14 ms·

Netgear Firmware Requires Online Registration

255 points by lgats 6y ago

4cao 6y ago
> You can login and access all features through the local browser UI 3 times without registering the switch through your netgear.com account. How generous, for a device that people buy (not rent) from them, and pay actual money for (not receive for free). And apparently Netgear didn't even feel the need to bother including any contrived excuse as to why this is being introduced. What a time to be alive.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  The money is in managed services.
  - unnameduser1 6y ago
    Unless you use some cloud offering they have, there is no need for “managed services”. Buy router, plug it in, change password and rarely any setting required for average user. Not worth the monthly fees and data collection on users (name, email, location, credit card,...)
- gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  All low end proprietary network gear is going managed by cloud. Ubiquiti on the soho side and now consumer. Open source is the only equipment you can trust to not adopt this model as it’s much more profitable than shipping a box once every five years.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    It's optional with Ubiquiti.
    - jlgaddis 6y ago
      ... but the telemetry isn't, IIRC.
      - devrand 6y ago
        Is it not? I disabled diagnostic and analytics reporting, though it does occasionally ask me to turn it back on. Is there additional telemetry that cannot be disabled?
        dylz 6y ago
        When they pushed the firmware, iirc the telemetry was done without notice, opted in and enabled by default, and there was no way to actually opt out until _another firmware update after the uproar_
        0xy 6y ago
        Ubiquiti has never cared about security, if they did they wouldn't have been scammed for $40,000,000 via a literal scam email. If Ubiquiti staff has the non-existent procedures and corporate security for this to happen, they surely don't care about your privacy or security.
        mason55 6y ago
        So what is the alternative nowadays?
        craftoman 6y ago
        They didn't scammed, they washed some of the investors money. These kind of attacks are ridiculously hard to believe.
        devrand 6y ago
        Got it! Thank you for that context. I'm pretty sporadic about updates so I more than likely missed the gap when it was enabled by default and not available to be disabled. Not cool to do that :(.
  - 4cao 6y ago
    Netgear isn't (wasn't?) really low-end though. At least not priced as such. One would think they'd be making enough without having to resort to such tactics. You're right Ubiquiti did it though and I believe their devices are priced even higher. (Edit: note the post next to mine says you can opt out of this.) I agree replacing the stock firmware with an open-source aftermarket one like OpenWRT is the way to go but there's still the moral dilemma of supporting such practices with your wallet. I was also thinking if this could be an attempt to thwart the second-hand market for their devices? Is the binding to the online account permanent, or maybe it requires unbinding the previous account first?
    - foxdev 6y ago
      You can get a $20-40 Netgear router at Walmart.
  - ziml77 6y ago
    It's unfortunate that Ubiquiti is forcing telemetry on users. Having everything integrate into UniFi Controller is pretty neat. Like enough so that if I didn't already have an APU2 running pfSense, I'd very likely buy a UDM Pro despite it being immense overkill.
  - T3OU-736 6y ago
    I would posit that MikroTik is so far not doing this insanity, and price-wise is not far off from NetGear.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      Nor DrayTek, AFAIK. And those are the two brands that I consistently see recommended for SOHO network gear these days. They don't have the flashy UI of something like Ubiquiti, so you do have to know what you're doing to set them up, but they seem to make reliable hardware and solid firmware.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    Why can't we have network equipment that's designed from the ground up to run open source router firmwares? When my ISP gives me new networking hardware, the first thing I do is look for ways to flash new firmware on it or put it into bridge mode.
    - gabriel_shatana 6y ago
      There's librerouter actually, but Is more intended for mesh network scenarios. https://librerouter.org/ https://librerouter.org/
- starky 6y ago
  How handy, that should be plenty of logins to install Fresh Tomato on the router.
  - molticrystal 6y ago
    I used Tomato until around 2010 where I switched to dd-wrt, then around 2014 went with openwrt and haven't really followed Tomato in the last 10 years. I wouldn't mind going back to where I started and using Tomato again, so I was curious what major thing(s) they've done in the last 10 years and why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt.
    - 4cao 6y ago
      > why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt As far as I know the choice is constrained by the SoC in the device you have (or are planning to get): generally, Tomato has better support for Broadcom devices, and OpenWRT works better on Atheros. DD-WRT should be more balanced in this aspect. (And predictably, open-source support for MediaTek devices is the most patchy.) I haven't really used Tomato. Between DD-WRT and OpenWRT, the former is arguably easier to set up (through the GUI), while the latter can offer more functionality (with no hardcoded settings and a huge repository of installable packages). OpenWRT has higher memory and storage requirements though.
    - starky 6y ago
      I use Tomato because it seems to have the best support for the Netgear routers I've owned. Not much has changed in the way that I use it, other than the GUI has been updated. Fresh Tomato is the only fork that gets updated anymore, and it is mostly bug-fixes and updating the various Linux packages, not new features.
- m463 6y ago
  This is becoming the dark-pattern-du-jour. I get this with videoconferencing too (webex, teams), where the app starts downloading and the ability to do what you want (use the browser) is hidden or delayed until you've failed.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    If you mean dark as in Darth Vader choke grip dark, and not dark as in subtle under the radar manipulation dark pattern, then yes.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      I realise HN isn't known for its sense of humour, but if this trend doesn't justify an analogy about being in a cloud city, setting a trap, someone altering a deal, and praying it isn't altered any further, I don't know what does.
  - bbx 6y ago
    I noticed that too. A few weeks ago, clicking on a Zoom link in your browser would trigger an automatic download of the app installer (which I don’t want). The webpage would still display an “or launch in the browser” link. But yesterday I noticed the link was gone, thinking the only option was to install the app (which I still don’t want). But it turns out the browser link appears after a 5-second delay. I wonder how many people installed the app thinking it was the only option now. I assume a lot of people. Or how to increase your install numbers with that one weird trick. Very sneaky.
    - dunham 6y ago
      I didn’t know there was a web mode. I’ve been using my iPad for zoom, because it’s the only way I could think of to sandbox it.
    - redprince 6y ago
      I have found the Windows 10 Sandbox feature quite useful to deal with the random teleconferencing software. It fires up an empty Windows 10 HyperV VM in a few seconds, audio is passed through both ways. After the session is finished, close the VM and everything is gone.
- userbinator 6y ago
  I wonder how long until this gets hacked, and someone releases a cracked firmware with this idiocy removed. Clearly, the functionality is already there if it can be accessed "3 times". This is the dark side of the "update culture" --- forcing you to take all the things you don't want along with the bug fixes. Aided by dire security warnings of not updating, it's a perfect way to achieve control over your userbase.
  - jhawk28 6y ago
    You can probably install tomato, ddwrt, or openwrt.
    - bitwize 6y ago
      Until they lock down the bootloaders...
    - kogepathic 6y ago
      I have serious doubts. Having worked with switch ASIC vendors before (Marvell, Broadcom), they require you to sign a mile long NDA before you can even access datasheets. If you can get the switch vendor to release a GPL archive (which is often a struggle in of itself) I have never seen them release the source code to manage the switch ASIC. That's always built as an out-of-tree module which is not released as part of the GPL archive. Many switches are not even running Linux, it's quite typical to see eCos, VxWorks, or an RTOS (e.g. ThreadX) on a switch. tl;dr - even if the switch runs Linux (many don't), it is very unlikely you will have the datasheet and/or reference implementation for managing the switch ASIC
