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Can TikTok be banned from US based Android devices?

19 points by bluegopher 6y ago

sheeshkebab 6y ago
Devices - no, but it sure can be removed from Play Store entirely (not just US), and banned from using all US based cdn’s and hosting providers... pretty much killing it.
- liopleurodon 6y ago
  Actually, it seems like they can delete it from devices. FTA it's just a push notification :(
  - bluegopher 6y ago
    Yep, they can. AFAIR this feature was used once in the past after a court order to delete an app that was very popular in south america (brazil?), but contained a nasty sideload. I can't find an an article backing this up though.
    - sillysaurusx 6y ago
      Wait, really? That seems ... very unexpected. Can anyone confirm, ideally with some sort of proof, that Google can delete apps from your phone on demand? I suppose Apple has this ability too. I've never really thought about it.
      - snazz 6y ago
        Given that I have to re-sign sideloaded open-source iPhone apps every 7 days for them to work, I would imagine that Apple could just revoke the app’s signing certificate and it wouldn’t launch. I don’t know how Android works in this regard.
        ajayyy 6y ago
        Android apps, even on the Google Play store, are signed by the developer (not Google). Even with the new "app bundles", where you can give Google your signing key so they can make downloaded apps only include the code needed on that device (languages, screen size, etc.), you still have access to that key as far as I know and can sign apps with it.
      - on_and_off 6y ago
        I don't have proof but I believe they can. AFAIK this has only been used when they detected abuse from an app, not for because an app has been banned, but the capability is there
      - bluegopher 6y ago
        Why would this be unexpected? You can buy apps on Play. You can also cancel your purchase 5 minutes later. In that case it stands to reason that Google would want to have a way to remove the app from your device.
      - tetrahedr0n 6y ago
        I think I can help provide some proof. First - the article talks about the message delivery via push notification. The push notification is, essentially, a JSON object. The relevant notification for push/delete would be something like: notificationType: 2 docid { backendDocId: "com.zhiliaoapp.musically" } Second - ADB itself, of course, provides a command for removal of an app. Only requirement would be permissions. If working direction with a console on target device, that command is going to look like this [1]: pm uninstall -k --user 0 [package name] Third - Google playstore has the permissions required to read and write to the phones filesystem. I can't find this explicitly stated, but I'm sure someone else will link to some documentation showing this is true. Fourth - Kinda makes everything else a moot point, google play apps are served by google clouds (the author mentions this as well), so even if google couldn't remove the app from the phone, it could essentially cut the cords to the APIs and render the app useless. [2] 1 - https://jimcofer.com/2019/02/18/uninstalling-android-apps-via-adb/ https://jimcofer.com/2019/02/18/uninstalling-android-apps-vi... 2 - https://developer.android.com/guide/playcore/dynamic-delivery https://developer.android.com/guide/playcore/dynamic-deliver... Final thoughts: The author touches on this, but I don't think anyone really knows the answer. Google can remove TikTok, but will they (they haven't yet, right? lol)? EDIT: formatting and final thought
        marctrem 6y ago
        > The push notification is, essentially, a JSON object. It’s a proto message, to be more precise.
      - takeda 6y ago
        They can install an app and similarly they can remove them, and they did it already many times, for example https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/google-deletes-malware-infected-android-apps-from-users-phones/ https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/google-deletes...
- mayama 6y ago
  Couldn't open the article, not clear why it could be removed entirely from Play Store, not just US? Play store has country specific apps and they removed tiktok only from Indian store after the Indian ban. So, what is different this time?
  - skissane 6y ago
    Google is a US company, and US law says that US companies (and their controlled foreign subsidiaries) must obey US trade sanctions globally. By contrast, the Indian ban was just a ban local to India, it was never intended to have extraterritorial effect
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Not legally. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-tiktok-and-wechat-transaction-prohibition https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-tiktok-and-...
      - skissane 6y ago
        The ACLU's opinion is this violates the First Amendment. Will the Courts, and especially the Supreme Court, agree? My personal bet is that the Supreme Court will not agree with the ACLU on this. (Especially if Trump succeeds in appointing a conservative to replace Ruth Bader-Ginsburg.)
        valuearb 6y ago
        Conservatives are strict constructionists when it comes to the constitution, and heavily lean on the idea that federal powers are restricted to those clearly enumerated. Trump has already been dealt a multitude of losses by “his” Supreme Court. Including a 7-2 ruling that he must disclose his personal tax records to prosecutors.
liopleurodon 6y ago
Great article. This answered a lot of questions that I was wondering about.
zmmmmm 6y ago
Half of this rationale seems to assume that TikTok can't modify the app to work independently of Play Services. But that is completely something they could do. In fact, I'd assume they have a Chinese version already developed with separate infrastructure. Not sure why it is assumed that is so hard. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if a super popular app like that went all in on a side loaded distribution mechanism.
- patrickaljord 6y ago
