. Many sources, but here's one https://pfasproject.com/hoosick-falls-new-york/ https://pfasproject.com/hoosick-falls-new-york/
- hobofan 6y ago
  Also in Parkersburg, where the resulting long legal battle was portrayed in the movie Dark Waters last year. Another great addition to the genre of "Mark Ruffalo investigative thrillers".
refurb 6y ago
PFOA I can understand, but PTFE? Sure, it's toxic to parrots, if you burn the material and it decomposes. But how many materials aren't? Most plastic will produce highly toxic products when burned. PTFE is produced from tetra-fluoroethylene, which is a gas, doesn't get into water supplies. And PTFE is very non-toxic. That's why we use it in medical implants.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Yeah, but they don't buy commercials with happy bongo music and stir FUD about their competition, so how good can it be?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nsajko 6y ago
    Are you referring to DuPont when you say "they"? I'd assume there would be many producers since PTFE is an old invention (~1940).
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      I'm referring to the entire chemical industry. This thread is chock full of people saying "Teflon = Bad" when it was manufacturing safety and (maybe) the practice of ignoring warnings and grilling with teflon pans that were bad. It's an amazing material and it would be a shame to see it memed out of existence. This kind of thing has happened before. If we (USA) hadn't stopped rolling out nuclear in the 80s, we'd be off coal/gas by now, instead of maybe several decades from now after pumping ungodly amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Anti-vax and anti-fluoride need no introduction. Agrotech probably receives the most hate per unit of actual sin -- it's an odd week that I don't hear someone patting themselves on the back for choosing a product that is almost certain to be worse for the environment because an upscale vendor successfully applied misleading differentiation tactics to convince them of the opposite. Indiscriminately attacking progress and throwing the baby out with the bathwater has become a national passtime that shows every indication of getting worse before it gets better. Teflon seems to be another instance of this trend.
paulcole 6y ago
If you could snap your fingers and erase the environmental impact Goretex has had on the world, it would be the environmental equivalent of squishing a single ant. Yes, you did something but that something was ultimately pointless on a global scale. If you’re not an alarmist, don’t wring your hands over Goretex. It is nothing like leaded gasoline. The modern world is the blight on the environment. We just like it too much to ever change. We’d rather think Goretex or not separating glass from plastic or using/not using canvas shopping bags (depending on how contrarian you’re feeling) is the culprit. But really it’s us and how we like to live. We should enjoy this ride while it lasts.
hexbinencoded 6y ago
Yep, the science is in. Lead, asbestos, DDT, PCBs, and PTFE/PFOS/PFOA. 3M Scotchgard (spray-on water-repellent for materials) was mostly PFOS, now it's PFBS. Hipora, OTOH, is silicon-based. SympaTex is polyester-based. On another note: I felt extremely stupid paying $300 for a Columbia Elite running rain jacket with Gore-Tex, with a lifetime warranty and bought from their store in Seattle, that subsequently disintegrated into god-knows-what and they wouldn't honor it. Never again: Gore-Tex or Columbia. Comparison table of water-resistance and breathability of water-resistant fabrics: https://www.sierra.com/lp2/waterproof-guide/ https://www.sierra.com/lp2/waterproof-guide/
junon 6y ago
As a parrot owner, this is true. It's a huge scare in the community because it's one of those facts not well known by even moderately-experienced/-researched owners. It's almost a guaranteed kill to a parrot when heated. Very dangerous stuff.
aaron695 6y ago
> Besides being known as deadly to parrots Everything we know about this is anecdotal. But it seems true. It's not hard to put a pan in a lab with a bird and see what happens. But no one will it seems. Science is going backwards, we just sit around eating Kentucky Fried Chicken talking about how ethical we are. And other than the fact we should never use anecdotal evidence when it's so easy to check, we also have no idea what temperatures it happens at or how bad it really is. So it's hard to know if this is just crazy talk or something real.

by revx 6y ago

hansvs 6y ago

Well that just messed with my head. For some reason (advertising? confusion? stupidity?) I had thought that Gore-Tex was based on a special weaving technique and use of special acrylic fibres... Wikipedia says `It is composed of stretched polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), which is more commonly known by the generic trademark Teflon.` Damn....