  - unnameduser1 6y ago
    More likely there to be a security breach at Netgear & similar companies within next 2-5years. Of course the registered data would be exposed and downloaded.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  What is the benefit/incentive for Netgear? Why are they pulling such a move?
  - swirepe 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism
    - andybak 6y ago
      Isn't it more likely that's it's a push to more lucrative subscription services? Could you clarify what you're claiming here? The obvious interpretation seems far fetched.
    - malwarebytess 6y ago
      Seems like both that as well as a way to ramp into SAS subscription nonsense. Who would have thought that despicable model would make its escape from B2B into the retail market...
squarefoot 6y ago
Landfills will welcome the load of Netgear hardware that cannot be sold as used anymore, although perfectly working, because of this nonsense.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- toxik 6y ago
  Which is exactly the intended effect. Non transferable -> more sales, they reason. See also Microsoft and Sony’s latest console releases.
- unstatusthequo 6y ago
  Nah. The majority of owners are not HN types. They don’t even know what firmware is, or why you should update it or how.
greatgib 6y ago
Soon you will not be able to use a switch on a private network not connected to the internet thanks to these assholes... No more Netgear device for me!
- hinkley 6y ago
  I wonder how hard it is to build your own switch these days? Maybe something built around a Pi class SBC?
  - nicolaslem 6y ago
    If you don't care about performance, any computer can bridge multiple interfaces in software and behave like a switch.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      15 years ago all of the better switches could internally handle the aggregate bandwidth of all of their ports. I assumed that would be standard now, but shopping for a switch recently I discovered I was wrong. We still have switches where you can’t max out all ports at the same time. I think you could still make one that doesn’t have that problem, but the memory would limit doing much smart switch work. If any.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    Building a switch is (relatively) easy. Building a switch that can offer acceptable performance in a box with enough ports on it to be useful is harder. It's not immediately obvious what advantage you'd gain by doing that anyway, since you can just buy a white box switch and run your own software on it.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      There are chips out there already, aren't there? I think the Turing Pi board has a switch built into it (and an ethernet chip per slot, which is maybe not so good)
stjohnswarts 6y ago
thanks for the heads up. I guess it's tp-link for cheap wifi routers then
- ziml77 6y ago
  Fortunately this does appear to be specific to managed switches which are sold as having cloud management functionality. I don't think you have to worry about their normal routers having this restriction.
nokya 6y ago
Reminds me of years ago, when Microsoft started forcing players to be online when playing on xbox...which was minutes before I decided I would never need an xbox :)
- gruez 6y ago
  didn't they backpeddle on that? https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-pulls-a-180-reverses-xbox-one-always-on-drm-and-used-games-policy/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-pulls-a-180-reverses-xbo...
  - bigiain 6y ago
    Even if they did, deciding to do it in the first place tells you something important about them. For some people, that said "do not ever trust these evil fuckers, they'll sell you out whenever they can do so without too much public backlash..." This it the tech industry version of politicians dropping bad news as 4:59pm on a Friday.
  - nokya 6y ago
    They did, but that only came after a huge backlash by gamers. In my case, I perceived this as a signal that Microsoft was interested in monetizing my data when playing video games (e.g. schedule, hours spent, progression, overall cognitive capabilities, etc.) to third parties that will use this data without my informed consent (not to be confused with the consent given to Microsoft to "share with partners"). I still find this totally unacceptable today.
- gcb0 6y ago
  Or when facebook, yesterday, went back on the promise that their acquired VR headsets would never require a facebook account.
InitEnabler 6y ago
Just another reason why I hate Netgear products. Had a wireless G card that worked perfectly fine with XP and when Vista came put it had no driver support even though it was product that wasn't discontinued.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  I think I had the same one. Seriously, it feels like networking hardware is the armpit of the industry. A place where "approximately functional as long as you reboot it weekly and don't use any of its advertised features" appears to be considered good enough by their QA.
jlgaddis 6y ago
(ITT: Plenty of comments from folks who clearly didn't bother to RTFA.) This appears to be for one specific product, a "smart cloud switch" [0] (which comes with a "1-Year Insight Subscription"). I don't see anything to indicate that the product registration requirement applies to any of their other products.
- m463 6y ago
  I bought one of their 108 series managed switches, and "managed switch" always meant a management interface, vs an unmanaged switch. So there could be confusion.
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  The firmware says you can't access the local browser UI. Insight management is for the online management UI. Even if you don't pay for insight, you should be able to access your switch locally without needing Netgear's permission.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    According the the relevant Netgear Knowledge Base article[0], config file uploads and downloads are supported without registration. I'd expect (I do not own one of these devices) that configuration without restriction can be done by uploading a modified config file. Perhaps someone who owns a NETGEAR Smart Managed Pro Switch could chime in to confirm or refute that. [0] https://kb.netgear.com/000061174 https://kb.netgear.com/000061174
Zak 6y ago
It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed through Netgear's subscription service. Here's what's possible without the cloud service: https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-NETGEAR-Smart-Managed-Pro-Switch-can-I-access-without-registering https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-NETGEAR... And here are the features of the cloud service: https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-Insight https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-Insight
- manigandham 6y ago
  In this case, it doesn't seem that bad. Limited to remote monitoring and management features but I wouldn't want that anyway.
- ronnier 6y ago
  It's not true. If you want to use all the features on my POE Netgear switch, you have to online register and use a code to unlock full access to local mode. There's no cloud features involved. You have to register online just to use all the features of the switch locally.
- 4cao 6y ago
  Seems this applies to certain categories of devices [1] and then it's $5/yr for the Basic "Insight" plan (mobile app only) [2] or either $1/mo or $10/yr [3] for the "Premium" one (access via web browser as well and some additional features). First 2 devices are free. From what I'm reading, it seems like you're required to register some devices or their functionality will be reduced, and then if the device can also be managed through the cloud interface (regardless of whether you actually want to be managing it that way), it will count against the free device limit (as long as you register it under the same account). However, it also looks like these products were advertised as such from the start. I previously thought that this was forced upon the users through a firmware update. 1. https://kb.netgear.com/000048452/What-devices-can-I-discover-monitor-and-manage-with-Insight https://kb.netgear.com/000048452/What-devices-can-I-discover... 2. https://kb.netgear.com/000053256/What-Insight-subscription-plans-are-available https://kb.netgear.com/000053256/What-Insight-subscription-p... 3. https://kb.netgear.com/000053255/What-countries-and-currencies-are-Insight-subscription-plans-available-in https://kb.netgear.com/000053255/What-countries-and-currenci...
rektide 6y ago
