7 ms·

A death sentence for a young Chinese businesswoman chills entrepreneurs

171 points by kungfooey 15y ago

pan69 15y ago
China. So close, yet so far away.
- pan69 15y ago
  Off-topic: The new comment system where votes next to comment aren't shown anymore is quite interesting. Over the course of a day my comment received about 10 up-votes and now an equal amount of down-votes. My comment was the first to comment made on this post and in the first two hours or so my comment received all it's up-votes. Then, slowly over the next 24 hours it began to sink. I think the reason my comment received the down votes is because over time more elaborate comments where made that made my comment look more and more insignificant and out of place. Now I don't think my comment was great and deserved any up-votes what so ever, but it's interesting to see how not showing the votes next to a comment makes such a huge difference and I don't believe my comment would have been down-voted if the 10 up-votes would have been shown next to it.
protomyth 15y ago
Does this mean angel investing is illegal in China. I am not sure what "raising and pooling money outside the official system" really means.
- kungfooey 15y ago
  That's a good question. That seems like important context. What does the "official system" consist of, exactly, and why do so many entrepreneurs apparently raise funds outside of it?
  - ww520 15y ago
    Think of it as the wild west of financial system. People can skew the rules or laws by setting up saving and loan "banks" with promise of high return. Of course these are Ponzi scheme with the latecomers paying off the earlier ones, and eventually the "bank" collapses and the "entrepreneurs" simply disappear while many people lose their money. So many "entrepreneurs" raising funds outside of the rule and law because they can't satisfy the financial regulations that protect the lay investors. And financial scams are lucrative? She has "raised" hundreds of millions in this case. People losing the their life savings are furious. I'm sure in this case, these people have asked for her head. People who have had millions to start with are usually in the position of power, and they seem to get their wish this time.
- Joakal 15y ago
  There's more to the story since behind door trials occur when officials get involved. I believe it's more than that due to the wild speculation.
- ww520 15y ago
  Angel investing in US has the requirement of being Accredited Investors by law, so no you can't just angel investing willy nilly but follows the law (or "official system"). The comparable scale of punishment is another story; on the other hand a few people would wish Madoff was tried in a Chinese court for defaulting people.
  - will_critchlow 15y ago
    Really? Is there anything similar in the UK? I don't believe there is - but I generally tend to believe there is less red tape around entrepreneurial activities in the US than the UK (we run businesses in both places).
    - adamt 15y ago
      In the uk angel investment is only typically allowed by high net worth or sophisticates investors (definitions below). High Net Worth Investors have an income in excess of GBP 100,000 per annum and/or have net assets (excluding primary residence) in excess of GBP 250,000 Sophisticated Investors have made at least 2 investments in an unlisted company in the last 2 years have worked in the private equity sector or in the provision of finance for SMEs or have been in the last 2 years a director of a company with a turnover of at least GBP 1 million have been a member of an angel network or syndicate for the last 6 months
bilbo0s 15y ago
I don't know. 80% returns? Really? She was able to get 80% returns? GUARANTEED? This lady kind of sounds like a potential Madoff who got caught early. Yes, she may be totally innocent. That is one of many possibilities. Having mentioned that... man... 80%? guaranteed? Trading Futures? Maybe the punishment is a bit harsh, but it really does seem she was not totally on the up and up. And secondly, what kind of a person gives their money to someone promising 80% returns risk-free? Who did she raise this money from? I mean let's say you're listening to a financial services guy give a pitch over Evian and roasted sweet potatoes with cumin. Right. He says, "I'll get you 80% yearly on your money! Guaranteed! Risk-free!" Well at that point you and I probably look at each other, and just leave. Who would believe that?
- chc 15y ago
  "A bit harsh" is a lot of an understatement. They're talking about killing her.
  - SebMortelmans 15y ago
    +1, Cmon how can you kill someone for raising money, regardless of its whereabouts or accompanied false promises... "A bit harsh", my god, get a grip
    - daniel1980fl 15y ago
      Maidoff was rising money as well. Here he spent life in prision; in China they kill. I wish they penalties in US would be harsher. Death is too extreme, but this is China, overpopulated, I never lived there havent been raised so have no idea how their brains work. But the truth is, if penalties in US would be harsher, you wouldnt have 30yrs old pot smoker going to jail for 5 years for 2 joints, while Vacovia washing $700mil of worth cocaine on plane to US and got "penalized" $300mil and nobody goes to jail. Same with real estate bubble. People committed suicides after loosing houses, while Goldman was giving $100mil in bonuses. Wild Wild West in 2011!
  - Pinckney 15y ago
dengzhi 15y ago
in Chinese http://finance.21cn.com/shjj/2011/04/15/8240735.shtml http://finance.21cn.com/shjj/2011/04/15/8240735.shtml
gatsby 15y ago