specialist 6y ago
Ya, I felt truly stupid once I realized Gore-Tex is Teflon. REI is gonna need a makeover once this catches on. Since learning about micro plastics from fabrics polluting our waterways, I'm keen to find alternatives. I had an Australian style rain coat (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) as a kid. I couldn't find anything comparable locally. Meanwhile, I got one of those fisherman jackets. I sweat so much, the only benefit I get is wind protection.
- hvs 6y ago
  Waxed canvas is used a lot for woodworking aprons. I'd look for a waxed canvas rain coat.
  - jowiar 6y ago
    Barbour is probably the most well-known waxed canvas jacket. They’re great, especially in areas where rain comes suddenly.
- cnasc 6y ago
  > (dense weave, regularly reapply wax) Barbour?
  - Bayart 6y ago
    Or Belstaff. Even Aigle makes pretty good waxed jackets on occasion. But one of the best materials for rain is still... wool.
    - tokamak-teapot 6y ago
      I have had several wool coats and none of them have been at all rain repellent. I’ve also worn many pure wool jumpers and hats in the rain, again none of them holding off anything more than the lightest drizzle. What sort of wool is good for keeping off the rain? Edit: Wearing (only) a damp wool jumper is fine if you’re up a mountain and it’s not too windy or freezing cold, but I’d still prefer to be dry!
      - mod 6y ago
        Not the GP, so not sure what he was specifically talking about, but wool is known for retaining its insulative value even when wet. Yes, you're wet, but you're still warm. Many outdoorsmen prefer this to the uncertainty of being able to keep their gear dry.
        Bayart 6y ago
        Yes, that's what I'm talking about. By thick rainy weather I love nothing more than a coarse knitted woolen sweater and a heavy tweed jacket. It's warm, breathable and I'll never stay so long under the rain that it's soaked. As far as strictly waterproofing goes, you do need coating or some hybrid material with PU weaved in. IMO it's more useful as a wind barrier than anything else.
        Thlom 6y ago
        This is why you always use layers with wool closest to the skin.
- unwind 6y ago
  Look for Swedish outdoor brand Fjällräven, their G1000 material is waxed cotton. Not the cheapest but they are high quality and wil last.
  - michaf 6y ago
    I have a couple of pants made from G-1000, and I really like it's properties (light, durable, will not retain much water, can be made water-repellent with wax), but it actually is made from 65% polyester and 35% cotton [1]. [1] https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materials/g-1000 https://www.fjallraven.com/uk/en-gb/about-fjallraven/materia...
    - unwind 6y ago
      Thanks, I should have double-checked.
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  They have a few different versions now, but the key to the membrane is that it’s really thin. It’s not like most average Joes can make their own even if they buy a bunch of PTFE pellets. It’s also overkill for most people and daily life, but Gore Tex (or some of the newer competitors) is worth it when backpacking or biking; you don’t want to carry the weight of a waxed canvas jacket for a long trip.
- nextos 6y ago
  British invented a tightly woven cotton called Ventile for RAF pilots, which is waterproof, windproof and breathes quite well when not wet. It has some disadvantages, but it's natural, it doesn't burn and it doesn't make funny noises. There are even some certified organic variants made in Switzerland by Stotz. Many manufacturers in Germany, Scandinavia and UK are adding this to some of their jackets, so it's worth looking around. Else, Paramo has developed a clever cloth called Analogy, which works in a manner similar to animal fur to push rain out and keep you warm. It's not perfect either, and it's based on synthetic fibers, but it doesn't have nasty plastic coatings. It's used by some mountain guides in my region, and when I asked they were quite satisfied.
  - et-al 6y ago
    Ventile, long staple cotton, works by absorbing and swelling with water; "closing" the weave and preventing further water from getting in. However, the inner surface of the fabric is still wet, so your clothes underneath the jacket can still get wet through capillary action. So to mitigate this, oftentimes manufacturers will use two layers of Ventile or put a wool liner underneath the shoulders. Also, once thoroughly soaked through, it will take just as long to dry as regular ol' cotton. This is why Stotz still treats their version, EtaProof, with DWR. I think Ventile is great, but I think it's better suited for situations where you'll return to a heated shelter at the end of the night.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    > RAF pilots AKA people not exposed to the elements most of the time.