  Another issue is that TikTok relies on advertising for revenue and if US companies are banned from doing business with TikTok, they would need to run the app at a loss in the US at least. They could use their revenues from the rest of the world and the Chinese government to survive in the US. Not clear how that would affect TikTok sponsored influencers. Either way, the US could order ISPs to block TikTok servers, this would require a VPN and would kill TikTok for normies.
  - zmmmmm 6y ago
    > Either way, the US could order ISPs to block TikTok servers Do you think there is any legal mechanism by which they can actually order ISPs to block a server? While blocking financial transactions has plenty of precedent, I'm not sure there is any for straight up blocking communication which looks a lot more like free speech. Especially with no basis in evidence to support actual wrong-doing.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Based on what I've seen in the past few decades, all you need to say are the magic words "national security" to justify anything and everything.
      - patrickaljord 6y ago
        I wouldn't say "national security" are the magic words. When Trump tried the Muslim ban it was overturned, same for building the wall which was justified by "national security". I think the magic happens when the issue is bipartisan, which is the case here as both parties are anti-China. When an issue is supported by both parties then it will pass 100% with no obstacles from the constitution or any laws.
on_and_off 6y ago
Site doesn't open. I wonder how this would work ? Google can for sure remove an app from the play store and maybe even remove it from play services enabled phones. If I am European and travel (in some hypothetic future where it is possible) to the USA, does tiktok get removed from my phone ? Edit : I can open now. Some notes re : different apks for sideloading. I don't know if the author is being malicious here but they are inventing problems that don't exist. Yeah, there can be multiple apks for a given app (that's the main idea behind app bundles). However if you distribute your app yourself you either - provide an universal apk that will install on all devices. It will be way larger since it needs to incorporate all the different possible configurations, but is trivial to make for a dev. - detect the user device config and provide a download link tailored to that device. I guess tiktok is popular enough to go that route, but that's just a minor engineering point. Also wow, very classy to insult people who use an app. Of course if you don't like a service people who do have to be dumb.
nzha 6y ago
Couldn't the US government tell the cloud providers that TikTok uses (supposing they are American as well) to stop serving requests from American IP addresses? TikTok could serve those requests from China but serving video from China would make the app unusable.
pjc50 6y ago
If you're missing Tiktok content, open the Instagram search tab and you'll see all their "reels" ... complete with tiktok watermarks in the corner. (this is a joke, but seriously I see quite a lot of them are just reposts; I believe the tiktok video editor is still best in class, although I've never tried it)
- kevingadd 6y ago
  Yeah, reposted Tiktok videos show up on Twitter nonstop as well. At least they're watermarked with the original author's name...
Firebrand 6y ago
>Let’s be very clear here. I am not a fan of TikTok. I had the misfortune of coming across it when it was still called Musically and I had to explain to a little girl that she, unlike her friends, was not allowed to dance for strangers. That ruined an otherwise perfect evening. I realize this isn’t the main point of the post but I’m very surprised this is pretty much an accepted thing now. I would have thought the Trump administration or the media would weaponize the potential exploitation of children and turn a complex geopolitical struggle into a moral panic for the public to more easily understand.
CreepGin 6y ago
So, how does China ban things like Youtube and Facebook? Both on the app store level and IP/Firewall level?
imglorp 6y ago
I'm concerned about the precedent of the government getting involved in app censorship on ideological grounds. Today TT, tomorrow whatever the Party or our Dear Leader doesn't find complimentary?
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  if we didn’t put up with centralized stores on mobile this wouldn’t be a practical possibility for the government to ban things. now for us to get an app to our users we have to be sure the dear leader apple/google AND dear leader government both approve.
Sargos 6y ago
Yes it can due to all phone apps being funneled through only 2 corporations. Until we get a more open mobile platform and a more decentralized mobile app store then governments have easy access to strict controls over what apps we are allowed to use.
4cao 6y ago
Not sure what the article says (doesn't open for me at the moment) but to answer the question: Access to Play Store apps can be restricted to certain countries. Such apps do not appear in search results. So it's possible for Tik Tok to disappear for anyone looking to install it in the US, or with a US-based Google account. However, as long as a device allows sideloading (installing apps from other, "unknown" sources), and most of them do, it's debatable whether it could be banned from people's devices. Google has some mechanisms to counter malware (Play Protect) but these are supposed to be used against "harmful" apps. It's debatable whether they would want to be involved in enforcing these restrictions this way. It might be difficult for most users to follow the instructions to sideload an app, however there was the precedent with Fortnite, where users were asked to download it directly from fortnite.com/android (or use a QR code), and it seems to have worked. As far as I recall the Fortnite app was also preloaded on some phones. The real difficulty for ByteDance might be something else altogether: namely, if the US prohibits doing business with the company, and the US users could no longer be monetized. Such a restriction would be very difficult to work around.

