114 ms·

I had to read the paragraph a few times, but I think what is being said is that "Joe has hosted self proclaimed neo-Nazis'.

ithkuil 6y ago
oh sorry I totally misparsed the sentence
dkdk8283 6y ago
Which is completely acceptable. Everyone deserves the chance to talk. You don’t have listen.
- krageon 6y ago
  Everyone does not deserve the chance to talk. Pick up a history book, I think you will find some good examples for why Nazis do not deserve a platform or space to talk about their political views in society.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  No, it’s not. Everyone deserves the chance to talk, but everyone does not deserve to be broadcast to an audience of millions.
  - ithkuil 6y ago
    But they'll find a way to talk to like minded people; and then you'll be surprised how many of them there are. BTW, who are those millions you want to protect? Are you afraid otherwise sensible people will be infected by some opinions expressed on media? Isn't this a bit paternalistic? It's better to fight the enemy in the open field; let's have people talk and show who they are and what they actually mean by what they say. Let's criticize what is wrong with what they say and not just said by somebody that got lumped together in the same camp. Let's have an open a tolerant society, in which intolerance itself is exposed for what it is openly and not given ammunition by being intolerant of any people.
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      It has been shown over [1] and over [2] and over [3] again that deplatforming is effective. So yes, they'll still find a way to talk to like-minded people, but you're incorrect if you think there will be nearly as many. You're coming at this based on the idea that everyone is rational and sensible and (re)evaluates their views based on logic. Our brains don't work like that; literally all it takes for someone to warm up to an idea is being repeatedly exposed to it [4], and that's before you even get into things like confirmation bias/pleas to emotion/peer pressure/etc. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/study-finds-reddits-controversial-ban-of-its-most-toxic-subreddits-actually-worked/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/study-finds-reddits-contro... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/technology/alex-jones-infowars-bans-traffic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/technology/alex-jones-inf... [3] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-ba... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect
      - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
        Using this reason to censor ideas that you disagree with _will_ lead to censoring ideas that you do agree with. Power corrupts, and if people have the power to censor certain ideologies, that will be corrupted and exploited.
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        I’m not advocating for de jure censorship of Nazism. But a “power corrupts” hypothetical about stigmatization makes no sense — society writ large has always had that power and will always have that power. And yeah, it sucks that people on the margins of that such as sex workers get hurt, which is why we need to push to change those stigmas. But the alternative is letting open pedophiles teach your kids, or asking Jews to defeat their genocide-preaching Nazi coworkers in the “marketplace of ideas”. So all things considered it’s a fair trade.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      If sensible people are immune to racial and ethnic hatred, then why have we seen it all over the place throughout history. People should have seen right through Blood Libel and not massacred all those innocent jewish people, right? Of course not. Media and narratives matter. Fascism has succeeded in the past at murdering millions of people. There is no fundamental reason why it couldn't happen again.

ithkuil 6y ago

oh sorry I totally misparsed the sentence

dkdk8283 6y ago

Which is completely acceptable. Everyone deserves the chance to talk. You don’t have listen.

krageon 6y ago
Everyone does not deserve the chance to talk. Pick up a history book, I think you will find some good examples for why Nazis do not deserve a platform or space to talk about their political views in society.
jakelazaroff 6y ago
No, it’s not. Everyone deserves the chance to talk, but everyone does not deserve to be broadcast to an audience of millions.
- ithkuil 6y ago
  But they'll find a way to talk to like minded people; and then you'll be surprised how many of them there are. BTW, who are those millions you want to protect? Are you afraid otherwise sensible people will be infected by some opinions expressed on media? Isn't this a bit paternalistic? It's better to fight the enemy in the open field; let's have people talk and show who they are and what they actually mean by what they say. Let's criticize what is wrong with what they say and not just said by somebody that got lumped together in the same camp. Let's have an open a tolerant society, in which intolerance itself is exposed for what it is openly and not given ammunition by being intolerant of any people.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    It has been shown over [1] and over [2] and over [3] again that deplatforming is effective. So yes, they'll still find a way to talk to like-minded people, but you're incorrect if you think there will be nearly as many. You're coming at this based on the idea that everyone is rational and sensible and (re)evaluates their views based on logic. Our brains don't work like that; literally all it takes for someone to warm up to an idea is being repeatedly exposed to it [4], and that's before you even get into things like confirmation bias/pleas to emotion/peer pressure/etc. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/study-finds-reddits-controversial-ban-of-its-most-toxic-subreddits-actually-worked/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/study-finds-reddits-contro... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/technology/alex-jones-infowars-bans-traffic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/technology/alex-jones-inf... [3] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-bans-work https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjbp9d/do-social-media-ba... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect
    - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
      Using this reason to censor ideas that you disagree with _will_ lead to censoring ideas that you do agree with. Power corrupts, and if people have the power to censor certain ideologies, that will be corrupted and exploited.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        I’m not advocating for de jure censorship of Nazism. But a “power corrupts” hypothetical about stigmatization makes no sense — society writ large has always had that power and will always have that power. And yeah, it sucks that people on the margins of that such as sex workers get hurt, which is why we need to push to change those stigmas. But the alternative is letting open pedophiles teach your kids, or asking Jews to defeat their genocide-preaching Nazi coworkers in the “marketplace of ideas”. So all things considered it’s a fair trade.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    If sensible people are immune to racial and ethnic hatred, then why have we seen it all over the place throughout history. People should have seen right through Blood Libel and not massacred all those innocent jewish people, right? Of course not. Media and narratives matter. Fascism has succeeded in the past at murdering millions of people. There is no fundamental reason why it couldn't happen again.