10 ms·

Does anyone think this plan actually works for the US Government?

duxup 6y ago
Depends on what you mean, there are a lot of ways to look at this. If somehow they do get the apps banned from app stores... I suspect that would constitute a fairly large chunk of the US cut off from tiktok. On the other hand if you look at it from the POTUS's POV where just saying your doing stuff means you can claim victory... he might feel he already won.
- bmitc 6y ago
  There is only one way to look at this, and that’s what it is. It’s the president and his administration searching for any route to re-election and thus abusing any power he has towards that goal. It could also be collusion in which Trump is trying to personally profit or have supporters profit. The security angle is theater. Many American corporations gather and abuse much more data than any allegations against TikTok and WeChat. And if people are really worried about foreign monitoring, then there are millions of cameras and microphones embedded in baby monitors, pet feeders, home security cameras, and other smart devices, all foreign made and networked. Some claims of influence could be made in TikTok, but there’s literally nothing stopping that from happening on platforms owned by U.S. companies, where it’s been proven to have happened and is still currently happening. So that argument doesn’t apply. If it does apply, it applies to a much broader app landscape than just TikTok and WeChat. So in the end, everyone debating this thing as if it is an actual intelligent thing to be discussed is just adding legitimacy to Trump grasping for re-election and another one of his chaotic moves. There are actual problems but those are only plastered onto this whole deal by externals. The president literally tried to treat this thing as if it was an episode of The Apprentice, demanding payment from the sale. It’s ludicrous. This is exactly what Adam Curtis means by Hypernormalization.
  - Temasik 6y ago
    >gain 100 points on ccp's credit score
  - asquabventured 6y ago
    How exactly does this move help him win reelection? I'm genuinely curious, I just don't see how this action would move anyone into a Trump vote who was previously not already planning to vote Trump.
    - bmitc 6y ago
      No one said it is an intelligent move. Just because it is a move doesn’t necessarily make it a good one. Trump is, hopefully, grasping for straws. He has tried to use the virus and now trade to tie into hate brooding in the country and use anti-Chinese sentiment to his advantage. Trump has specifically attacked Biden as being soft on China. It’s all a ploy, just like his shenanigans on the U.S. treasury being sent a cut of the sale of TikTok. The fact that there are legitimate issues external but related to Trump’s actions and proclamations does not legitimize them. I think it’s dangerous because people are underestimating just how hateful a lot of the U.S. is against foreigners and how whatever Trump is anti at the moment spreads like wildfire. Americans in general do not understand China or even how similar our government can be, and so it is easy to rally people against it.
  - adventured 6y ago
    > Many American corporations gather and abuse much more data than any allegations against TikTok and WeChat. You're inventing a false premise with that setup. The issue with TikTok isn't primarily data collection unto itself. It's that they're owned by China (ie who is doing the data collecting), and without exception all large corporations in China are directly commanded by the CCP. They have CCP committees that 'advise' the boards and outline what the companies may or may not do at all times; primarily focused on major decisions, sensitive matters for the CCP, or matters of national strategy. The only reason ByteDance isn't selling TikTok for example, is because the CCP said they weren't allowed to because it would make China look weak; that's not a decision that is up to ByteDance, because they're not in control of anything ultimately. In China's dictatorship, all power by default rests with the CCP (and increasingly with future Chairman Xi's new cult of personality, as the purges have begun); that approach means they can do anything at any time for any reason. They even started hijacking boards in Hong Kong back in 2016: WSJ 2017: "Since 2016, at least 32 Chinese state-owned companies or units listed in Hong Kong have proposed changes to their corporate structures to install Communist Party committees that advise their boards of directors." [1] China isn't an ally of the US, they're a blend of enemy and super competitor. They don't freely allow US companies - such as Facebook, Google, Reddit, Twitter, Snapchat, Pinterest, Amazon AWS, and dozens of others - to operate inside of China. It's entirely reasonable to disallow some China-owned corporations from operating in the US as a matter of trade reciprocation. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/now-advising-chinas-state-firms-the-communist-party-1502703005 https://www.wsj.com/articles/now-advising-chinas-state-firms...