Wow jeeze. This is such a different & bad look from the netgear I know. This is hard to see. Netgear has been one of the main companies to go to if you care about using your hardware. They have had a spirited MyOpenRouter community[1] for their systems, with great firmwares & flexibile package-add-ons developed with assistance from their solid-gold readily-reproduceable GPL releases[2]. I just had a somewhat overlong thread about Broadcom chipset routers having headed towards being impervious & useless, resistant to any experimentation, & bereft of open source firmwares[3], & a general trend in wifi of routers getting less & less general purpose & user-centric hardware, under increasingly consumeristic teiring[3]. While hardware alternatives vanish. This news doesn't mean Netgear is going to go totally darkside & cut off the amazing innovation they've let grow under them, but it sure is frightening that it could be part of that wider scary course into darkness & ignorance that wifi seems to be heading down. Own the means of production. Own the means of communication. Do not stop short, do not accept less. [1] https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum [2] https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Programmers-GPL https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Pro... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265 Edit: hopefully much ado about nothing; seems this change only applies to their cloud ️ services > It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed through Netgear's subscription service. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  From the article: > product registration is required to unlock full access to the local browser UI. Emphasis mine.
usr1106 6y ago
Is that device sold in the EU? What about GDPR? Well, it seems to be a switch and private households are less likely to run a switch. But still some people might. So will the device still work after you ask them to delete your data? For a company on the other hand you might want to have secure systems not connected to the Internet at any time.
duxup 6y ago
My new clothes washer has an app. It requires access to location, and phone settings or the app closes by design. I don't think this stuff stops without legislation.
- chrisbolt 6y ago
  What brand? So I know what to avoid in the future.
  - duxup 6y ago
    LG
    - brewdad 6y ago
      That's really disappointing as LG has been my go to brand for many of my appliance purchases including a washer and dryer a few years ago.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - woadwarrior01 6y ago
      It's the same with LG TVs. The remote app on iOS for my 2018 LG OLED TV does not launch without granting it location access. I don't understand why a TV remote app would ever need location access?
      - Ayesh 6y ago
        Yesterday, the app refused to even start up until I updated it to the latest version.
      - m463 6y ago
        I thought apple didn't allow that.
      - pcdoodle 6y ago
shock 6y ago
I recently bought a couple of Netgear Managed Switches (for Business)⁰ and in their datasheet they list "Local-only management" as a feature. Only after they arrived we discovered that you only get limited functionality in the Local-only management mode, you have to register the switches to your Netgear Cloud account to get access to the full functionality. Reading up on it, this was achieved only after a community outcry because in the prior firmware versions the switch would have to connect to the Netgear Cloud on every bootup. Needless to say I would not have bought the swiches if I had knew I needed to register them to Netgear Cloud to have access to the full functionality specified in the data sheet. If I had bought them as a consumer, not as a business, I would have returned them immediately. Netgear are now on our purchasing blacklist. ⓪ - the switches are Netgear GS-108Tv3
- jchw 6y ago
  I ran into a similar issue with a Linksys consumer router. Needless to say, that was back in the box and to the retailer in a new york minute. I ended up going with Ubiquiti equipment for now, since it was available locally. Much more expensive and complicated but Linksys convinced me it was worth any cost to get the hell away from them. But I will definitely be looking into the Turris Omnia, pfSense devices, and maybe even reusing my current Ubiquiti AP with OpenWRT, next time I need to muck with networking.
  - ksec 6y ago
    Which is why I really really want Apple to come back to the Router Market. I miss my Airport Extreme.
    - dunham 6y ago
      I’ve still got mine. I should replace it with something newer, but I’m not sure what, if anything, is safe and secure.
      - ksec 6y ago
        That was how I replaced mine, I wanted something new to play around with. Turns out it wasn't much fun...... For now I will wait for WiFi 6E from Ubnt.
ethanwillis 6y ago
I was gonna buy a new DOCSIS 3.1 netgear modem for my gigabit service. Guess I won't be doing that now. I'm tired of this type of bullshit. It's exactly why I'm leaning really heavily towards Mikrotik for all of my networking gear at home. These types of devices are user hostile, bad for the environment, and set a precedent for a type of world we shouldn't want to live in.
- KitDuncan 6y ago
  I am also in the market for a docsis 3.1 modem. What are you going for?
  - ethanwillis 6y ago
    Well, I'm running a SB6190 right now. I guess I'm going to go with either an SB8200 or a motorolla MB8600. One thing I like about the SB8200 is that if I ever go back to running a "business" connection at home I can have a second IP assigned to the second WAN port it has. I also plan on modifying the modem to fit into my network rack without a shelf like so: https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/ft579e/finally_got_fed_up_with_my_cable_modem_being/ https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/ft579e/finally_got... So the actual internal matter a little bit to me as well.
    - banana_giraffe 6y ago
      Be aware the SB8200 runs a Puma chipset. For all I know modern versions of this chipset on modems are OK now, but I have a headache that will probably never going away trying to work around latency and DOS issues with one of these in a situation where I couldn't change out the DOCSIS modem for reasons that were out of my control. It's in my "never touch again for any reason" bucket now as a result.
      - p1mrx 6y ago
        Incorrect, the SB8200 has a Broadcom BCM3390: http://en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Arris_SB8200 http://en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Arris_SB8200
Pxtl 6y ago
I had a Nighthawk router of some persuasion that was so infuriatingly buggy it took years off my life. A bad router is so maddening that the curse "may your brakes work as well as your firmware" repeatedly came to mind. Never again.
- bserge 6y ago
  Only buy something that works with OpenWRT. Or at least has hardware that is compatible so you can make your own build or have someone else do it. And contribute to the project, if you can. I'm still on a now ancient TP-Link router, it works absolutely flawlessly with all the features one might need. I know newer routers can be faster on stock firmware because of proprietary stuff, but fuck that, if I need Gigabit, I'll use wires. WiFi N speeds are good enough for me.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
  Which one? My R7000 works perfectly fine, since years.
  - Pxtl 6y ago
    That's the exact one, actually. It would constantly go into a sort of "soft crash" mode where it would continue to run as a wifi router but with more dropped packets and the web interface was inaccessible. It was a nightmare. I assume I just got a dud, but what a dud. It was such a gradual downward slide into being unusable that it was beyond warranty when I finally figured out it was unsalvageable.
    - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
      The worst kind of failure mode, hope you lit it on fire or something.
SMAAART 6y ago
in related news Cottonelle and Quilted Northern now require registration before use. Charmin declined to comment.
pineyboi 6y ago
Razer has done something similar with their peripherals. I remember buying a Razer keyboard that I later realized required an online account and some Synapse software to configure in any meaningful way. Quickest return I ever made. Razer's privacy policy is dicey and then there's this[0] which inspires loads of confidence. [0]: https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-customer-data-via-leaky-server https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-custom...
- manigandham 6y ago
  Razer Synapse has removed that requirement now, you can use local guest account without registering.
  - distances 6y ago
    Such a relief really to use Linux, the hardware just works out of the box. Or in theory could also be it doesn't work at all since there won't be downloadable drivers, but in practice all my peripherals have worked great.
    - resfirestar 6y ago