19 points by bluegopher 6y ago

Devices - no, but it sure can be removed from Play Store entirely (not just US), and banned from using all US based cdn’s and hosting providers... pretty much killing it.

liopleurodon 6y ago
Actually, it seems like they can delete it from devices. FTA it's just a push notification :(
- bluegopher 6y ago
  Yep, they can. AFAIR this feature was used once in the past after a court order to delete an app that was very popular in south america (brazil?), but contained a nasty sideload. I can't find an an article backing this up though.
  - sillysaurusx 6y ago
    Wait, really? That seems ... very unexpected. Can anyone confirm, ideally with some sort of proof, that Google can delete apps from your phone on demand? I suppose Apple has this ability too. I've never really thought about it.
    - snazz 6y ago
      Given that I have to re-sign sideloaded open-source iPhone apps every 7 days for them to work, I would imagine that Apple could just revoke the app’s signing certificate and it wouldn’t launch. I don’t know how Android works in this regard.
      - ajayyy 6y ago
        Android apps, even on the Google Play store, are signed by the developer (not Google). Even with the new "app bundles", where you can give Google your signing key so they can make downloaded apps only include the code needed on that device (languages, screen size, etc.), you still have access to that key as far as I know and can sign apps with it.
    - on_and_off 6y ago
      I don't have proof but I believe they can. AFAIK this has only been used when they detected abuse from an app, not for because an app has been banned, but the capability is there
    - bluegopher 6y ago
      Why would this be unexpected? You can buy apps on Play. You can also cancel your purchase 5 minutes later. In that case it stands to reason that Google would want to have a way to remove the app from your device.
    - tetrahedr0n 6y ago
      I think I can help provide some proof. First - the article talks about the message delivery via push notification. The push notification is, essentially, a JSON object. The relevant notification for push/delete would be something like: notificationType: 2 docid { backendDocId: "com.zhiliaoapp.musically" } Second - ADB itself, of course, provides a command for removal of an app. Only requirement would be permissions. If working direction with a console on target device, that command is going to look like this [1]: pm uninstall -k --user 0 [package name] Third - Google playstore has the permissions required to read and write to the phones filesystem. I can't find this explicitly stated, but I'm sure someone else will link to some documentation showing this is true. Fourth - Kinda makes everything else a moot point, google play apps are served by google clouds (the author mentions this as well), so even if google couldn't remove the app from the phone, it could essentially cut the cords to the APIs and render the app useless. [2] 1 - https://jimcofer.com/2019/02/18/uninstalling-android-apps-via-adb/ https://jimcofer.com/2019/02/18/uninstalling-android-apps-vi... 2 - https://developer.android.com/guide/playcore/dynamic-delivery https://developer.android.com/guide/playcore/dynamic-deliver... Final thoughts: The author touches on this, but I don't think anyone really knows the answer. Google can remove TikTok, but will they (they haven't yet, right? lol)? EDIT: formatting and final thought
      - marctrem 6y ago
        > The push notification is, essentially, a JSON object. It’s a proto message, to be more precise.
    - takeda 6y ago