This Economist article paints a very different picture from the article below: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12/18/content_9201582.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12/18/content_920158... Businesswoman gets death sentence for defrauding investors out of tens of millions of dollars vs. Businesswoman gets death sentence for fundraising
- tokenadult 15y ago
  Well, we know which of the two publications has prepublication review of content by the Communist Party of China.
  - Ygor 15y ago
    It raises a valid question: How to find reliable sources for stories such as this? Is it even possible, concerning the usual secrecy of similar processes?
    - cglee 15y ago
      Chinese forums, if you know where to look. But you have to learn to read Chinese, or find some one/way to translate.
      - PakG1 15y ago
        That raises a whole new problem though, which is distinguishing signal from noise, truth from fiction. That's hard, even in North America when some crazy rumour races through Twitter and the media starts reporting on it accidentally as true. It has happened a couple of times. :(
        cglee 15y ago
        You'll need to participate a lot and then you can start to get a sense on who to trust. Or at least who is sensationalistic, who's logical, etc.
      - 15y ago
cheez 15y ago
Hey guys, try and follow the laws of the country in which you live. Even if you think it's unjust, you can't change it if you're dead.
- dublinclontarf 15y ago
  What if the laws make criminals of ordinary, innocent things. This is pretty much the case in China(and many countries actually) its impossible to live without commiting some kind of crime. Thats how they get you.
  - cheez 15y ago
    This article (inspired by a book, I believe) is relevant: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870447150457443...
  - billswift 15y ago
    Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302971110&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/... Also read any of James Bovard's books; Lost Rights, Freedom in Chains, Feeling Your Pain, Terrorism and Tyranny, The Bush Betrayal, Attention Deficit Democracy, or Vin Suprynowicz books Send in the Waco Killers and Ballad of Carl Drega or his column on the Las Vegas Review-Journal, http://www.lvrj.com/columnists/Vin_Suprynowicz.html http://www.lvrj.com/columnists/Vin_Suprynowicz.html
- anonymoushn 15y ago
  Your odds of changing it do not decrease significantly when you die.
  - cheez 15y ago
    I'm of the opinion that you change more by talking with others. I guess if you become a martyr, it's different.
BasDirks 15y ago
Barbaria. Edit: I shouldn't attempt irony on the interwebz. Barbaria was said with a wink at history.
jrockway 15y ago
Wow, and just when I thought death for mass murderers was a bit too cruel...
PakG1 15y ago
Ultimately, she was convicted of “illegal fund-raising” for, the court concluded, raising 773m yuan from illicit sources. What does this MEAN, I wonder? Money laundering? Or?
rbanffy 15y ago
What strikes me as odd is that she pleaded guilty and helped broaden the investigations and still got a death penalty. This pretty much removes any incentive for a guilty plea and for helping an investigation. I think it's fairly reasonable to consider whether she is facing capital punishment for financial fraud or for having helped broaden the investigation in the wrong direction.
- GregBuchholz 15y ago
  >and still got a death penalty. The death penalty alone is better than execution of you and your kids, or better than torture and execution, etc..
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    I don't think those are options under the Chinese penal code.
    - GregBuchholz 15y ago
      I'd be surprised if there wasn't some form of prosecutetorial discression that couldn't overlook your children's involvment in your business dealings. Think of Madoff's kids.
aptsurdist 15y ago
This is horrifying and I don't even know where to start examining the problem. Firstly, how do we trust any news source on a case like this when the press is controlled by the accuser? Second, even if the sentence is 'legally correct,' when does the threat of a human rights violation become too important to ignore - should countries be pressured to abolish death sentences (at least) for non-violent crimes? Even if the death penalty is the 'official' punishment to fit the crime, certainly it's a big problem if the actual delivery of that sentence is relegated to a minority of cases in which the government is motivated to prosecute. Of course selective prosecution is a problem with any legal system, but when the sentence is death it is all the more important to monitor cases through a transparent system. It doesn't seem that this kind of transparency is in place. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/23/business/main6798205.shtml http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/23/business/main67982... see: "...the judicial system is overly secretive in deciding on death penalty cases." http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2014070,00.html http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2014070,00.htm... see: "...opaqueness of its legal system."
- aptsurdist 15y ago
  [@PG and the hacker news team: I think it's pretty important to see some indication of supporting votes on these comments. Please keep considering if you want to bring back that feature in some form. Thanks!]
lisperforlife 15y ago
Please correct me if I am wrong. Basically she is dying because she defrauded a bunch of rich dudes and created employment opportunities. The rich dudes are pissed and so she is now facing a death sentence? This is pretty screwed. Sending her to jail is one thing but death sentence. That is just idiotic.