      If you didn’t know, there are open source drivers for many Razer peripherals that let you control things like colors and macros: https://openrazer.github.io/ https://openrazer.github.io/
  - encom 6y ago
    The Synapse software is absolute trash. I've used Logitech mice since forever, but their quality has taken a nose dive, so I bought a Razor Deathadder. Because everyone markets their products towards 13 year-olds, it's called "Deathadder" and it's stuffed full of RGB LEDs. To disable the LEDs, you must install the Synapse software which is Electron trash, because nobody writes real software any more. And you have to KEEP this software installed, to keep the LEDs off. If you uninstall it, the LEDs come right back on. So I did what anyone would do: I took a screwdriver and a sidecutter, ripped out the leds and threw them in the trash.
hinkley 6y ago
When I first encountered netgear hardware, it ran far hotter than any other equipment. When I had a five port switch that was so hot I could nearly burn myself touching it, I stopped buying their gear. Are they still the laggard in this respect, or have they gotten better?
anfilt 6y ago
This is insanity. Stuff like this just seems to get worse every year smh.
nuker 6y ago
I'd recommend OPNSense and miniPC with a few LAN ports from aliexpress for both, home and SME.
zakki 6y ago
Why no backlash for iOS and Android? We have to register to use the devices.
- unnameduser1 6y ago
  You dont have to register for ios and android. For sure not with you real data. Anonymous email suffices. And you do get services by both platforms for free included in your purchase. Push notifications, automatic updates, free messaging and not to speak about tons of free apps to use.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  I don't think that is correct. What sort of registration are you thinking of?
- m463 6y ago
  I believe you no longer have to register your ios device - but it is a dark pattern. On the screen to enter your apple id, you don't have a "skip" choice, you have to say "don't have one" and I believe then you can skip setting up an apple id. You can use it like a phone at that point - you can send text messages and make calls, but I don't believe you can install any apps. That said - you must go online - turn on cellular data or wifi before you can use the phone, it must be "activated". And apple phones home a lot.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    And apple phones home a lot. I see this sort of claim often, but reliable information about the specifics is hard to come by. Can you share any?
    - m463 6y ago
      On a mac run little snitch. On a current ios iphone, I'm uncertain but i run an older version of ios with adblockios. It contacts a whole slew of apple and 3rd party sites. the main one is that it contacts *.ls.apple.com all the time (location services) even with location services turned off. lots of other apple sites. third party is akamai all the time, but also sites like phicdn.net and att.net (I have an at&t iphone). I do not have any at&t app installed. on macos catalina, you can (currently still) run little snitch and all kinds of services start contacting apple. and new ones have shown up like touristd and rapportd. Every time you try to pull up a help page. Every account you configure, apple based or not. sigh.
cyansmoker 6y ago
LOL @bug fixes: "Default IP route configuration disappears after reset" Literally the device's bread and butter and it fails that. Not sure I care about its management interface after reading that.
yaris 6y ago
I wonder what could serve as the replacement for Netgear switches. I have a couple GS108s at home and thought to buy a couple more. After such news I don’t want to even come close to NG, but from possible alternatives I’m familiar only with Linksys which are not an option really. What are other brands to consider?
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  I've got a managed Zyxel switch at home. Not exactly a challenging setup, 4 vlans and that's it, but apart from a known firmware bug with multicast when I first bought it, with an update already available, there have been no issues at all. Would buy again.
lilSebastian 6y ago
In the market for a new home router. Keen to avoid such stupidity. Can anyone recommend a modern, powerful router that supports dd/openwrt?
- vimalbhalodia 6y ago
  GL.inet is a brand I've been a fan of for a while: https://www.gl-inet.com/ https://www.gl-inet.com/ They have a range of personal/SOHO routers that all run officially-supported-by-manufacturer OpenWRT, and their own UI skin isn't bad (though easy to switch to LuCI if you want) Reading through their support forums is what sold me on them - their firmware engineers actually pay attention to issues, engage in threads, and respond with patched firmwares.
  - internalfx 6y ago
    This looks like the manufacturer I've been looking for, bookmarked for future purchases.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
the_biot 6y ago
That switch is based on a Realtek RTL838x/RTL839x SoC. An effort is currently underway to properly support these in openWRT and the mainline Linux kernel. First patch in OpenWRT is in: https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df8e6be59a1fbce3f8c6878fe7440a129b1245d6 https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df... These SoCs are used in a lot of consumer-level switches, so it's a target-rich environment! We're populating a wiki to keep track of it all, feel free to join in if you can help: https://biot.com/switches/ https://biot.com/switches/
- aojdwhsd 6y ago
  Nice! This is exciting as I own an early GS110TPv3. Would a very early firmware image help you in any with this effort (v1.0.0.4)? My switch is booted into a more recent firmware version now (7.x.x.x) but if I recall, the cloud features were not present in 1.0.0.4.
  - the_biot 6y ago
    Not really, the firmware is what we aim to replace. But if you want your device supported, you can pitch in. Post description/pics in the wiki, help test code, etc.
ThomasMidgley 6y ago
This mentioned product is marked as "GC108P — Insight Managed 8-port Gigabit Ethernet PoE+ Smart Cloud Switch with FlexPoE Power". So, what is the problem? You got, what you payed for. ;-) If you want to have a product with local management, then buy another one without "Insight" capabilities, e.g. one of the "Standalone Smart managed Pro" line: https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/standalone-smart-switch.aspx#tab-models https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/sta...
Supersaiyan_IV 6y ago
Netgear doesn't even care that the "ReadySHARE" almost all their routers are marketed with, is broken: https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/ReadySHARE-User-Credentials/idi-p/1855163 https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/Read... Why would I ever want to enable SMB 1.0 (security issues, deprecated) on my R8000. And even then, shares require admin credentials. IMO this is refund material.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > IMO this is refund material. It's also the kind of thing EU regulators pick up on.
supernova87a 6y ago
Maybe if the US wants to get serious (or at least effective) about security, we need ridiculousness like this to be regulated/outlawed.
barbs 6y ago
Can anyone recommend a good router that's good for putting openWRT on and isn't so user-hostile?
60Vhipx7b4JL 6y ago
I'm an embedded systems student and this makes me sad and angry. I worked with software update mechanisms and they are an essential part of every IoT product. They are needed to supply the product with security updates and consumers should be trained to allow for automatic updates as maintaining 20 devices is not something your average user will do manually. Or at least to install updates when they come along. This just fucks the consumer as it includes a massive inconvenience. What's going to happen? They won't install the update as they don't want shit forced down their throat. But the bad taste stays, and instead of installing a risky update on other devices or investing the time researching, the consumers will just keep them at the current software state. Thanks Netgear for fucking a whole industry.
aojdwhsd 6y ago
I can upload the firmware image v1.0.0.4 from my GS110TPv3 dated 2018-10-04 if anyone is interested... I don't think the cloud features were enabled on this one.
- shock 6y ago
  Yes, please.
joe33433 6y ago
Just flash openwrt.org and its amazing
Sosowski 6y ago
Recently I found an old TP-Link wall-plug WiFi extender which defaults to a .com domain name for configuration. All is fine when you don't have internet access, but once you configured it, you'll find out that TP-Link lost access to the config-bound domain and now it's a website full of malware and the config keeps redirecting you there. And they're still selling these (hopefully with updated firmware)
- robotnikman 6y ago
  wow, thats kinda horrifying. I wonder how they even let that slip