      They can install an app and similarly they can remove them, and they did it already many times, for example https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/google-deletes-malware-infected-android-apps-from-users-phones/ https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/smartphones/google-deletes...
mayama 6y ago
Couldn't open the article, not clear why it could be removed entirely from Play Store, not just US? Play store has country specific apps and they removed tiktok only from Indian store after the Indian ban. So, what is different this time?
- skissane 6y ago
  Google is a US company, and US law says that US companies (and their controlled foreign subsidiaries) must obey US trade sanctions globally. By contrast, the Indian ban was just a ban local to India, it was never intended to have extraterritorial effect
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Not legally. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-tiktok-and-wechat-transaction-prohibition https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-comment-tiktok-and-...
    - skissane 6y ago
      The ACLU's opinion is this violates the First Amendment. Will the Courts, and especially the Supreme Court, agree? My personal bet is that the Supreme Court will not agree with the ACLU on this. (Especially if Trump succeeds in appointing a conservative to replace Ruth Bader-Ginsburg.)
      - valuearb 6y ago
        Conservatives are strict constructionists when it comes to the constitution, and heavily lean on the idea that federal powers are restricted to those clearly enumerated. Trump has already been dealt a multitude of losses by “his” Supreme Court. Including a 7-2 ruling that he must disclose his personal tax records to prosecutors.

liopleurodon 6y ago

Great article. This answered a lot of questions that I was wondering about.

zmmmmm 6y ago

Half of this rationale seems to assume that TikTok can't modify the app to work independently of Play Services. But that is completely something they could do. In fact, I'd assume they have a Chinese version already developed with separate infrastructure. Not sure why it is assumed that is so hard. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if a super popular app like that went all in on a side loaded distribution mechanism.

patrickaljord 6y ago
Another issue is that TikTok relies on advertising for revenue and if US companies are banned from doing business with TikTok, they would need to run the app at a loss in the US at least. They could use their revenues from the rest of the world and the Chinese government to survive in the US. Not clear how that would affect TikTok sponsored influencers. Either way, the US could order ISPs to block TikTok servers, this would require a VPN and would kill TikTok for normies.
- zmmmmm 6y ago
  > Either way, the US could order ISPs to block TikTok servers Do you think there is any legal mechanism by which they can actually order ISPs to block a server? While blocking financial transactions has plenty of precedent, I'm not sure there is any for straight up blocking communication which looks a lot more like free speech. Especially with no basis in evidence to support actual wrong-doing.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Based on what I've seen in the past few decades, all you need to say are the magic words "national security" to justify anything and everything.
    - patrickaljord 6y ago
      I wouldn't say "national security" are the magic words. When Trump tried the Muslim ban it was overturned, same for building the wall which was justified by "national security". I think the magic happens when the issue is bipartisan, which is the case here as both parties are anti-China. When an issue is supported by both parties then it will pass 100% with no obstacles from the constitution or any laws.

