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This is exactly what I said. I don't find that you mention NSA ITT before my comment. Parent comment did mention them, and your response was the off-topic (for

This is exactly what I said. I don't find that you mention NSA ITT before my comment. Parent comment did mention them, and your response was the off-topic (for Tonkin, anyway) "CIA doesn't lie!" Neither supposed "attack" occurred! NSA reports were used to claim that they did occur! You don't think NSA has and is currently withholding information? Why don't you read what you pasted above? "Key pieces of evidence are missing"? If only the TLAs had the technology to preserve the information they gather... this is not credible. Even if NSA reports had said "there was definitely no Vietnamese attack", those reports were used by the executive branch to ramp up the war. The authors of those reports, and every superior of those authors up the chain to the president, would have had a duty to contradict the false claims. Of course this is fantasy. NSA doesn't oppose war, and its reports reflect this.

leftyted 6y ago
I don't think the intelligence agencies willfully produce false intelligence. They might be wrong but, as a matter of policy, they don't lie. I think the lying occurs higher up in the command structure where some intelligence is omitted from consideration because it doesn't fit the narrative the higher-ups are pursuing. I suppose there's a question here about who, exactly, is involved in this process of filtering out inconvenient information. Are those people part of the intelligence agency or not? This is a tricky question but, even if they are part of the intelligence agency, the pressure to omit comes from the executive branch. The NSA/CIA/etc aren't pursuing a pro-War policy...the executive branch is. For example, imagine someone in the CIA is asked to provide a report about the likelihood of Iraq having radioactive material that could be weaponized. This person performs diligent research and produces, to the best of their abilities, a factual report. The executive branch presents this report as a "slam dunk" which shows that Iraq has radioactive material. Who lied? Toward the end of your post, you blur the distinction between "lying" and "having a duty to contradict false claims". I'm only talking about lying although I agree that people do have an imperfect duty to contradict false claims.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  At least the DNI, and usually the D/CIA as well (these positions used to be the same one, and were only separated after we invaded), attends all presidential meetings that touch national security. I'll admit, any meeting with Cheney could spontaneously whip up a war from the ether, but even in his odious presence I think we have to hold these officials responsible for using their words. In every press conference announcing some fresh horrific stupid war, there are spooks present and they do receive direct questions. It would be better for humanity if they didn't lie when answering. Claims that CIA aren't pro-war and must be corrupted by evil presidents are pure fantasy. CIA have fought wars, by themselves, without telling the president. [0] [EDIT:] If you've reached the point that you're imagining that honest secret reports are overruled by the public statements and actions of dishonest elected officials, could you accept that the whole idea of government secrecy is mistaken? Why not have these conversations in the open? Surely we'd make better decisions? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
  - osobear 6y ago
    The CIA has a mandate to carry out clandestine operations in foreign nations, which includes arming local militias. Personally I'm pro-regime change, especially in Cold War Latin America, but that doesn't change anything.
    - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      Please, we need to stop these endless wars. Why is it people are voting for TRUMP of all people because they want our troops pulled out of Iraq (17 years), Afghanistan (19 years), and Syria (6 years). How is antiwar/anti-occupation a TRUMP thing and not a liberal/progressive tentpole issue? Why does the military industrial complex together with intelligence agencies fabricate lies to keep us embroiled forever in these evil endless wars? Every time we try and pull out there's a new BS story from these groups that everyone laps up: "Bounties on US soldiers! War is good! War is peace! War forever!"
      - 6y ago

leftyted 6y ago

I don't think the intelligence agencies willfully produce false intelligence. They might be wrong but, as a matter of policy, they don't lie. I think the lying occurs higher up in the command structure where some intelligence is omitted from consideration because it doesn't fit the narrative the higher-ups are pursuing. I suppose there's a question here about who, exactly, is involved in this process of filtering out inconvenient information. Are those people part of the intelligence agency or not? This is a tricky question but, even if they are part of the intelligence agency, the pressure to omit comes from the executive branch. The NSA/CIA/etc aren't pursuing a pro-War policy...the executive branch is. For example, imagine someone in the CIA is asked to provide a report about the likelihood of Iraq having radioactive material that could be weaponized. This person performs diligent research and produces, to the best of their abilities, a factual report. The executive branch presents this report as a "slam dunk" which shows that Iraq has radioactive material. Who lied? Toward the end of your post, you blur the distinction between "lying" and "having a duty to contradict false claims". I'm only talking about lying although I agree that people do have an imperfect duty to contradict false claims.

jessaustin 6y ago
At least the DNI, and usually the D/CIA as well (these positions used to be the same one, and were only separated after we invaded), attends all presidential meetings that touch national security. I'll admit, any meeting with Cheney could spontaneously whip up a war from the ether, but even in his odious presence I think we have to hold these officials responsible for using their words. In every press conference announcing some fresh horrific stupid war, there are spooks present and they do receive direct questions. It would be better for humanity if they didn't lie when answering. Claims that CIA aren't pro-war and must be corrupted by evil presidents are pure fantasy. CIA have fought wars, by themselves, without telling the president. [0] [EDIT:] If you've reached the point that you're imagining that honest secret reports are overruled by the public statements and actions of dishonest elected officials, could you accept that the whole idea of government secrecy is mistaken? Why not have these conversations in the open? Surely we'd make better decisions? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
- osobear 6y ago
  The CIA has a mandate to carry out clandestine operations in foreign nations, which includes arming local militias. Personally I'm pro-regime change, especially in Cold War Latin America, but that doesn't change anything.
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Please, we need to stop these endless wars. Why is it people are voting for TRUMP of all people because they want our troops pulled out of Iraq (17 years), Afghanistan (19 years), and Syria (6 years). How is antiwar/anti-occupation a TRUMP thing and not a liberal/progressive tentpole issue? Why does the military industrial complex together with intelligence agencies fabricate lies to keep us embroiled forever in these evil endless wars? Every time we try and pull out there's a new BS story from these groups that everyone laps up: "Bounties on US soldiers! War is good! War is peace! War forever!"
    - 6y ago