255 points by lgats 6y ago

4cao 6y ago

> You can login and access all features through the local browser UI 3 times without registering the switch through your netgear.com account. How generous, for a device that people buy (not rent) from them, and pay actual money for (not receive for free). And apparently Netgear didn't even feel the need to bother including any contrived excuse as to why this is being introduced. What a time to be alive.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
The money is in managed services.
- unnameduser1 6y ago
  Unless you use some cloud offering they have, there is no need for “managed services”. Buy router, plug it in, change password and rarely any setting required for average user. Not worth the monthly fees and data collection on users (name, email, location, credit card,...)
gogopuppygogo 6y ago
All low end proprietary network gear is going managed by cloud. Ubiquiti on the soho side and now consumer. Open source is the only equipment you can trust to not adopt this model as it’s much more profitable than shipping a box once every five years.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  It's optional with Ubiquiti.
  - jlgaddis 6y ago
    ... but the telemetry isn't, IIRC.
    - devrand 6y ago
      Is it not? I disabled diagnostic and analytics reporting, though it does occasionally ask me to turn it back on. Is there additional telemetry that cannot be disabled?
      - dylz 6y ago
        When they pushed the firmware, iirc the telemetry was done without notice, opted in and enabled by default, and there was no way to actually opt out until _another firmware update after the uproar_
        0xy 6y ago
        Ubiquiti has never cared about security, if they did they wouldn't have been scammed for $40,000,000 via a literal scam email. If Ubiquiti staff has the non-existent procedures and corporate security for this to happen, they surely don't care about your privacy or security.
        mason55 6y ago
        So what is the alternative nowadays?
        craftoman 6y ago
        They didn't scammed, they washed some of the investors money. These kind of attacks are ridiculously hard to believe.
        devrand 6y ago
        Got it! Thank you for that context. I'm pretty sporadic about updates so I more than likely missed the gap when it was enabled by default and not available to be disabled. Not cool to do that :(.
- 4cao 6y ago
  Netgear isn't (wasn't?) really low-end though. At least not priced as such. One would think they'd be making enough without having to resort to such tactics. You're right Ubiquiti did it though and I believe their devices are priced even higher. (Edit: note the post next to mine says you can opt out of this.) I agree replacing the stock firmware with an open-source aftermarket one like OpenWRT is the way to go but there's still the moral dilemma of supporting such practices with your wallet. I was also thinking if this could be an attempt to thwart the second-hand market for their devices? Is the binding to the online account permanent, or maybe it requires unbinding the previous account first?
  - foxdev 6y ago
    You can get a $20-40 Netgear router at Walmart.
- ziml77 6y ago
  It's unfortunate that Ubiquiti is forcing telemetry on users. Having everything integrate into UniFi Controller is pretty neat. Like enough so that if I didn't already have an APU2 running pfSense, I'd very likely buy a UDM Pro despite it being immense overkill.
- T3OU-736 6y ago
  I would posit that MikroTik is so far not doing this insanity, and price-wise is not far off from NetGear.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    Nor DrayTek, AFAIK. And those are the two brands that I consistently see recommended for SOHO network gear these days. They don't have the flashy UI of something like Ubiquiti, so you do have to know what you're doing to set them up, but they seem to make reliable hardware and solid firmware.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Why can't we have network equipment that's designed from the ground up to run open source router firmwares? When my ISP gives me new networking hardware, the first thing I do is look for ways to flash new firmware on it or put it into bridge mode.
  - gabriel_shatana 6y ago
    There's librerouter actually, but Is more intended for mesh network scenarios. https://librerouter.org/ https://librerouter.org/
starky 6y ago
How handy, that should be plenty of logins to install Fresh Tomato on the router.
- molticrystal 6y ago
  I used Tomato until around 2010 where I switched to dd-wrt, then around 2014 went with openwrt and haven't really followed Tomato in the last 10 years. I wouldn't mind going back to where I started and using Tomato again, so I was curious what major thing(s) they've done in the last 10 years and why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt.
  - 4cao 6y ago
    > why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt As far as I know the choice is constrained by the SoC in the device you have (or are planning to get): generally, Tomato has better support for Broadcom devices, and OpenWRT works better on Atheros. DD-WRT should be more balanced in this aspect. (And predictably, open-source support for MediaTek devices is the most patchy.) I haven't really used Tomato. Between DD-WRT and OpenWRT, the former is arguably easier to set up (through the GUI), while the latter can offer more functionality (with no hardcoded settings and a huge repository of installable packages). OpenWRT has higher memory and storage requirements though.
  - starky 6y ago
    I use Tomato because it seems to have the best support for the Netgear routers I've owned. Not much has changed in the way that I use it, other than the GUI has been updated. Fresh Tomato is the only fork that gets updated anymore, and it is mostly bug-fixes and updating the various Linux packages, not new features.
m463 6y ago
This is becoming the dark-pattern-du-jour. I get this with videoconferencing too (webex, teams), where the app starts downloading and the ability to do what you want (use the browser) is hidden or delayed until you've failed.
- colordrops 6y ago
  If you mean dark as in Darth Vader choke grip dark, and not dark as in subtle under the radar manipulation dark pattern, then yes.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    I realise HN isn't known for its sense of humour, but if this trend doesn't justify an analogy about being in a cloud city, setting a trap, someone altering a deal, and praying it isn't altered any further, I don't know what does.
- bbx 6y ago
  I noticed that too. A few weeks ago, clicking on a Zoom link in your browser would trigger an automatic download of the app installer (which I don’t want). The webpage would still display an “or launch in the browser” link. But yesterday I noticed the link was gone, thinking the only option was to install the app (which I still don’t want). But it turns out the browser link appears after a 5-second delay. I wonder how many people installed the app thinking it was the only option now. I assume a lot of people. Or how to increase your install numbers with that one weird trick. Very sneaky.
  - dunham 6y ago
    I didn’t know there was a web mode. I’ve been using my iPad for zoom, because it’s the only way I could think of to sandbox it.
  - redprince 6y ago
    I have found the Windows 10 Sandbox feature quite useful to deal with the random teleconferencing software. It fires up an empty Windows 10 HyperV VM in a few seconds, audio is passed through both ways. After the session is finished, close the VM and everything is gone.
userbinator 6y ago
I wonder how long until this gets hacked, and someone releases a cracked firmware with this idiocy removed. Clearly, the functionality is already there if it can be accessed "3 times". This is the dark side of the "update culture" --- forcing you to take all the things you don't want along with the bug fixes. Aided by dire security warnings of not updating, it's a perfect way to achieve control over your userbase.
- jhawk28 6y ago
  You can probably install tomato, ddwrt, or openwrt.
  - bitwize 6y ago
    Until they lock down the bootloaders...
  - kogepathic 6y ago
    I have serious doubts. Having worked with switch ASIC vendors before (Marvell, Broadcom), they require you to sign a mile long NDA before you can even access datasheets. If you can get the switch vendor to release a GPL archive (which is often a struggle in of itself) I have never seen them release the source code to manage the switch ASIC. That's always built as an out-of-tree module which is not released as part of the GPL archive. Many switches are not even running Linux, it's quite typical to see eCos, VxWorks, or an RTOS (e.g. ThreadX) on a switch. tl;dr - even if the switch runs Linux (many don't), it is very unlikely you will have the datasheet and/or reference implementation for managing the switch ASIC
- unnameduser1 6y ago
  More likely there to be a security breach at Netgear & similar companies within next 2-5years. Of course the registered data would be exposed and downloaded.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
What is the benefit/incentive for Netgear? Why are they pulling such a move?
- swirepe 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism
  - andybak 6y ago
    Isn't it more likely that's it's a push to more lucrative subscription services? Could you clarify what you're claiming here? The obvious interpretation seems far fetched.
  - malwarebytess 6y ago
    Seems like both that as well as a way to ramp into SAS subscription nonsense. Who would have thought that despicable model would make its escape from B2B into the retail market...