171 points by kungfooey 15y ago

pan69 15y ago

China. So close, yet so far away.

pan69 15y ago
Off-topic: The new comment system where votes next to comment aren't shown anymore is quite interesting. Over the course of a day my comment received about 10 up-votes and now an equal amount of down-votes. My comment was the first to comment made on this post and in the first two hours or so my comment received all it's up-votes. Then, slowly over the next 24 hours it began to sink. I think the reason my comment received the down votes is because over time more elaborate comments where made that made my comment look more and more insignificant and out of place. Now I don't think my comment was great and deserved any up-votes what so ever, but it's interesting to see how not showing the votes next to a comment makes such a huge difference and I don't believe my comment would have been down-voted if the 10 up-votes would have been shown next to it.

protomyth 15y ago

Does this mean angel investing is illegal in China. I am not sure what "raising and pooling money outside the official system" really means.

kungfooey 15y ago
That's a good question. That seems like important context. What does the "official system" consist of, exactly, and why do so many entrepreneurs apparently raise funds outside of it?
- ww520 15y ago
  Think of it as the wild west of financial system. People can skew the rules or laws by setting up saving and loan "banks" with promise of high return. Of course these are Ponzi scheme with the latecomers paying off the earlier ones, and eventually the "bank" collapses and the "entrepreneurs" simply disappear while many people lose their money. So many "entrepreneurs" raising funds outside of the rule and law because they can't satisfy the financial regulations that protect the lay investors. And financial scams are lucrative? She has "raised" hundreds of millions in this case. People losing the their life savings are furious. I'm sure in this case, these people have asked for her head. People who have had millions to start with are usually in the position of power, and they seem to get their wish this time.
Joakal 15y ago
There's more to the story since behind door trials occur when officials get involved. I believe it's more than that due to the wild speculation.
ww520 15y ago
Angel investing in US has the requirement of being Accredited Investors by law, so no you can't just angel investing willy nilly but follows the law (or "official system"). The comparable scale of punishment is another story; on the other hand a few people would wish Madoff was tried in a Chinese court for defaulting people.
- will_critchlow 15y ago
  Really? Is there anything similar in the UK? I don't believe there is - but I generally tend to believe there is less red tape around entrepreneurial activities in the US than the UK (we run businesses in both places).
  - adamt 15y ago
    In the uk angel investment is only typically allowed by high net worth or sophisticates investors (definitions below). High Net Worth Investors have an income in excess of GBP 100,000 per annum and/or have net assets (excluding primary residence) in excess of GBP 250,000 Sophisticated Investors have made at least 2 investments in an unlisted company in the last 2 years have worked in the private equity sector or in the provision of finance for SMEs or have been in the last 2 years a director of a company with a turnover of at least GBP 1 million have been a member of an angel network or syndicate for the last 6 months

bilbo0s 15y ago

I don't know. 80% returns? Really? She was able to get 80% returns? GUARANTEED? This lady kind of sounds like a potential Madoff who got caught early. Yes, she may be totally innocent. That is one of many possibilities. Having mentioned that... man... 80%? guaranteed? Trading Futures? Maybe the punishment is a bit harsh, but it really does seem she was not totally on the up and up. And secondly, what kind of a person gives their money to someone promising 80% returns risk-free? Who did she raise this money from? I mean let's say you're listening to a financial services guy give a pitch over Evian and roasted sweet potatoes with cumin. Right. He says, "I'll get you 80% yearly on your money! Guaranteed! Risk-free!" Well at that point you and I probably look at each other, and just leave. Who would believe that?

chc 15y ago
"A bit harsh" is a lot of an understatement. They're talking about killing her.
- SebMortelmans 15y ago
  +1, Cmon how can you kill someone for raising money, regardless of its whereabouts or accompanied false promises... "A bit harsh", my god, get a grip
  - daniel1980fl 15y ago
    Maidoff was rising money as well. Here he spent life in prision; in China they kill. I wish they penalties in US would be harsher. Death is too extreme, but this is China, overpopulated, I never lived there havent been raised so have no idea how their brains work. But the truth is, if penalties in US would be harsher, you wouldnt have 30yrs old pot smoker going to jail for 5 years for 2 joints, while Vacovia washing $700mil of worth cocaine on plane to US and got "penalized" $300mil and nobody goes to jail. Same with real estate bubble. People committed suicides after loosing houses, while Goldman was giving $100mil in bonuses. Wild Wild West in 2011!
- Pinckney 15y ago

dengzhi 15y ago

in Chinese http://finance.21cn.com/shjj/2011/04/15/8240735.shtml http://finance.21cn.com/shjj/2011/04/15/8240735.shtml