on_and_off 6y ago

Site doesn't open. I wonder how this would work ? Google can for sure remove an app from the play store and maybe even remove it from play services enabled phones. If I am European and travel (in some hypothetic future where it is possible) to the USA, does tiktok get removed from my phone ? Edit : I can open now. Some notes re : different apks for sideloading. I don't know if the author is being malicious here but they are inventing problems that don't exist. Yeah, there can be multiple apks for a given app (that's the main idea behind app bundles). However if you distribute your app yourself you either - provide an universal apk that will install on all devices. It will be way larger since it needs to incorporate all the different possible configurations, but is trivial to make for a dev. - detect the user device config and provide a download link tailored to that device. I guess tiktok is popular enough to go that route, but that's just a minor engineering point. Also wow, very classy to insult people who use an app. Of course if you don't like a service people who do have to be dumb.

nzha 6y ago

Couldn't the US government tell the cloud providers that TikTok uses (supposing they are American as well) to stop serving requests from American IP addresses? TikTok could serve those requests from China but serving video from China would make the app unusable.

pjc50 6y ago

If you're missing Tiktok content, open the Instagram search tab and you'll see all their "reels" ... complete with tiktok watermarks in the corner. (this is a joke, but seriously I see quite a lot of them are just reposts; I believe the tiktok video editor is still best in class, although I've never tried it)

kevingadd 6y ago
Yeah, reposted Tiktok videos show up on Twitter nonstop as well. At least they're watermarked with the original author's name...

Firebrand 6y ago

>Let’s be very clear here. I am not a fan of TikTok. I had the misfortune of coming across it when it was still called Musically and I had to explain to a little girl that she, unlike her friends, was not allowed to dance for strangers. That ruined an otherwise perfect evening. I realize this isn’t the main point of the post but I’m very surprised this is pretty much an accepted thing now. I would have thought the Trump administration or the media would weaponize the potential exploitation of children and turn a complex geopolitical struggle into a moral panic for the public to more easily understand.

CreepGin 6y ago

So, how does China ban things like Youtube and Facebook? Both on the app store level and IP/Firewall level?

imglorp 6y ago

I'm concerned about the precedent of the government getting involved in app censorship on ideological grounds. Today TT, tomorrow whatever the Party or our Dear Leader doesn't find complimentary?

gameswithgo 6y ago
if we didn’t put up with centralized stores on mobile this wouldn’t be a practical possibility for the government to ban things. now for us to get an app to our users we have to be sure the dear leader apple/google AND dear leader government both approve.

Sargos 6y ago

Yes it can due to all phone apps being funneled through only 2 corporations. Until we get a more open mobile platform and a more decentralized mobile app store then governments have easy access to strict controls over what apps we are allowed to use.

4cao 6y ago

Not sure what the article says (doesn't open for me at the moment) but to answer the question: Access to Play Store apps can be restricted to certain countries. Such apps do not appear in search results. So it's possible for Tik Tok to disappear for anyone looking to install it in the US, or with a US-based Google account. However, as long as a device allows sideloading (installing apps from other, "unknown" sources), and most of them do, it's debatable whether it could be banned from people's devices. Google has some mechanisms to counter malware (Play Protect) but these are supposed to be used against "harmful" apps. It's debatable whether they would want to be involved in enforcing these restrictions this way. It might be difficult for most users to follow the instructions to sideload an app, however there was the precedent with Fortnite, where users were asked to download it directly from fortnite.com/android (or use a QR code), and it seems to have worked. As far as I recall the Fortnite app was also preloaded on some phones. The real difficulty for ByteDance might be something else altogether: namely, if the US prohibits doing business with the company, and the US users could no longer be monetized. Such a restriction would be very difficult to work around.