squarefoot 6y ago

Landfills will welcome the load of Netgear hardware that cannot be sold as used anymore, although perfectly working, because of this nonsense.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
toxik 6y ago
Which is exactly the intended effect. Non transferable -> more sales, they reason. See also Microsoft and Sony’s latest console releases.
unstatusthequo 6y ago
Nah. The majority of owners are not HN types. They don’t even know what firmware is, or why you should update it or how.

greatgib 6y ago

Soon you will not be able to use a switch on a private network not connected to the internet thanks to these assholes... No more Netgear device for me!

hinkley 6y ago
I wonder how hard it is to build your own switch these days? Maybe something built around a Pi class SBC?
- nicolaslem 6y ago
  If you don't care about performance, any computer can bridge multiple interfaces in software and behave like a switch.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    15 years ago all of the better switches could internally handle the aggregate bandwidth of all of their ports. I assumed that would be standard now, but shopping for a switch recently I discovered I was wrong. We still have switches where you can’t max out all ports at the same time. I think you could still make one that doesn’t have that problem, but the memory would limit doing much smart switch work. If any.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  Building a switch is (relatively) easy. Building a switch that can offer acceptable performance in a box with enough ports on it to be useful is harder. It's not immediately obvious what advantage you'd gain by doing that anyway, since you can just buy a white box switch and run your own software on it.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    There are chips out there already, aren't there? I think the Turing Pi board has a switch built into it (and an ethernet chip per slot, which is maybe not so good)

stjohnswarts 6y ago

thanks for the heads up. I guess it's tp-link for cheap wifi routers then

ziml77 6y ago
Fortunately this does appear to be specific to managed switches which are sold as having cloud management functionality. I don't think you have to worry about their normal routers having this restriction.

nokya 6y ago

Reminds me of years ago, when Microsoft started forcing players to be online when playing on xbox...which was minutes before I decided I would never need an xbox :)

gruez 6y ago
didn't they backpeddle on that? https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-pulls-a-180-reverses-xbox-one-always-on-drm-and-used-games-policy/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-pulls-a-180-reverses-xbo...
- bigiain 6y ago
  Even if they did, deciding to do it in the first place tells you something important about them. For some people, that said "do not ever trust these evil fuckers, they'll sell you out whenever they can do so without too much public backlash..." This it the tech industry version of politicians dropping bad news as 4:59pm on a Friday.
- nokya 6y ago
  They did, but that only came after a huge backlash by gamers. In my case, I perceived this as a signal that Microsoft was interested in monetizing my data when playing video games (e.g. schedule, hours spent, progression, overall cognitive capabilities, etc.) to third parties that will use this data without my informed consent (not to be confused with the consent given to Microsoft to "share with partners"). I still find this totally unacceptable today.
gcb0 6y ago
Or when facebook, yesterday, went back on the promise that their acquired VR headsets would never require a facebook account.

InitEnabler 6y ago

Just another reason why I hate Netgear products. Had a wireless G card that worked perfectly fine with XP and when Vista came put it had no driver support even though it was product that wasn't discontinued.

Pxtl 6y ago
I think I had the same one. Seriously, it feels like networking hardware is the armpit of the industry. A place where "approximately functional as long as you reboot it weekly and don't use any of its advertised features" appears to be considered good enough by their QA.

jlgaddis 6y ago

(ITT: Plenty of comments from folks who clearly didn't bother to RTFA.) This appears to be for one specific product, a "smart cloud switch" [0] (which comes with a "1-Year Insight Subscription"). I don't see anything to indicate that the product registration requirement applies to any of their other products.

m463 6y ago
I bought one of their 108 series managed switches, and "managed switch" always meant a management interface, vs an unmanaged switch. So there could be confusion.
d3nj4l 6y ago
The firmware says you can't access the local browser UI. Insight management is for the online management UI. Even if you don't pay for insight, you should be able to access your switch locally without needing Netgear's permission.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  According the the relevant Netgear Knowledge Base article[0], config file uploads and downloads are supported without registration. I'd expect (I do not own one of these devices) that configuration without restriction can be done by uploading a modified config file. Perhaps someone who owns a NETGEAR Smart Managed Pro Switch could chime in to confirm or refute that. [0] https://kb.netgear.com/000061174 https://kb.netgear.com/000061174

Zak 6y ago

It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed through Netgear's subscription service. Here's what's possible without the cloud service: https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-NETGEAR-Smart-Managed-Pro-Switch-can-I-access-without-registering https://kb.netgear.com/000061174/What-features-of-my-NETGEAR... And here are the features of the cloud service: https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-Insight https://kb.netgear.com/000044342/What-can-I-do-with-Insight

manigandham 6y ago
In this case, it doesn't seem that bad. Limited to remote monitoring and management features but I wouldn't want that anyway.
ronnier 6y ago
It's not true. If you want to use all the features on my POE Netgear switch, you have to online register and use a code to unlock full access to local mode. There's no cloud features involved. You have to register online just to use all the features of the switch locally.
4cao 6y ago
Seems this applies to certain categories of devices [1] and then it's $5/yr for the Basic "Insight" plan (mobile app only) [2] or either $1/mo or $10/yr [3] for the "Premium" one (access via web browser as well and some additional features). First 2 devices are free. From what I'm reading, it seems like you're required to register some devices or their functionality will be reduced, and then if the device can also be managed through the cloud interface (regardless of whether you actually want to be managing it that way), it will count against the free device limit (as long as you register it under the same account). However, it also looks like these products were advertised as such from the start. I previously thought that this was forced upon the users through a firmware update. 1. https://kb.netgear.com/000048452/What-devices-can-I-discover-monitor-and-manage-with-Insight https://kb.netgear.com/000048452/What-devices-can-I-discover... 2. https://kb.netgear.com/000053256/What-Insight-subscription-plans-are-available https://kb.netgear.com/000053256/What-Insight-subscription-p... 3. https://kb.netgear.com/000053255/What-countries-and-currencies-are-Insight-subscription-plans-available-in https://kb.netgear.com/000053255/What-countries-and-currenci...

