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> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total

> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total sensory deprivation—carried out in the presence of state officials of Macedonia and within its jurisdiction.” > Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation, the aim being to cause Mr. Masri severe pain and suffering in order to obtain information,” the ECHR additionally found. > (...) > “The U.S. diplomatic cables revealed the extent of pressure brought upon the German authorities (and in parallel, relevant Spanish authorities) not to act upon the clear evidence of criminal acts by the USA even though by then exposed,” Goetz added. Then some Americans are confused that many in the western world don't like American influence. I find it outrageous that these things happen, and I wouldn't want my government to consider such a country an ally.

yodsanklai 6y ago
I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
- tda 6y ago
  I know these is controversial, but this is what I personally think: (and even though a lot of this continued during Obama) Every American that voted for Bush' second term is partly responsible. It is evidently clear where the most political pressure to act like this has come from. Don't forget the NSADP was democratically elected. Every vote for the GOP is one to further legitimise these practices, and every voter is personally responsible for the way your country has headed as the writing was clearly on the wall. Just as ever member of the NSDAP has some responsibility for the holocaust, it should have been very clear to anyone paying attention that that party had some pretty extreme and objectionable view
  - lionkor 6y ago
    German here - I absolutely agree. I think the way Hitler rose to power is such an important piece of history. Nazi germany wasnt the first country to act like that. They didnt invent torture or mass killings, genocide, etc. It had happened before, everyone knew it, everyone knew that it can happen. And yet they voted blindly and thought "ah, well, it wont happen here". And low and behold, a few years later it does. I cannot feel sorry for people who vote out of habit and are then surprised that the government they voted for doesn't do what they silently hoped for.
    - pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
      Another German here. I also agree. However, it’s “lo and behold”. It’s basically a contraction of “look”.
    - torified 6y ago
      Look at what the US is already doing. Torture, secret "trials", spying, internment camps, zero judicial oversight. It's very dangerously close already, it's only a matter of time until those in power finally take the thin mask off. Won't the citizens be surprised! Fox news never warned us of this!
- lionkor 6y ago
  I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever you think is best. But don't ever vote out of habit.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete policy and substance issues aren't all that far apart. - Neither side supports socialized medicine. - Neither side supports free or cheap college or doing anything about student debt. - Neither side supports decriminalization or legalization of narcotics. - Neither side is interested in reducing defense spending. - Neither side is interested in immigration reform (as evidenced by the Obama administration having, for a long time, controlled both houses and the presidency and changing literally nothing). - Neither side is interested in reforming the intelligence services or closing GITMO -- remember that? - Neither side is interested in prison reform or policing reform. Police in America kill 10X as many people per capita as Canadian police kill. The only leader to actually implement any form of prison reform in decades was Donald Trump, credit where due. And that's likely only because he's not really a Democrat or a Republican. - Both sides persecuted and prosecuted Asange and Snowden. Really, what are the major points of policy differentiation? A 2% tax hike on the wealthy?
    - Sargos 6y ago
      Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.
  - pftf 6y ago
    Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocities. Voting isn't going to do shit.
    - pastage 6y ago
      No! Change is easy to get without violence. It's a myth that violence is more effective, ok maybe if you want someones lunch money.
      - ugexe 6y ago
        Are you going to offer any supporting evidence at least like the post you are rebuking? All of human history seems to suggest violence is the most available resource for achieving any sort of change.
    - saiya-jin 6y ago
      Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means. This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.
      - aronpye 6y ago
        Yeah, try Googling Swiss Nazi gold before advocating Swiss governance as a model to uphold.
- tripzilch 6y ago
  Sorry who actually believes someone was sodomised for the greater good?!!
  - foxyv 6y ago
    You would be surprised. There is a strong vein of jingoism running through the US that wants to see this sort of stuff. They believe that, by being harsh against domestic and foreign enemies of the United States, we can assert our position of dominance on the world stage. Just check out bumper stickers on pickup trucks in Texas.
rtx 6y ago
Is there anything that EU can do about this. It's biggest economy is still a vassal state. Till you depend on America for protection you will have to play by their rules. What I believe Americans are confused about European reluctance to protect themselves. We recently saw Chinese threatening politician from Checz republic. Other European nations still welcomed the group.
- licebmi__at__ 6y ago
  You might want to read about operation Gladio and the extent of activities. The pretense of defending Europe is apparently good enough to even run a secret military group, while also making sure no US unfriendly group takes power.
  - rtx 6y ago
    Thanks for the reference, absolutely wild. Though I have no doubt why US is doing it.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I personally feel that America SHOULD pull influence/military completely out of Europe as they are well recovered from WW2 and should now be able to afford to have full militaries to handle any bullies in the region. We should stop all our foreign wars and are more or less doing that under Obama and now Trump. Let the Europeans deal with the Middle East since it is their backyard and not ours. I do think we should keep influence in East Asia though provided that Japan, Taiwan, Korea would like us to stick around. That's a sane foreign policy. I'm sure the Europeans will be angels in maintaining their political sovereignty.
- doublesCs 6y ago
  > Let the Europeans deal with the Middle East since it is their backyard and not ours. You have to admit there's two sides to that, though. The fact that the EU doesn't _have_ to defend itself reduces the incentive to do so. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to learn that the USA (pre-Trump) lobbies EU countries to keep their defense budget low, as that maintains dependence of EU on the USA. But I 100% agree with you. Pull USA influence out of Europe - that's the best way to force Europe to take its self-defense seriously.