    - throwawayinfo 6y ago
      If your plane goes down in the middle of a battlefield, you'll need a good coat...
      - m0zg 6y ago
        You're kind of fucked in that case regardless, and waterproof jacket will be the least of your concerns. All you have is a small handgun.
- dheera 6y ago
  Is there any reason why aerogel (e.g. PyroGel) hasn't caught on as an insulation for winter jackets? The demos look pretty impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ig8rW80uk
  - conk 6y ago
    Without special treatment aerogel would be damaged by movement and moisture that is common with a jacket. It’s also very costly to produces compared to other insulating materials.
  - Haemm0r 6y ago
    As far as i remember, people wearing clothes with this type of insualtion had problems with overheating. However things may have changed since then https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-insulator-future https://www.outsideonline.com/1919251/forget-down—aerogel-in...
    - dheera 6y ago
      Interesting. I was wondering since I've felt cold in almost every Gore-tex jacket I have worn. Also it would seem to me that using a really thin layer of the aerogel stuff could prevent overheating, keep warm while being stupidly thin and impressive.
      - et-al 6y ago
        Gore-Tex is not meant to insulate unless you're talking about just the bare skin feel against the inside of the jacket. Some Gore-Tex jackets had a mesh liner which helps alleviate that cold surface feeling (and protect the teflon layer). If you're interested in insulation for high-exertion activities, Polartec Alpha is now the bee's knees.
  - matsur 6y ago
    The first jackets using Aerogel as insulation are just hitting the market. https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?cgid=sport-climbing-mens https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/85350.html?... is one example. The previous version of this jacket is a cult favorite; curious to see what reviews of the new Aerogel version look like.
- bparsons 6y ago
  Try the North face Thermoball line of jackets. I put mine through all manner of environmental abuse this year and it performed extremely well. The materials all seem pretty boring sounding.
- marcyb5st 6y ago
  I think there are already alternatives. Dyneema fiber is superior to GoreTex in almost any way but price (I have ultralight backpacks made of the stuff and are amazing). Moreover, they are more resistant to UV light than other polymers, lowering the chance they end up as microplastics. If, instead, you are looking for waxable gear, have a look at Fjällraven G-1000 series of products. They cost a penny, but they are ultra sturdy and, in general, top-notch outdoor gear. Moreover Fjällraven should be one of the more environmental friendly brands for technical gear ATM.
  - RandallBrown 6y ago
    Dyneema fabrics aren't breathable at all are they? That seems to be gore-tex's main selling point over other waterproof fabrics.
    - marcyb5st 6y ago
      You are correct, but I believe there were experiments about having micropores to let moisture escape. Also, I think it can be loosely wooven to have some degree of breathability. I think nobody invested in it yet with regards to clothing because prices would go through the roof.
      - samiru 6y ago
        So it is not really an alternative! :)
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- analog31 6y ago
  There's always boiled wool. ;-)
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I don’t know about general purpose jackets but in the motorcycling world waxed cotton is still used by some manufacturers. Check this one out: https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/merlin-yoxall-wax-jacket
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Gore-Tex has always been way overrated. It's willingness to debond with relatively little use, destroys its long term utility. There are better waterproof linings that will last. Ventilation can be provided by openings in the garment.
- prawn 6y ago
  You might be thinking of something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone ?
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  Barbour maybe - but is expensive and you need to get the knack of applying the wax.
bb123 6y ago
A very similar product to what you are thinking of does exist - it's called Ventile. It is basically pure cotton woven extremely tightly making it waterproof. It has been around since the 1920s and is still used to make coats today.