rektide 6y ago

Wow jeeze. This is such a different & bad look from the netgear I know. This is hard to see. Netgear has been one of the main companies to go to if you care about using your hardware. They have had a spirited MyOpenRouter community[1] for their systems, with great firmwares & flexibile package-add-ons developed with assistance from their solid-gold readily-reproduceable GPL releases[2]. I just had a somewhat overlong thread about Broadcom chipset routers having headed towards being impervious & useless, resistant to any experimentation, & bereft of open source firmwares[3], & a general trend in wifi of routers getting less & less general purpose & user-centric hardware, under increasingly consumeristic teiring[3]. While hardware alternatives vanish. This news doesn't mean Netgear is going to go totally darkside & cut off the amazing innovation they've let grow under them, but it sure is frightening that it could be part of that wider scary course into darkness & ignorance that wifi seems to be heading down. Own the means of production. Own the means of communication. Do not stop short, do not accept less. [1] https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum https://www.myopenrouter.com/forum [2] https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Programmers-GPL https://kb.netgear.com/2649/NETGEAR-Open-Source-Code-for-Pro... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24521265 Edit: hopefully much ado about nothing; seems this change only applies to their cloud ️ services > It appears the registration is only required for "cloud" features managed through Netgear's subscription service. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24530009

d3nj4l 6y ago
From the article: > product registration is required to unlock full access to the local browser UI. Emphasis mine.

usr1106 6y ago

Is that device sold in the EU? What about GDPR? Well, it seems to be a switch and private households are less likely to run a switch. But still some people might. So will the device still work after you ask them to delete your data? For a company on the other hand you might want to have secure systems not connected to the Internet at any time.

duxup 6y ago

My new clothes washer has an app. It requires access to location, and phone settings or the app closes by design. I don't think this stuff stops without legislation.

chrisbolt 6y ago
What brand? So I know what to avoid in the future.
- duxup 6y ago
  LG
  - brewdad 6y ago
    That's really disappointing as LG has been my go to brand for many of my appliance purchases including a washer and dryer a few years ago.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - woadwarrior01 6y ago
    It's the same with LG TVs. The remote app on iOS for my 2018 LG OLED TV does not launch without granting it location access. I don't understand why a TV remote app would ever need location access?
    - Ayesh 6y ago
      Yesterday, the app refused to even start up until I updated it to the latest version.
    - m463 6y ago
      I thought apple didn't allow that.
    - pcdoodle 6y ago

shock 6y ago

I recently bought a couple of Netgear Managed Switches (for Business)⁰ and in their datasheet they list "Local-only management" as a feature. Only after they arrived we discovered that you only get limited functionality in the Local-only management mode, you have to register the switches to your Netgear Cloud account to get access to the full functionality. Reading up on it, this was achieved only after a community outcry because in the prior firmware versions the switch would have to connect to the Netgear Cloud on every bootup. Needless to say I would not have bought the swiches if I had knew I needed to register them to Netgear Cloud to have access to the full functionality specified in the data sheet. If I had bought them as a consumer, not as a business, I would have returned them immediately. Netgear are now on our purchasing blacklist. ⓪ - the switches are Netgear GS-108Tv3

jchw 6y ago
I ran into a similar issue with a Linksys consumer router. Needless to say, that was back in the box and to the retailer in a new york minute. I ended up going with Ubiquiti equipment for now, since it was available locally. Much more expensive and complicated but Linksys convinced me it was worth any cost to get the hell away from them. But I will definitely be looking into the Turris Omnia, pfSense devices, and maybe even reusing my current Ubiquiti AP with OpenWRT, next time I need to muck with networking.
- ksec 6y ago
  Which is why I really really want Apple to come back to the Router Market. I miss my Airport Extreme.
  - dunham 6y ago
    I’ve still got mine. I should replace it with something newer, but I’m not sure what, if anything, is safe and secure.
    - ksec 6y ago
      That was how I replaced mine, I wanted something new to play around with. Turns out it wasn't much fun...... For now I will wait for WiFi 6E from Ubnt.

ethanwillis 6y ago

I was gonna buy a new DOCSIS 3.1 netgear modem for my gigabit service. Guess I won't be doing that now. I'm tired of this type of bullshit. It's exactly why I'm leaning really heavily towards Mikrotik for all of my networking gear at home. These types of devices are user hostile, bad for the environment, and set a precedent for a type of world we shouldn't want to live in.

KitDuncan 6y ago
I am also in the market for a docsis 3.1 modem. What are you going for?
- ethanwillis 6y ago
  Well, I'm running a SB6190 right now. I guess I'm going to go with either an SB8200 or a motorolla MB8600. One thing I like about the SB8200 is that if I ever go back to running a "business" connection at home I can have a second IP assigned to the second WAN port it has. I also plan on modifying the modem to fit into my network rack without a shelf like so: https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/ft579e/finally_got_fed_up_with_my_cable_modem_being/ https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/ft579e/finally_got... So the actual internal matter a little bit to me as well.
  - banana_giraffe 6y ago
    Be aware the SB8200 runs a Puma chipset. For all I know modern versions of this chipset on modems are OK now, but I have a headache that will probably never going away trying to work around latency and DOS issues with one of these in a situation where I couldn't change out the DOCSIS modem for reasons that were out of my control. It's in my "never touch again for any reason" bucket now as a result.
    - p1mrx 6y ago
      Incorrect, the SB8200 has a Broadcom BCM3390: http://en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Arris_SB8200 http://en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Arris_SB8200

Pxtl 6y ago

I had a Nighthawk router of some persuasion that was so infuriatingly buggy it took years off my life. A bad router is so maddening that the curse "may your brakes work as well as your firmware" repeatedly came to mind. Never again.

bserge 6y ago
Only buy something that works with OpenWRT. Or at least has hardware that is compatible so you can make your own build or have someone else do it. And contribute to the project, if you can. I'm still on a now ancient TP-Link router, it works absolutely flawlessly with all the features one might need. I know newer routers can be faster on stock firmware because of proprietary stuff, but fuck that, if I need Gigabit, I'll use wires. WiFi N speeds are good enough for me.
MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
Which one? My R7000 works perfectly fine, since years.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  That's the exact one, actually. It would constantly go into a sort of "soft crash" mode where it would continue to run as a wifi router but with more dropped packets and the web interface was inaccessible. It was a nightmare. I assume I just got a dud, but what a dud. It was such a gradual downward slide into being unusable that it was beyond warranty when I finally figured out it was unsalvageable.
  - MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
    The worst kind of failure mode, hope you lit it on fire or something.

SMAAART 6y ago

in related news Cottonelle and Quilted Northern now require registration before use. Charmin declined to comment.

pineyboi 6y ago

Razer has done something similar with their peripherals. I remember buying a Razer keyboard that I later realized required an online account and some Synapse software to configure in any meaningful way. Quickest return I ever made. Razer's privacy policy is dicey and then there's this[0] which inspires loads of confidence. [0]: https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-customer-data-via-leaky-server https://www.pcmag.com/news/razer-accidentally-exposed-custom...

manigandham 6y ago
Razer Synapse has removed that requirement now, you can use local guest account without registering.
- distances 6y ago
  Such a relief really to use Linux, the hardware just works out of the box. Or in theory could also be it doesn't work at all since there won't be downloadable drivers, but in practice all my peripherals have worked great.
  - resfirestar 6y ago
    If you didn’t know, there are open source drivers for many Razer peripherals that let you control things like colors and macros: https://openrazer.github.io/ https://openrazer.github.io/
- encom 6y ago
  The Synapse software is absolute trash. I've used Logitech mice since forever, but their quality has taken a nose dive, so I bought a Razor Deathadder. Because everyone markets their products towards 13 year-olds, it's called "Deathadder" and it's stuffed full of RGB LEDs. To disable the LEDs, you must install the Synapse software which is Electron trash, because nobody writes real software any more. And you have to KEEP this software installed, to keep the LEDs off. If you uninstall it, the LEDs come right back on. So I did what anyone would do: I took a screwdriver and a sidecutter, ripped out the leds and threw them in the trash.