yodsanklai 6y ago

I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good. And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on. There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.

tda 6y ago
I know these is controversial, but this is what I personally think: (and even though a lot of this continued during Obama) Every American that voted for Bush' second term is partly responsible. It is evidently clear where the most political pressure to act like this has come from. Don't forget the NSADP was democratically elected. Every vote for the GOP is one to further legitimise these practices, and every voter is personally responsible for the way your country has headed as the writing was clearly on the wall. Just as ever member of the NSDAP has some responsibility for the holocaust, it should have been very clear to anyone paying attention that that party had some pretty extreme and objectionable view
- lionkor 6y ago
  German here - I absolutely agree. I think the way Hitler rose to power is such an important piece of history. Nazi germany wasnt the first country to act like that. They didnt invent torture or mass killings, genocide, etc. It had happened before, everyone knew it, everyone knew that it can happen. And yet they voted blindly and thought "ah, well, it wont happen here". And low and behold, a few years later it does. I cannot feel sorry for people who vote out of habit and are then surprised that the government they voted for doesn't do what they silently hoped for.
  - pwdisswordfish0 6y ago
    Another German here. I also agree. However, it’s “lo and behold”. It’s basically a contraction of “look”.
  - torified 6y ago
    Look at what the US is already doing. Torture, secret "trials", spying, internment camps, zero judicial oversight. It's very dangerously close already, it's only a matter of time until those in power finally take the thin mask off. Won't the citizens be surprised! Fox news never warned us of this!
lionkor 6y ago
I agree with what you said, yet can't help but think that everyone who knows about this kind of thing and still doesn't think twice about which party to vote for, is responsible in some way. Every american is given a voice, to vote for the best party, the best candidate, based on what they know and believe. Voting is anonymous. You dont have to tell anyone what you voted for. Vote for a third party, or for whatever you think is best. But don't ever vote out of habit.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  John Adams and George Washington believed a two-party state was a major threat to democracy, and it's pretty easy to see why. The reality is Democrats and Republicans are about 6 inches apart on every single major issue. Compare the platforms of the "left" and "right" here to other major democracies worldwide, and you'll see. Things are a little different with the current administration, but even that, the concrete policy and substance issues aren't all that far apart. - Neither side supports socialized medicine. - Neither side supports free or cheap college or doing anything about student debt. - Neither side supports decriminalization or legalization of narcotics. - Neither side is interested in reducing defense spending. - Neither side is interested in immigration reform (as evidenced by the Obama administration having, for a long time, controlled both houses and the presidency and changing literally nothing). - Neither side is interested in reforming the intelligence services or closing GITMO -- remember that? - Neither side is interested in prison reform or policing reform. Police in America kill 10X as many people per capita as Canadian police kill. The only leader to actually implement any form of prison reform in decades was Donald Trump, credit where due. And that's likely only because he's not really a Democrat or a Republican. - Both sides persecuted and prosecuted Asange and Snowden. Really, what are the major points of policy differentiation? A 2% tax hike on the wealthy?
  - Sargos 6y ago