gatsby 15y ago

This Economist article paints a very different picture from the article below: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12/18/content_9201582.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12/18/content_920158... Businesswoman gets death sentence for defrauding investors out of tens of millions of dollars vs. Businesswoman gets death sentence for fundraising

tokenadult 15y ago
Well, we know which of the two publications has prepublication review of content by the Communist Party of China.
- Ygor 15y ago
  It raises a valid question: How to find reliable sources for stories such as this? Is it even possible, concerning the usual secrecy of similar processes?
  - cglee 15y ago
    Chinese forums, if you know where to look. But you have to learn to read Chinese, or find some one/way to translate.
    - PakG1 15y ago
      That raises a whole new problem though, which is distinguishing signal from noise, truth from fiction. That's hard, even in North America when some crazy rumour races through Twitter and the media starts reporting on it accidentally as true. It has happened a couple of times. :(
      - cglee 15y ago
        You'll need to participate a lot and then you can start to get a sense on who to trust. Or at least who is sensationalistic, who's logical, etc.
    - 15y ago

cheez 15y ago

Hey guys, try and follow the laws of the country in which you live. Even if you think it's unjust, you can't change it if you're dead.

dublinclontarf 15y ago
What if the laws make criminals of ordinary, innocent things. This is pretty much the case in China(and many countries actually) its impossible to live without commiting some kind of crime. Thats how they get you.
- cheez 15y ago
  This article (inspired by a book, I believe) is relevant: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870447150457443...
- billswift 15y ago
  Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302971110&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/... Also read any of James Bovard's books; Lost Rights, Freedom in Chains, Feeling Your Pain, Terrorism and Tyranny, The Bush Betrayal, Attention Deficit Democracy, or Vin Suprynowicz books Send in the Waco Killers and Ballad of Carl Drega or his column on the Las Vegas Review-Journal, http://www.lvrj.com/columnists/Vin_Suprynowicz.html http://www.lvrj.com/columnists/Vin_Suprynowicz.html
anonymoushn 15y ago
Your odds of changing it do not decrease significantly when you die.
- cheez 15y ago
  I'm of the opinion that you change more by talking with others. I guess if you become a martyr, it's different.

BasDirks 15y ago

Barbaria. Edit: I shouldn't attempt irony on the interwebz. Barbaria was said with a wink at history.

jrockway 15y ago

Wow, and just when I thought death for mass murderers was a bit too cruel...

PakG1 15y ago

Ultimately, she was convicted of “illegal fund-raising” for, the court concluded, raising 773m yuan from illicit sources. What does this MEAN, I wonder? Money laundering? Or?

rbanffy 15y ago

What strikes me as odd is that she pleaded guilty and helped broaden the investigations and still got a death penalty. This pretty much removes any incentive for a guilty plea and for helping an investigation. I think it's fairly reasonable to consider whether she is facing capital punishment for financial fraud or for having helped broaden the investigation in the wrong direction.

GregBuchholz 15y ago
>and still got a death penalty. The death penalty alone is better than execution of you and your kids, or better than torture and execution, etc..
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I don't think those are options under the Chinese penal code.
  - GregBuchholz 15y ago
    I'd be surprised if there wasn't some form of prosecutetorial discression that couldn't overlook your children's involvment in your business dealings. Think of Madoff's kids.

aptsurdist 15y ago

This is horrifying and I don't even know where to start examining the problem. Firstly, how do we trust any news source on a case like this when the press is controlled by the accuser? Second, even if the sentence is 'legally correct,' when does the threat of a human rights violation become too important to ignore - should countries be pressured to abolish death sentences (at least) for non-violent crimes? Even if the death penalty is the 'official' punishment to fit the crime, certainly it's a big problem if the actual delivery of that sentence is relegated to a minority of cases in which the government is motivated to prosecute. Of course selective prosecution is a problem with any legal system, but when the sentence is death it is all the more important to monitor cases through a transparent system. It doesn't seem that this kind of transparency is in place. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/23/business/main6798205.shtml http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/23/business/main67982... see: "...the judicial system is overly secretive in deciding on death penalty cases." http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2014070,00.html http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2014070,00.htm... see: "...opaqueness of its legal system."

aptsurdist 15y ago
[@PG and the hacker news team: I think it's pretty important to see some indication of supporting votes on these comments. Please keep considering if you want to bring back that feature in some form. Thanks!]

lisperforlife 15y ago

Please correct me if I am wrong. Basically she is dying because she defrauded a bunch of rich dudes and created employment opportunities. The rich dudes are pissed and so she is now facing a death sentence? This is pretty screwed. Sending her to jail is one thing but death sentence. That is just idiotic.