bbarn 6y ago

Everything will kill you, in sufficient quantities. The question is whether its use outweighs the risks, and I'd venture to say PTFE if called upon to settle accounts has done the world more good than harm.

comicjk 6y ago
That's likely true now, but we have a problem if the harm (pollution) accumulates each year and doesn't go away. Eventually it may exceed the good.

andrewem 6y ago

See for example the small town of Hoosick Falls, New York where PFOA poisoned the water supply. Many sources, but here's one https://pfasproject.com/hoosick-falls-new-york/ https://pfasproject.com/hoosick-falls-new-york/

hobofan 6y ago
Also in Parkersburg, where the resulting long legal battle was portrayed in the movie Dark Waters last year. Another great addition to the genre of "Mark Ruffalo investigative thrillers".

refurb 6y ago

PFOA I can understand, but PTFE? Sure, it's toxic to parrots, if you burn the material and it decomposes. But how many materials aren't? Most plastic will produce highly toxic products when burned. PTFE is produced from tetra-fluoroethylene, which is a gas, doesn't get into water supplies. And PTFE is very non-toxic. That's why we use it in medical implants.

jjoonathan 6y ago
Yeah, but they don't buy commercials with happy bongo music and stir FUD about their competition, so how good can it be?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nsajko 6y ago
  Are you referring to DuPont when you say "they"? I'd assume there would be many producers since PTFE is an old invention (~1940).
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    I'm referring to the entire chemical industry. This thread is chock full of people saying "Teflon = Bad" when it was manufacturing safety and (maybe) the practice of ignoring warnings and grilling with teflon pans that were bad. It's an amazing material and it would be a shame to see it memed out of existence. This kind of thing has happened before. If we (USA) hadn't stopped rolling out nuclear in the 80s, we'd be off coal/gas by now, instead of maybe several decades from now after pumping ungodly amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Anti-vax and anti-fluoride need no introduction. Agrotech probably receives the most hate per unit of actual sin -- it's an odd week that I don't hear someone patting themselves on the back for choosing a product that is almost certain to be worse for the environment because an upscale vendor successfully applied misleading differentiation tactics to convince them of the opposite. Indiscriminately attacking progress and throwing the baby out with the bathwater has become a national passtime that shows every indication of getting worse before it gets better. Teflon seems to be another instance of this trend.

paulcole 6y ago

If you could snap your fingers and erase the environmental impact Goretex has had on the world, it would be the environmental equivalent of squishing a single ant. Yes, you did something but that something was ultimately pointless on a global scale. If you’re not an alarmist, don’t wring your hands over Goretex. It is nothing like leaded gasoline. The modern world is the blight on the environment. We just like it too much to ever change. We’d rather think Goretex or not separating glass from plastic or using/not using canvas shopping bags (depending on how contrarian you’re feeling) is the culprit. But really it’s us and how we like to live. We should enjoy this ride while it lasts.

hexbinencoded 6y ago

Yep, the science is in. Lead, asbestos, DDT, PCBs, and PTFE/PFOS/PFOA. 3M Scotchgard (spray-on water-repellent for materials) was mostly PFOS, now it's PFBS. Hipora, OTOH, is silicon-based. SympaTex is polyester-based. On another note: I felt extremely stupid paying $300 for a Columbia Elite running rain jacket with Gore-Tex, with a lifetime warranty and bought from their store in Seattle, that subsequently disintegrated into god-knows-what and they wouldn't honor it. Never again: Gore-Tex or Columbia. Comparison table of water-resistance and breathability of water-resistant fabrics: https://www.sierra.com/lp2/waterproof-guide/ https://www.sierra.com/lp2/waterproof-guide/

junon 6y ago

As a parrot owner, this is true. It's a huge scare in the community because it's one of those facts not well known by even moderately-experienced/-researched owners. It's almost a guaranteed kill to a parrot when heated. Very dangerous stuff.

aaron695 6y ago

> Besides being known as deadly to parrots Everything we know about this is anecdotal. But it seems true. It's not hard to put a pan in a lab with a bird and see what happens. But no one will it seems. Science is going backwards, we just sit around eating Kentucky Fried Chicken talking about how ethical we are. And other than the fact we should never use anecdotal evidence when it's so easy to check, we also have no idea what temperatures it happens at or how bad it really is. So it's hard to know if this is just crazy talk or something real.