hinkley 6y ago

When I first encountered netgear hardware, it ran far hotter than any other equipment. When I had a five port switch that was so hot I could nearly burn myself touching it, I stopped buying their gear. Are they still the laggard in this respect, or have they gotten better?

anfilt 6y ago

This is insanity. Stuff like this just seems to get worse every year smh.

nuker 6y ago

I'd recommend OPNSense and miniPC with a few LAN ports from aliexpress for both, home and SME.

zakki 6y ago

Why no backlash for iOS and Android? We have to register to use the devices.

unnameduser1 6y ago
You dont have to register for ios and android. For sure not with you real data. Anonymous email suffices. And you do get services by both platforms for free included in your purchase. Push notifications, automatic updates, free messaging and not to speak about tons of free apps to use.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
I don't think that is correct. What sort of registration are you thinking of?
m463 6y ago
I believe you no longer have to register your ios device - but it is a dark pattern. On the screen to enter your apple id, you don't have a "skip" choice, you have to say "don't have one" and I believe then you can skip setting up an apple id. You can use it like a phone at that point - you can send text messages and make calls, but I don't believe you can install any apps. That said - you must go online - turn on cellular data or wifi before you can use the phone, it must be "activated". And apple phones home a lot.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  And apple phones home a lot. I see this sort of claim often, but reliable information about the specifics is hard to come by. Can you share any?
  - m463 6y ago
    On a mac run little snitch. On a current ios iphone, I'm uncertain but i run an older version of ios with adblockios. It contacts a whole slew of apple and 3rd party sites. the main one is that it contacts *.ls.apple.com all the time (location services) even with location services turned off. lots of other apple sites. third party is akamai all the time, but also sites like phicdn.net and att.net (I have an at&t iphone). I do not have any at&t app installed. on macos catalina, you can (currently still) run little snitch and all kinds of services start contacting apple. and new ones have shown up like touristd and rapportd. Every time you try to pull up a help page. Every account you configure, apple based or not. sigh.

cyansmoker 6y ago

LOL @bug fixes: "Default IP route configuration disappears after reset" Literally the device's bread and butter and it fails that. Not sure I care about its management interface after reading that.

yaris 6y ago

I wonder what could serve as the replacement for Netgear switches. I have a couple GS108s at home and thought to buy a couple more. After such news I don’t want to even come close to NG, but from possible alternatives I’m familiar only with Linksys which are not an option really. What are other brands to consider?

iforgotpassword 6y ago
I've got a managed Zyxel switch at home. Not exactly a challenging setup, 4 vlans and that's it, but apart from a known firmware bug with multicast when I first bought it, with an update already available, there have been no issues at all. Would buy again.

lilSebastian 6y ago

In the market for a new home router. Keen to avoid such stupidity. Can anyone recommend a modern, powerful router that supports dd/openwrt?

vimalbhalodia 6y ago
GL.inet is a brand I've been a fan of for a while: https://www.gl-inet.com/ https://www.gl-inet.com/ They have a range of personal/SOHO routers that all run officially-supported-by-manufacturer OpenWRT, and their own UI skin isn't bad (though easy to switch to LuCI if you want) Reading through their support forums is what sold me on them - their firmware engineers actually pay attention to issues, engage in threads, and respond with patched firmwares.
- internalfx 6y ago
  This looks like the manufacturer I've been looking for, bookmarked for future purchases.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

the_biot 6y ago

That switch is based on a Realtek RTL838x/RTL839x SoC. An effort is currently underway to properly support these in openWRT and the mainline Linux kernel. First patch in OpenWRT is in: https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df8e6be59a1fbce3f8c6878fe7440a129b1245d6 https://git.openwrt.org/?p=openwrt/openwrt.git;a=commit;h=df... These SoCs are used in a lot of consumer-level switches, so it's a target-rich environment! We're populating a wiki to keep track of it all, feel free to join in if you can help: https://biot.com/switches/ https://biot.com/switches/

aojdwhsd 6y ago
Nice! This is exciting as I own an early GS110TPv3. Would a very early firmware image help you in any with this effort (v1.0.0.4)? My switch is booted into a more recent firmware version now (7.x.x.x) but if I recall, the cloud features were not present in 1.0.0.4.
- the_biot 6y ago
  Not really, the firmware is what we aim to replace. But if you want your device supported, you can pitch in. Post description/pics in the wiki, help test code, etc.

ThomasMidgley 6y ago

This mentioned product is marked as "GC108P — Insight Managed 8-port Gigabit Ethernet PoE+ Smart Cloud Switch with FlexPoE Power". So, what is the problem? You got, what you payed for. ;-) If you want to have a product with local management, then buy another one without "Insight" capabilities, e.g. one of the "Standalone Smart managed Pro" line: https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/standalone-smart-switch.aspx#tab-models https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/sta...

Supersaiyan_IV 6y ago

Netgear doesn't even care that the "ReadySHARE" almost all their routers are marketed with, is broken: https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/ReadySHARE-User-Credentials/idi-p/1855163 https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/Read... Why would I ever want to enable SMB 1.0 (security issues, deprecated) on my R8000. And even then, shares require admin credentials. IMO this is refund material.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> IMO this is refund material. It's also the kind of thing EU regulators pick up on.

supernova87a 6y ago

Maybe if the US wants to get serious (or at least effective) about security, we need ridiculousness like this to be regulated/outlawed.

barbs 6y ago

Can anyone recommend a good router that's good for putting openWRT on and isn't so user-hostile?

60Vhipx7b4JL 6y ago

I'm an embedded systems student and this makes me sad and angry. I worked with software update mechanisms and they are an essential part of every IoT product. They are needed to supply the product with security updates and consumers should be trained to allow for automatic updates as maintaining 20 devices is not something your average user will do manually. Or at least to install updates when they come along. This just fucks the consumer as it includes a massive inconvenience. What's going to happen? They won't install the update as they don't want shit forced down their throat. But the bad taste stays, and instead of installing a risky update on other devices or investing the time researching, the consumers will just keep them at the current software state. Thanks Netgear for fucking a whole industry.

aojdwhsd 6y ago

I can upload the firmware image v1.0.0.4 from my GS110TPv3 dated 2018-10-04 if anyone is interested... I don't think the cloud features were enabled on this one.

shock 6y ago
Yes, please.

joe33433 6y ago

Just flash openwrt.org and its amazing

Sosowski 6y ago

Recently I found an old TP-Link wall-plug WiFi extender which defaults to a .com domain name for configuration. All is fine when you don't have internet access, but once you configured it, you'll find out that TP-Link lost access to the config-bound domain and now it's a website full of malware and the config keeps redirecting you there. And they're still selling these (hopefully with updated firmware)

robotnikman 6y ago
wow, thats kinda horrifying. I wonder how they even let that slip