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      > The only reason ByteDance isn't selling TikTok for example, is because the CCP said they weren't allowed to because it would make China look weak; that's not a decision that is up to ByteDance, because they're not in control of anything ultimately. It's not because the "CCP" said they weren't allowed to. It's because the government of the People's Republic of China issued a new policy against exporting sensitive technology. The government obviously had ByteDance in mind, but this was a government policy issued in the normal way, not anything to do with Communist Party committees advising corporate boards. It's a response by the Chinese government to a measure taken by the American government against a Chinese company. > They don't freely allow US companies [...] to operate inside of China. A great many US companies freely operate inside China - many more than vice versa. China's economic development was largely driven by the "Reform and Opening-Up Policy." As the name suggests, a major part of that policy was allowing foreign companies to invest in China. Foreign companies did invest massively in China, gaining market access and taking advantage of Chinese labor. If you walk around any major Chinese city nowadays, you'll see the result: foreign companies are everywhere. Volkswagens, Hondas and Toyotas fill the streets. There's a Starbucks, McDonald's or KFC on every other corner. Everyone walks around with smartphones filled with American electronics. Chinese airlines fly fleets of Boeing and Airbus planes. The computers all run Windows or OS X. The idea that US companies can't operate in China is just very far from the reality, which is that US companies have a massive presence in China.
sg47 6y ago
Trump is somehow trying to make money out of this. He has repeatedly said money needs to be paid to the US Govt. By US Govt, given his corruption record, we'll have to assume it means him or his family.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  He has been able to pay quite a lot of money to his own pocket via his hotels and such, but I'm not sure whether they'd be that blatant.
  - pavlov 6y ago
    Oracle seems to be getting a sweetheart deal from the government here, and Larry Ellison has donated substantial amounts to Trump's campaign. Maybe that's not outright corruption, but it would raise eyebrows in any Western democracy.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bigpumpkin 6y ago
The US government will try to reduce Chinese ownership in Tiktok. Bytedance will try to resist fire sales. What's the best compromise? Have an IPO in the US and have a lot of US investors in the deal, diluting Bytedance.
- dylan604 6y ago
  What if the the IPO happens but a single large/majority chunk of stock ends up being Chinese investors?
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    That's business for ya. POTUS doesn't really care about anything other than optics. Claim the win, move on. We live in a post-fact world now.
mhh__ 6y ago
If this is their secret weapon for the election then it's not a very good one. If we make a simple division of the population into 4 groups, we'll have 1. People who are ambivalent i.e. don't care or aren't familiar with the app 2. People who are strongly against it for a variety of reasons 3. People who are in favour because it's a blow scored against the Chinese 4. People who are in favour due to their feelings about the app specifically It seems likely to me that the second grouping will be the largest. I don't think much will come of it but it will take much, much more than this to neuter China. It's not quite as vacuous "Build the wall" but it's not far off - if you want to battle china economically, get trading with their competitors (i.e. vote for centrists - Bernie is almost as protectionist as Trump)
- sterlind 6y ago
  I'm concerned about China's policy of heavy-handed protectionism and censorship internally while benefitting from global markets externally. But I don't like this tit-for-tat action by the US. Cutting off Tiktok will only further accelerate the balkanization of the internet. Keeping US companies from kataoing to the Chinese regime with special concessions (e.g. Dragonfly) and making services too important to easily firewall off (e.g. GitHub) seems like a better strategy. At least I hope so.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    > I'm concerned about China's policy of heavy-handed protectionism and censorship internally while benefitting from global markets externally. Foreign companies benefited enormously from the opening up of the Chinese market, and China is not nearly as protectionist as it's made out to be. Western media has trouble entering China because of political censorship, but Western businesses in general have very good market access. China is a very significant market for most major US tech companies.
    - philliphaydon 6y ago
      Western business do not have good market access. Just look at what’s happened with Disney. Spend years and years censoring movies and gaining favour of the CCP to get access to the market and a single movie ends up destroying their reputation overnight.
gscott 6y ago
Considering no one can get an app published in China from the US all Chinese founded apps should be banned until policy changes in China and US apps get approved.
mlindner 6y ago
Depends on whether they'll go through the full vetting process normally required for IPOing companies. Chinese companies have historically managed to refuse the vetting process when they're listed on US stock exchanges.