    Until our governmental system is overhauled to allow for more democracy and less powerful individuals then the citizens really don't bare much responsibility for the actions of our masters. I live in a gerrymandered district with no real way to vote for my preferences and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon.
sandworm101 6y ago
Thats the problem with democracy: the people own the mistakes of those they elect. Dont like what they do? Vote them out of office. Arrest them. Jail them. If the system fails, fix the system.
- pftf 6y ago
  Voting doesn't work for the most important issues, where human rights are being severely violated. It took a civil war for the end of slavery to begin in the US. It took decades of terrorism for the Irish to stop being as subjugated by the British in Northern Ireland. And so on. History indicates that what you really need in the US right now is some violent, direct action against those committing human rights atrocities. Voting isn't going to do shit.
  - pastage 6y ago
    No! Change is easy to get without violence. It's a myth that violence is more effective, ok maybe if you want someones lunch money.
    - ugexe 6y ago
      Are you going to offer any supporting evidence at least like the post you are rebuking? All of human history seems to suggest violence is the most available resource for achieving any sort of change.
  - saiya-jin 6y ago
    Take an inspiration from countries that get proper democracy right - like Switzerland. You can have public vote on anything, just gather enough signatures and it will happen. Result will be binding to government, whatever it means. This of course relies on population to be at least slightly smart and not dumb herd of easy to manipulate sheeps, but that's a basic premise of democracy in general.
    - aronpye 6y ago
      Yeah, try Googling Swiss Nazi gold before advocating Swiss governance as a model to uphold.
tripzilch 6y ago
Sorry who actually believes someone was sodomised for the greater good?!!
- foxyv 6y ago
  You would be surprised. There is a strong vein of jingoism running through the US that wants to see this sort of stuff. They believe that, by being harsh against domestic and foreign enemies of the United States, we can assert our position of dominance on the world stage. Just check out bumper stickers on pickup trucks in Texas.

rtx 6y ago

Is there anything that EU can do about this. It's biggest economy is still a vassal state. Till you depend on America for protection you will have to play by their rules. What I believe Americans are confused about European reluctance to protect themselves. We recently saw Chinese threatening politician from Checz republic. Other European nations still welcomed the group.

licebmi__at__ 6y ago
You might want to read about operation Gladio and the extent of activities. The pretense of defending Europe is apparently good enough to even run a secret military group, while also making sure no US unfriendly group takes power.
- rtx 6y ago
  Thanks for the reference, absolutely wild. Though I have no doubt why US is doing it.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I personally feel that America SHOULD pull influence/military completely out of Europe as they are well recovered from WW2 and should now be able to afford to have full militaries to handle any bullies in the region. We should stop all our foreign wars and are more or less doing that under Obama and now Trump. Let the Europeans deal with the Middle East since it is their backyard and not ours. I do think we should keep influence in East Asia though provided that Japan, Taiwan, Korea would like us to stick around. That's a sane foreign policy. I'm sure the Europeans will be angels in maintaining their political sovereignty.

doublesCs 6y ago
> Let the Europeans deal with the Middle East since it is their backyard and not ours. You have to admit there's two sides to that, though. The fact that the EU doesn't _have_ to defend itself reduces the incentive to do so. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to learn that the USA (pre-Trump) lobbies EU countries to keep their defense budget low, as that maintains dependence of EU on the USA. But I 100% agree with you. Pull USA influence out of Europe - that's the best way to force Europe to take its self-defense seriously.