Depends on what you mean, there are a lot of ways to look at this. If somehow they do get the apps banned from app stores... I suspect that would constitute a fairly large chunk of the US cut off from tiktok. On the other hand if you look at it from the POTUS's POV where just saying your doing stuff means you can claim victory... he might feel he already won.

bmitc 6y ago
There is only one way to look at this, and that’s what it is. It’s the president and his administration searching for any route to re-election and thus abusing any power he has towards that goal. It could also be collusion in which Trump is trying to personally profit or have supporters profit. The security angle is theater. Many American corporations gather and abuse much more data than any allegations against TikTok and WeChat. And if people are really worried about foreign monitoring, then there are millions of cameras and microphones embedded in baby monitors, pet feeders, home security cameras, and other smart devices, all foreign made and networked. Some claims of influence could be made in TikTok, but there’s literally nothing stopping that from happening on platforms owned by U.S. companies, where it’s been proven to have happened and is still currently happening. So that argument doesn’t apply. If it does apply, it applies to a much broader app landscape than just TikTok and WeChat. So in the end, everyone debating this thing as if it is an actual intelligent thing to be discussed is just adding legitimacy to Trump grasping for re-election and another one of his chaotic moves. There are actual problems but those are only plastered onto this whole deal by externals. The president literally tried to treat this thing as if it was an episode of The Apprentice, demanding payment from the sale. It’s ludicrous. This is exactly what Adam Curtis means by Hypernormalization.
- Temasik 6y ago
  >gain 100 points on ccp's credit score
- asquabventured 6y ago
  How exactly does this move help him win reelection? I'm genuinely curious, I just don't see how this action would move anyone into a Trump vote who was previously not already planning to vote Trump.
  - bmitc 6y ago
    No one said it is an intelligent move. Just because it is a move doesn’t necessarily make it a good one. Trump is, hopefully, grasping for straws. He has tried to use the virus and now trade to tie into hate brooding in the country and use anti-Chinese sentiment to his advantage. Trump has specifically attacked Biden as being soft on China. It’s all a ploy, just like his shenanigans on the U.S. treasury being sent a cut of the sale of TikTok. The fact that there are legitimate issues external but related to Trump’s actions and proclamations does not legitimize them. I think it’s dangerous because people are underestimating just how hateful a lot of the U.S. is against foreigners and how whatever Trump is anti at the moment spreads like wildfire. Americans in general do not understand China or even how similar our government can be, and so it is easy to rally people against it.
- adventured 6y ago
  > Many American corporations gather and abuse much more data than any allegations against TikTok and WeChat. You're inventing a false premise with that setup. The issue with TikTok isn't primarily data collection unto itself. It's that they're owned by China (ie who is doing the data collecting), and without exception all large corporations in China are directly commanded by the CCP. They have CCP committees that 'advise' the boards and outline what the companies may or may not do at all times; primarily focused on major decisions, sensitive matters for the CCP, or matters of national strategy. The only reason ByteDance isn't selling TikTok for example, is because the CCP said they weren't allowed to because it would make China look weak; that's not a decision that is up to ByteDance, because they're not in control of anything ultimately. In China's dictatorship, all power by default rests with the CCP (and increasingly with future Chairman Xi's new cult of personality, as the purges have begun); that approach means they can do anything at any time for any reason. They even started hijacking boards in Hong Kong back in 2016: WSJ 2017: "Since 2016, at least 32 Chinese state-owned companies or units listed in Hong Kong have proposed changes to their corporate structures to install Communist Party committees that advise their boards of directors." [1] China isn't an ally of the US, they're a blend of enemy and super competitor. They don't freely allow US companies - such as Facebook, Google, Reddit, Twitter, Snapchat, Pinterest, Amazon AWS, and dozens of others - to operate inside of China. It's entirely reasonable to disallow some China-owned corporations from operating in the US as a matter of trade reciprocation. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/now-advising-chinas-state-firms-the-communist-party-1502703005 https://www.wsj.com/articles/now-advising-chinas-state-firms...
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    > The only reason ByteDance isn't selling TikTok for example, is because the CCP said they weren't allowed to because it would make China look weak; that's not a decision that is up to ByteDance, because they're not in control of anything ultimately. It's not because the "CCP" said they weren't allowed to. It's because the government of the People's Republic of China issued a new policy against exporting sensitive technology. The government obviously had ByteDance in mind, but this was a government policy issued in the normal way, not anything to do with Communist Party committees advising corporate boards. It's a response by the Chinese government to a measure taken by the American government against a Chinese company. > They don't freely allow US companies [...] to operate inside of China. A great many US companies freely operate inside China - many more than vice versa. China's economic development was largely driven by the "Reform and Opening-Up Policy." As the name suggests, a major part of that policy was allowing foreign companies to invest in China. Foreign companies did invest massively in China, gaining market access and taking advantage of Chinese labor. If you walk around any major Chinese city nowadays, you'll see the result: foreign companies are everywhere. Volkswagens, Hondas and Toyotas fill the streets. There's a Starbucks, McDonald's or KFC on every other corner. Everyone walks around with smartphones filled with American electronics. Chinese airlines fly fleets of Boeing and Airbus planes. The computers all run Windows or OS X. The idea that US companies can't operate in China is just very far from the reality, which is that US companies have a massive presence in China.

sg47 6y ago

Trump is somehow trying to make money out of this. He has repeatedly said money needs to be paid to the US Govt. By US Govt, given his corruption record, we'll have to assume it means him or his family.

mhh__ 6y ago
He has been able to pay quite a lot of money to his own pocket via his hotels and such, but I'm not sure whether they'd be that blatant.
- pavlov 6y ago
  Oracle seems to be getting a sweetheart deal from the government here, and Larry Ellison has donated substantial amounts to Trump's campaign. Maybe that's not outright corruption, but it would raise eyebrows in any Western democracy.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bigpumpkin 6y ago

The US government will try to reduce Chinese ownership in Tiktok. Bytedance will try to resist fire sales. What's the best compromise? Have an IPO in the US and have a lot of US investors in the deal, diluting Bytedance.

dylan604 6y ago
What if the the IPO happens but a single large/majority chunk of stock ends up being Chinese investors?
- arcticbull 6y ago
  That's business for ya. POTUS doesn't really care about anything other than optics. Claim the win, move on. We live in a post-fact world now.

mhh__ 6y ago

If this is their secret weapon for the election then it's not a very good one. If we make a simple division of the population into 4 groups, we'll have 1. People who are ambivalent i.e. don't care or aren't familiar with the app 2. People who are strongly against it for a variety of reasons 3. People who are in favour because it's a blow scored against the Chinese 4. People who are in favour due to their feelings about the app specifically It seems likely to me that the second grouping will be the largest. I don't think much will come of it but it will take much, much more than this to neuter China. It's not quite as vacuous "Build the wall" but it's not far off - if you want to battle china economically, get trading with their competitors (i.e. vote for centrists - Bernie is almost as protectionist as Trump)

sterlind 6y ago
I'm concerned about China's policy of heavy-handed protectionism and censorship internally while benefitting from global markets externally. But I don't like this tit-for-tat action by the US. Cutting off Tiktok will only further accelerate the balkanization of the internet. Keeping US companies from kataoing to the Chinese regime with special concessions (e.g. Dragonfly) and making services too important to easily firewall off (e.g. GitHub) seems like a better strategy. At least I hope so.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  > I'm concerned about China's policy of heavy-handed protectionism and censorship internally while benefitting from global markets externally. Foreign companies benefited enormously from the opening up of the Chinese market, and China is not nearly as protectionist as it's made out to be. Western media has trouble entering China because of political censorship, but Western businesses in general have very good market access. China is a very significant market for most major US tech companies.
  - philliphaydon 6y ago
    Western business do not have good market access. Just look at what’s happened with Disney. Spend years and years censoring movies and gaining favour of the CCP to get access to the market and a single movie ends up destroying their reputation overnight.

gscott 6y ago

Considering no one can get an app published in China from the US all Chinese founded apps should be banned until policy changes in China and US apps get approved.

mlindner 6y ago

Depends on whether they'll go through the full vetting process normally required for IPOing companies. Chinese companies have historically managed to refuse the vetting process when they're listed on US stock exchanges.